To put this in perspective, at one point Shirou pulled a long katana out of his ass and mimicked Sasaki Kojiro. I can't remember if he [Tsubame Gaeshi]'d or not, but the important thing is that he could.

An attack that is basically and undodgeable, spacetime-bending, knockoff version of the Second Magic, at basically no prana cost. And that was him slumming it.
 
To put this in perspective, at one point Shirou pulled a long katana out of his ass and mimicked Sasaki Kojiro. I can't remember if he [Tsubame Gaeshi]'d or not, but the important thing is that he could.

An attack that is basically and undodgeable, spacetime-bending, knockoff version of the Second Magic, at basically no prana cost. And that was him slumming it.
He can't, but Sasaki!Shirou is a swordmaster that can solo a boss, so the difference is pretty minimal from the perspective of the players.
 
Lets be fair. If Shirou figured out a way to give other people Unlimited Blade Works, I'm pretty Kayaba would have a long, special, private moment. But then he would let Cardinal balance against everyone having all the magic swords. A title isn't a reward, though people are treating it that way.

Like, Kayaba would totally reward Shirou for doing that. But Shirou would probably also lose his title, since he found a way to give others the thing that made him special, and hence would no longer be special.
 
Lets be fair. If Shirou figured out a way to give other people Unlimited Blade Works, I'm pretty Kayaba would have a long, special, private moment. But then he would let Cardinal balance against everyone having all the magic swords. A title isn't a reward, though people are treating it that way.

Like, Kayaba would totally reward Shirou for doing that. But Shirou would probably also lose his title, since he found a way to give others the thing that made him special, and hence would no longer be special.
I'm pretty sure if Shirou managed to give other people a fucking reality marble Kayaba would need to be picked up off the ground.
 
I just reread the last few arcs of this, and can I just say that I love the character of Kuradeel? He's great. He was so bland in canon but here he's got an actual personality. I haven't seen anyone make such a radical transformation like that since Abridged, which... actually, might have happened second.
 
Yeah, Kuradeel is one of my favorites. He manages to pull off being edgy tryhard and cute puppy simultaneously, it's amazing. He could go "I AM KURADELL, DARK SHADOW OF THE BROTHERHOOD" and everybody would go "dawwwww".
 
...uh, no. If Shirou could teach everyone to do what he does, there would be no need for a [Title]. The purpose of [Titles] is to openly exclude specific players from the game's autobalancing, in order to avoid tall poppy syndrome. If everyone could spam hyperspecialized sword magic at everything, Cardinal would just slap +X% [Sword Resistance] on everything and force people to adapt appropriately. [Titles] exist so that people like Shirou can spam hyperspecialized sword magic without Cardinal introducing [Anti-Sword Turtles] to a world where not everyone can pull Kanshou and Bakuya out of their ass.
Lets be fair. If Shirou figured out a way to give other people Unlimited Blade Works, I'm pretty Kayaba would have a long, special, private moment. But then he would let Cardinal balance against everyone having all the magic swords. A title isn't a reward, though people are treating it that way.

Like, Kayaba would totally reward Shirou for doing that. But Shirou would probably also lose his title, since he found a way to give others the thing that made him special, and hence would no longer be special.


... I mean, this is ultimately a question only the author can answer lol

But I don't think I'd agree? The whole point is to encourage cool magecraft. Averting tall-poppy syndrome is just a side benefit.

Like, fundamentally, what is game balance? Why does game balance exist? It seems to me that the idea is to encourage a style of play, a style that we consider "legitimate." You're not supposed to be able to break the game by chaining intelligence potions or whatever, that isn't the intended playstyle; you're supposed to level up, make your numbers bigger, and also get more skilled at the gameplay itself. Intelligence potion recursion isn't how the game was built to be played, so it'd get patched out in a live game.

The point of game balance -- and of live rebalancing in MMOs -- is to reduce the reward and discourage people from even trying to break the game in the first place. 'Cause there's no point, it'll just get fixed next patch.

But in this case, the whole point is finding those exploits. SAO isn't, despite its appearance, a game "intended to be beaten by skill with swords." It's a game that's intended to be beaten by skill with magecraft. And that means that you don't want people thinking "man, this spell is so powerful it's unfair", that "I should be winning through leveling/swording better/gearing up" -- because even if they don't care about the game designer's intent, they'll also anticipate things like, yes, "if the meta shifts towards this one broken sword skill all the mobs are suddenly going to pick up sword resistance".

And then they won't bother trying.

Or, like, put it this way: in actual canon Aincrad, if somehow you threw in fucking Scathach or Chiron or some legendary tutor, and suddenly everyone legitimately had the sword skills of heroes and could chump the entire game that way, would the game "balance out" sword skills?

No, of course not. That would completely defeat the purpose of the game called "Sword Art Online". The game would compensate in non-specific ways instead, like just making all the numbers bigger. But you don't want to discourage people from using sword skills, even if that does "break the game" -- because that was how you wanted them to play in the first place.
 
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... I mean, this is ultimately a question only the author can answer lol

But I don't think I'd agree? The whole point is to encourage cool magecraft. Averting tall-poppy syndrome is just a side benefit.
Pretty sure Kayaba introduced [Titles] specifically in response to Diabel asking Shirou to dial it back lest he bring down the balance hammer on all of them. Cool magecraft is already encouraged through exotic challenges requiring exotic solutions, plus meaty xp bonuses for spell development and spell sharing.

Also, Shirou doesn't have any cool magecraft, to put it bluntly. The vast majority of what he does is, as far as the playerbase can tell, just being really good at basics like Reinforcement, plus an insane amount of personal combat ability. If the purpose of giving him his [Title] was to promote cool new magecraft, it was an abject failure from the start and Kayaba might as well have given one to the Slime Farmer.
 
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Shirou's magecraft is the basics taken up to a ridiculous level and amplified through a reality marble.

This doesn't seem particularly flashy or impressive but it is.
 
you know, out of the what 10000 people who play this game, only 3 are mage

kinda though there would be a few more in there
 
... I mean, this is ultimately a question only the author can answer lol

But I don't think I'd agree? The whole point is to encourage cool magecraft. Averting tall-poppy syndrome is just a side benefit.

Like, fundamentally, what is game balance? Why does game balance exist? It seems to me that the idea is to encourage a style of play, a style that we consider "legitimate." You're not supposed to be able to break the game by chaining intelligence potions or whatever, that isn't the intended playstyle; you're supposed to level up, make your numbers bigger, and also get more skilled at the gameplay itself. Intelligence potion recursion isn't how the game was built to be played, so it'd get patched out in a live game.

The point of game balance -- and of live rebalancing in MMOs -- is to reduce the reward and discourage people from even trying to break the game in the first place. 'Cause there's no point, it'll just get fixed next patch.

But in this case, the whole point is finding those exploits. SAO isn't, despite its appearance, a game "intended to be beaten by skill with swords." It's a game that's intended to be beaten by skill with magecraft. And that means that you don't want people thinking "man, this spell is so powerful it's unfair", that "I should be winning through leveling/swording better/gearing up" -- because even if they don't care about the game designer's intent, they'll also anticipate things like, yes, "if the meta shifts towards this one broken sword skill all the mobs are suddenly going to pick up sword resistance".

And then they won't bother trying.

Or, like, put it this way: in actual canon Aincrad, if somehow you threw in fucking Scathach or Chiron or some legendary tutor, and suddenly everyone legitimately had the sword skills of heroes and could chump the entire game that way, would the game "balance out" sword skills?

No, of course not. That would completely defeat the purpose of the game called "Sword Art Online". The game would compensate in non-specific ways instead, like just making all the numbers bigger. But you don't want to discourage people from using sword skills, even if that does "break the game" -- because that was how you wanted them to play in the first place.

While this is true to an extent, I think that you've got the purpose of the game slightly wrong. It's not just to have the player's beat the game with magecraft, it seems much more to have the players become *skilled* with magecraft. Then beating the game with magecraft is almost a side effect.

I think SAO in this is effectively a tutorial for magecraft. If the players cheese the entirety of it with one neat but limited trick then it wouldn't really have served it's purpose?

Your example isn't exactly relevant because the purposes of the two games are so different. Presumably at least. I don't know if we were ever actually told what the canon reason for it was.
 
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Pretty sure Kayaba introduced [Titles] specifically in response to Diabel asking Shirou to dial it back lest he bring down the balance hammer on all of them. Cool magecraft is already encouraged through exotic challenges requiring exotic solutions, plus meaty xp bonuses for spell development and spell sharing.

It's interesting to me that you see things things this way when I'm pretty sure you were in TFF's idea thread when Daniel explained to us what Titles were meant to represent.

I mean, if Arturia Pendragon was a player, do you really think she wouldn't have a Title just because technically anyone can lean Prana Brust and pick up a Sword?

Would Sasaki Koujiro have a Title even if he doesn't really use Magecraft at all?

Because the thing is, I think nobody in this chapter got it right because I'm pretty sure that Saber would have a Title and Koujiro wouldn't.

Because as fucking broken and irrepeatable as Koujiro was... he isn't using Magecraft. And the Death Game is all about Magecraft.

Kayaba doesn't approve, like at all, if you break the game using the physics system or swordsmanship or engineering or whatnot.

You can be smashed to bits by the [Nerf Hammer] for all he cares if you're doing that.

Meanwhile, while Saber is doing things that technically are just brute-forcing strength by extruding Prana like crazy... Not everyone can be Saber.

And Kayaba wants you to try and be Saber. The last thing he wants is people being afraid of trying to be Saber or Shirou or any other Magecraft-using freak because of [Cardinal].

Also, I don't think that giving everyone Unlimited Blade Works would make them better at using it than Shirou, or even anywhere close to it.

I'm pretty sure that Shirou would still be broken, because UBW it's the crystallization of who he is and he is the protagonist on top, but I can't really say the same about others.

So, yeah, Shirou isn't completely correct, but he has a point about Klein's approach to killing bosses and why it won't ever get him a Title.

EDIT: Yeah, in retrospect, I'm replying less to the segment I quoted and more to your first post about this.

Also, Shirou doesn't have any cool magecraft, to put it bluntly. The vast majority of what he does is, as far as the playerbase can tell, just being really good at basics like Reinforcement, plus an insane amount of personal combat ability. If the purpose of giving him his [Title] was to promote cool new magecraft, it was an abject failure from the start and Kayaba might as well have given one to the Slime Farmer.

That's because Kirito's theory is entirely based on his understanding of Kayaba and not at all in actual evidence.

I mean, there are two Titled players, one is basically everything a normal player is but more (Shirou) and the other is a girl that got so lucky with the RNG that he thinks she is in cahoots with the GM.

That's it.

Kayaba does know about Shirou's "database" though, he is aware that he does in fact have something unique about him, that he has like the coolest of Magecrafts.

So far Kirito's theory checks out, doesn't it?

But what about Ilya? I mean, for other players, her Title is just something born out of her luck or shady connections, isn't it?

Oh, but Kayaba know who she is. He know that, even if she doen't have any right now, there is nothing stopping her from building a Familiar Army, begin twisting the simulated geomancy of a floor, making a bullshit Formalcraft ritual or any other normal magus method to break his game like a wet noodle.

Ilya has the skill of a Sorceress, even if she doesn't actually care enough to do anything with it.

Take into account... These are things anyone can do. I didn't mention anything that would be a particular secret of the Eizenberns or depending on their Sorcery Traits or anything like that. She is just that good.

If tomorrow Ilya decides to do any of that, Kayaba wants the players to imitate her, not to cower in fear of upsetting the GM.


As for the future... Let's return to my previous example:

First, we'll leave Saber aside because she is too special.

If Sasaki Koujiro, a mundane human with a sword, was a player... Could any of the other players get as good as him if he honestly tried to teach them the Tsubame Gaeshi?

No, because not everyone will have what it takes or the will to spend their time and effort on something as insane as that.

If someone, let's say Kirito, gets really good with normal, run of the mill Magecraft instead of a very long sword... Do you think Kayaba is going to punish the rest of the players for it? Or will instead give them a Title regardless of how "cool" or "irrepeatable" their Magecraft is.

Remember that Magecraft is much more idiosyncratic than swordsmanship, even if you stick to things everyone can do, it's much easier for you to be the only one who can be as good as you are in something.

And given that what matters to him is how good/effective you are at Magecraft and not how good a killer you are... Do you really think he won't give Titles to people dedicated to research or crafting if they actually achieve something that he thinks is worthy of it?

I mean, Slime Breeder is cool and all, but he is just like Klein. He is doing basic genetics and playing around with game mechanics at this point.

His Magecraft research is shit.

Like, why would Kayaba give him a Title? What has he done to deserve it?

From his perspective, Shirou is doing shit even he doesn't understand. Slime Breeder? Is he even making anything apart from basic potions and explosives?
 
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Amusingly, I've heard this complaint about the Evangelion remake with Asuka's family name of Zeppelin... when that's an actual German last name (albeit, not a common one).

That was the original, the main change to her name in the remakes was that her last name was Shikinami instead of Soryu.
 
Could we all just accept that Kayaba might have more than one reason for why he does things?

I can do that.

Though as far as title based immunity goes would Shirou's super swords qualify? He made them as a titled player, but he isn't using them. They are also spread out enough that balancing can be done without making playing without one non viable.

I see a few things for titles that he would probably consider:
1: outliers. Shirou has enough combat skill that anything that is specced for him will make melee combat unusable for pretty much anyone else. Iliya has enough prana that adjusting for her just screws everyone else over.

2: reward for cool stuff. Kabaya wants to encourage you to find exploits and new tricks. We wishes to encorage this behavior.

3: cooperation. There are bonuses for spreading your magecraft. This helps prevent some of the hoarding mentality he wants to go against.

I don't think Klien would get a title from this simply because it isn't something unique to him. Any player group could put together a explosive boat. He wouldn't want to discourage innovation, but cardinal can balance against it without ruining the game. I could see him deliberately helping with Klien's stuff because it is in the real world and development of magitech would be something he would encourage as it is a path that is largely unused by the magus community at large. Kabaya uses magitech, so it is obviously a valid method of advancement.
 
I mean, if Arturia Pendragon was a player, do you really think she wouldn't have a Title just because technically anyone can lean Prana Brust and pick up a Sword?
No, they can't. Arturia is a genetically-engineered demi-dragon who powers her sword with magic jet-fuel farts. That's not something Klein can learn.

Would Sasaki Koujiro have a Title even if he doesn't really use Magecraft at all?
Yes, because if he didn't have a [Title], the game would break as Cardinal auto-balanced around the guy who specced so hard into [Basic Attack] that he broke the space-time continuum. If Sasaki Kojirou - that is to say, someone who is somehow utterly busted even without magecraft - was in SAO, Kayaba would need to give him a [Title] or (more likely) just pull the guy out of the game entirely.

Kayaba doesn't approve, like at all, if you break the game using the physics system or swordsmanship or engineering or whatnot.

You can be smashed to bits by the [Nerf Hammer] for all he cares if you're doing that.
It does not matter whether [Sasaki Stand-In] gets hit with the [Nerf Hammer]. Kayaba doesn't need the [Nerf Hammer] to specifically hit the [Sasaki Stand-In], because he can console-teleport the guy into a bottomless volcano if the whim takes him. The reason to exclude people from the [Nerf Hammer], which is what a [Title] does, is because the [Nerf Hammer] hits everyone, not just the [Sasaki Stand-In]. This produces a perverse incentive to underperform and avoid new "exploits" in the magecraft system, which isn't what Kayaba wants.

The answer to the question "why didn't Klein et al get a [Title]" is "because their achievements didn't need exclusion from the [Nerf Hammer]". That's it. The missile they launched could have been a magic genie-powered slime bomber from Atlantis, and they still wouldn't get a [Title] if it didn't need exclusion from the [Nerf Hammer].
 
Yes, because if he didn't have a [Title], the game would break as Cardinal auto-balanced around the guy who specced so hard into [Basic Attack] that he broke the space-time continuum. If Sasaki Kojirou - that is to say, someone who is somehow utterly busted even without magecraft - was in SAO, Kayaba would need to give him a [Title] or (more likely) just pull the guy out of the game entirely.
I think you've internalized Kayaba's patch note about Titled players being exempt from game balancing, when that's not necessarily Kayaba's intent.
 
Except, and this is the third time, Kayaba doesn't need Titles to make players immune to balancing. He can fiddle with Cardinal behind the scenes; he could make it completely ignore something, or reduce or amplify it's balancing scrutiny towards something or another as he sees fit. And it's not like player could tell the difference seeing how reactive balance is not something witnessed and quantified within player community.

Kayaba doesn't want overall playerbase to suffer from excellence of one player, and he wants said player to be rewarded for same excellence instead of having it patched out. This is not accomplished by Titles, this is accomplished by not letting Cardinal do its thing, and for that Kayaba doesn't need to give players tons of buffs and bitching nametag. Kayaba wants to assure people that OP players won't make everyone's lives harder, and he wants to reward those who have the best results - which is what Titles do. As I've said earlier, former thing is already accomplished with introduction of Titles so players don't have to worry about certain people becoming too powerful* and is as such not something he needs to give Titles for anymore, so there is only one reason left for Titles to exists - Kayaba rewarding excellence and thus promoting behavior he wants to see.

And I have no idea why are we having multiple pages of discussion on this subject, but here we are.

*In practice Kayaba will likely tweak challenges to react to increased power level and provide players experience he wants them to have
 
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