I was in the middle of typing up a whole thing about how unlikely that was and how Archer and Saber were unique exceptions, but then I remembered how in F/GO he got possessed by Muramasa, so while I don't think he'd be capable of general Invocation, he'd probably be able to invoke any of those three if he put his mind to it. Probably others with a connection to the forging of swords and maybe other weapons. It'd still be in the context of his element, as it kinda cripples him as a magus when he works outside it, but if he studied it I don't see any reason he couldn't succeed.
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Fate/Revelation Online
- Thread starter daniel_gudman
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...you know, Miyuverse!Shirou managed to summon EMIYA into the blank/dud Archer Class Card. Does it count, I have no idea, but it sure sounds like Evocation?...
Doesn't Shirou have this thing where Traced weapons act as skillsofts for him already?
Yeah, see the discussion about Invocation (False)
Hmm, it might be, in fact I'm pretty sure that is an example of Spiritual Invocation, or possibly just Summoning, but considering EMIYA is an alternate version of himself, I don't think that counts as a sign of talent in Spiritual Invocation/Evocation, rather than just another unique exception. I'm leaning towards unique exception because... well, it's him. They start to Synchornize just by being nearby, and that's basically Invocation 101, suicidal bootlegged edition. Plus, as I understand it, Prisma Illya tends to work a bit differently than the mainstream Nasuverse, so it should generally be taken with a grain of salt.
Kind of, yeah. See above. It's not really Spiritual Evocation because it's just a deeper part of himself he's evoking, but even then its the weapons and their histories he's working off of, so he's still working within his element. Or, put another way, Shirou's way of doing things is metaphorically tapping Od for power. Spiritual Invocation is when you gather Mana for power. They're similar, but dissimilar enough that the fact that Shirou can channel Od doesn't mean that he can gather mana, as seen in the first floor boss room. Maybe not the best metaphor, given we're talking about magecraft and I'm comparing it to another type of magecraft, but I'll take it.
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The thing that confuses me is that Gray is also classed as a Sibyl, and she kind of demonstrated it by having glimpses of Faker's life/motivations in her dreams, despite them only having a brief encounter beforehand. But I didn't think that Gray specifically channels Artoria's spirit at all, more like she was made as an "imitation" or "effigy" of her, but Artoria herself isn't present in even a spiritual sense.
Yes. But as far as can be seen, that happened and was only possible because of her status as a natural Sibyl. Probably, anyway. Both of her transformations coincide with one of Artoria's summonings, so saying there's no connection there is ridiculous. It seems to be a more advanced version of what happened to Shriou when he was near Archer - even though the synchronization ended once Archer returned to the Throne, Shriou still had access to the thirty years worth of experience that he absorbed from the Counter Guardian, despite said spirit's departure and the end of the Synchronization effect. Same with Gray, even though Artoria is no longer present she's left with the after effects. It's worth noting that the differences between Shirou and Archer were matters of experience and aging, so its possible that the synchronization between the two of them was no less advanced, but manifested differently because of that. There is also some evidence against this in Prisma Illya, when Miyuverse Shriou's hair turns white from overusing Archer's magecraft, but, as mentioned, PI runs on different rules than the rest of the Nasuverse, so it's rather flimsy.
In conclusion, Gray's a natural Sibyl who's powers caused her to became an "effigy" of Artoria because Artoria was Saber at the time. She still has her original Sibyl powers, but she's also be engraved with Artoria's essence, which has other benefits. The odd thing about this is that it happened automatically, rather than being a result of intentional thaumaturgy, though Gray did grow up in a cult that practiced magecraft and wanted to restore Artoria, so perhaps I'm missing something.
tl:dr She's both a Sibyl and an "effigy of Artoria." The later is very probably a result of the former.
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Fairly certain the info doesn't stay permanently, but don't remember where I saw it, so currently looking for it, will come back later.
Isn't that in case of Avalon sheath?
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No, IIRC it was mentioned in the same interview where the matter of how long it would take to master UBW came up, and how the Shirou from the UBW route has a headstart but still needs to work up to be able to replicate what he did against Gilgamesh.
Will look further tomorrow.
Will look further tomorrow.
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Assuming it does fade, that just means that the phenomenon Gray underwent was more advanced. Not particularly surprising, Gray is a natural Sibyl and Shirou isn't, and the reaction that she underwent physically altered her entire body and facial structure, while Shirou just got some memories and skills. Though I feel like there's an element I'm missing. Shriou was reacting to himself in fairly close proximity, and only got mental and spiritual changes that may have proven temporary. Gray was in proximity with a Noble Phantasm of a distant realtive of hers whom she was reacting to, with said distant relative being on another continent. Even if she's a natural Sibyl, I feel like I'm missing something that made the changes so deep and permeant. Maybe the village's cult created a Foundation that enhanced it, but my gut says I'm missing something. Logically, I think I'm drastically underestimating how much easier spiritual invocation is for a Sibyl. That might be it. Lord El Melloi II did say that it's sometimes called Sibyl's magecraft because of their affinity for it. And the way she could percieve the cat's residual thoughts when Lord El-Melloi II had no idea, even though he's a trained (but ordinary) magus and Gray's skills aren't... exactly nonexistent, but so simplistic and basic she's not even recognized as a mage at all. Hmm. Yes, the more I think about it the more I come to believe that I am underestimating the importance of innate traits to magecraft, much like Waver did.
Not quite. She didn't originally look like Artoria or have the power to use the Holy Lance. That came later. After Kiritsugu summoned Artoria as Saber, Gray underwent a sudden, long, and extremely painful transformation that left her visually identical to the King of Knights, save for her hair, and also gave her the abilities to reinforce herself beyond what modern magecraft allows for and to use Rhongomyniad. Ad also woke up at this time. After Shirou summons Saber, Gray's body underwent a second transformation, which turned her hair blond and gave her a Dragon Core. If it was the breeding alone then she would have had both of those from the start.
Unless your point was that the eugenics program was my hypothetical "missing element" that caused her to transform so dramatically and permanently. In which case, I suppose that could work, but, at a risk of repeating myself, Shriou was literally reacting to himself. It's hard to imagine that any level of careful breeding can compare to that in terms of compatibility. Though if they augmented it with magecraft, then maybe.... it could work. Maybe. Magi have done crazier things to their bloodlines, I suppose.
This. Also, from what I've heard it was kinda like an Illya or Justeaze situation where they were left scratching their heads as she was a total fluke and they have no idea why this one was so perfect for their goals. She wasn't an intentional creation.
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If I had to guess why that's the case, I'd wager that Gray, Illya, and Justeaze were born/made with the exact Origin their makers needed, and in Gray's case, she was born at right time to be alive during both of Artoria's summonings. Whether that was chance or something deeper, I'll refrain from speculating on.
As to
I'm going to reverse my earlier position of "Shirou would be good at Invocation" and say that it could be that Shirou (possibly due to having a Reality Marble or just due to being crummy in other areas) is so truly untalented at Invocation it could be more accurately called anti-talent, to the point where being in the same city as his future-self only got him a spotty impression of surface thoughts, and eventually learning how to manifest the same magecraft after having it effectively be stabbed into him (copying the skills with a sword seems more akin to how UBW normally functions), and anyone else in his situation would have had a stronger reaction.
And Accel/Zero Order?
Where two Wavers met? And, I think, no transfer of info beyond passing on the Zhuge Liang?
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Ah right, forgot about that. Nevermind then, I guess most people don't get anything out of their own alt-future self showing up no matter how weird that seems, like you'd think it'd kind of be a Touko thing where they're treated as being the same person but no.
Some rather intense meetings at that, with direct magical and physical interactions. Shirou barely got anything in Fate route, and he wouldn't have been much different in HF if Archer wasn't so willing to lend the guy a hand.
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Honestly, it might be possible that Kayaba will skip over Invocation the same reason he's avoiding any Grail War stuff, because he has the judgment to not invite more trouble than he can handle. Like I'm not really sure what Sword Art Online counts as in Nasu Metaphysics, like an illusion or a dream or something else, but I could see that resulting in any Spirits people invoke having a disproportionate influence and not being bound by Kayaba's rules (since I'm not sure even Cardinal's abilities as a simulation are up to the task of generating fake spirits for players to practice invocation with).