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Fate/Revelation Online

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daniel_gudman said:
"Well, look." Kirito said, as he considered how to say it. "It's like… being able to solo a Boss is a symptom, but that's just the obvious thing. Like… suppose someone came up with a spell like [Avada Kedavra] or something, that anyone with enough Dark Side Points could use to whack anybody, Boss or not." He gestured vaguely with his hands. "The game would balance against it by giving every [Boss] like, flying Adds that would soak them, or protection against instadeath, or whatever, right?"

Kirito nodded in certainty. "But if it's something that one-and-only-one person could do, then that person would get a Title, and the game would just throw up it's hands and stop trying to balance against them, at the cost to everyone else."
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The paragraph break here confused me as to who was talking, briefly.

daniel_gudman said:
the game would just throw up it's hands and stop trying to balance against them, at the cost to everyone else."
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The comma here reverses the meaning, I think? Kirito means to say the game won't penalize others just to balance against a single player. As it stands, he could be read as saying that game stops trying to balance against a single player, which costs everyone else.

daniel_gudman said:
Kirito forcibly changed the subject back.
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...did it ever change away?

daniel_gudman said:
Whether that meant that someone could only unlock one of if one could only be unlocked by one person ever had been a fierce and completely hypothetical debate.
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I'd suggest replacing "someone" with "each player", and "one could" with "each skill could". Minor, but just for clarity.

Also, typo on "of" instead of "or".

daniel_gudman said:
Kirito had reached his conclusion. "So go reread the announcement. 'In recognition of their unique achievements'…. that's why Players get [Titles]. And then bonus XP to spell development." He shook his head. "The [Magecraft System] is full of bad unfair RNG. This just… it feels like a kludge to me, something that got forced in, a compromise with the fairness of a balanced game and whatever the [Magecraft System] is supposed to be doing."
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Not sure I follow Kirito's logic to his conclusion as easily as Argo apparently does.

The crux of this monologue is Kirito saying: "Kayaba told us outright what the qualifications for Titles were, don't try reading between the lines". All the preceding talk about Extra/Unique Skills/Spells - and then the following aside about spell development bonus xp - just feels like padding, a distraction that left me stumbling to draw a straight line through Kirito's thought process. Point 1) Kayaba's a stickler for precise terminology, Point 2) Here's a largely unrelated anecdote about the naming scheme for skills and spells, Point 3) Kayaba outright stated what Titles were given for, Point 4) Therefore Titles feel like a kludge?

And then the waters are muddied further by having Shirou come in and give his own, almost completely wrong theory. While also being weirdly judgemental about magecraft enhancing mundane technology, for a guy who spent his youth using structural analysis to fix space heaters. It sets up a great punchline, but it's also confusing in its placement.

The fundamental idea of this sequence is "Asuna/Argo present the mainstream assumption of what [Titles] mean, and then Kirito points out that Kayaba told them what they mean and then suggests that it's to avoid tall poppy syndrome/group punishment", yes? At the moment you've got 1) Asuna/Argo's mainstream assumptions, 2) Kirito states that [Titles] exist to avoid tall poppy syndrome, 3) Kirito waffles for a bit, 4) Kirito points out that Kayaba told them what [Titles] mean, 5) Kirito states that it feels like a kludge, 6) Shirou wanders in and contradicts them both while being wrong.

I'd suggest having Shirou show up earlier, to give his thoughts before Kirito - or outright replacing his input with Argo making a magecraft-centric counter-suggestion to Asuna's assumption that it's solo-ing a boss that wins a [Title], since it's not as though Shirou is overwhelmingly suited to pushing a pure magus mindset, or otherwise adds much to the scene except his speedo. Then you've got 1) Asuna's mainstream assumption, 2) Argo playing devil's advocate by suggesting a magecraft requirement, 3) Kirito claims that it's for unique game-breaking stuff, 4) Kirito points out Kayaba specifically told them it was for that, 5) The group discuss tall poppy syndrome/group punishment in the context of Cardinal's autobalancing (and the ability to proliferate "gamebreaking" spells that aren't unique), 6) Kirito concludes it's a kludge between a balanced game and not wanting to slow down/punish... whatever the Magecraft System is. And then fit in Shirou's speedo somewhere.
 
I wouldn't say that Shirou is wrong, necessarily. Ultimately, requirement for a Title is doing something that would cause balance shift while also being something Kayaba wants to reward. In conversation we just witnessed, Kirito was more on the balance side because that's one thing players were told, while Shirou assumed that Kayaba, as a magi, would very much like his players to focus onto practical magic research(so magic advances) as opposed to impractical magic research(such as exploding ships, which Kayaba personally has no use for).

Now, remember what I've said earlier - Kayaba doesn't need Titles to mess with balance. If he wants to make it so Klein's shit doesn't make Cardinal introduce damage limits/break bars he can just do it without giving Klein a Title. In this way I do think that Shirou is correct and that balance immunity is not main purpose of Title, but simply something Kayaba would do anyway. Title is just his way of initializing people to excel and giving them something to strive for. Shirou is still making an assumption that Kayaba would only reward "real" magic stuff, which is not necessarily true even if it is a fair assumption to make in his position.
 
Wolfy said:
"So let me get this Shirou. Just give me an yes or no. You are an orphan?"

"Yes."

"And you live alone in big mansion with your young teacher guardian."

"Yes."

"And you have bunch of cute girls coming to live with you."

"Um, yes?"

"And you like helping others."

"Of course."

"And your favorite weapon is sword?"

"Yeah."

"Aaaand that's five, we've won protagonist bingo Kiribou!"


Btw, this is Fate route Shirou, so he also had threesome with Saber and Rin lmao. "I've Thought That My Sensei Is Innocent But He's Actually A Huge Pervert?"
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You also forgot to mention the "has a 'younger' sister not related by blood" part. :V
 
Wolfy said:
I wouldn't say that Shirou is wrong, necessarily. Ultimately, requirement for a Title is doing something that would cause balance shift while also being something Kayaba wants to reward. In conversation we just witnessed, Kirito was more on the balance side because that's one thing players were told, while Shirou assumed that Kayaba, as a magi, would very much like his players to focus onto practical magic research(so magic advances) as opposed to impractical magic research(such as exploding ships, which Kayaba personally has no use for).

Now, remember what I've said earlier - Kayaba doesn't need Titles to mess with balance. If he wants to make it so Klein's shit doesn't make Cardinal introduce damage limits/break bars he can just do it without giving Klein a Title. In this way I do think that Shirou is correct and that balance immunity is not main purpose of Title, but simply something Kayaba would do anyway. Title is just his way of initializing people to excel and giving them something to strive for. Shirou is still making an assumption that Kayaba would only reward "real" magic stuff, which is not necessarily true even if it is a fair assumption to make in his position.
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While you're correct that balance immunity is not the main purpose of titles, there is an aspect to it that I think you've missed. Titles inform players that certain people have balance immunity. If you remember there was a chapter where Diabel sat Shirou down and asked him to stop overpowering every obstacle the game throws at the front line because it might make Cardinal start balancing against him, which would get everyone else killed. Titles were added to the game in the very next patch.
 
Prent said:
While you're correct that balance immunity is not the main purpose of titles, there is an aspect to it that I think you've missed. Titles inform players that certain people have balance immunity. If you remember there was a chapter where Diabel sat Shirou down and asked him to stop overpowering every obstacle the game throws at the front line because it might make Cardinal start balancing against him, which would get everyone else killed. Titles were added to the game in the very next patch.
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I am aware, but that has no bearing on Shirou being right or wrong about why Klein should or should not be eligible for a Title.
 
Revlid said:
And then the waters are muddied further by having Shirou come in and give his own, almost completely wrong theory. While also being weirdly judgemental about magecraft enhancing mundane technology, for a guy who spent his youth using structural analysis to fix space heaters. It sets up a great punchline, but it's also confusing in its placement.
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Shirou isn't wrong, though?

The fundamental point of Titles isn't to protect any and all game-breaking exploits, even if they're unique. If you find a flaw in the simulation or hack a admin panel or something, that's nice and all but that isn't what Kayaba's trying to encourage. Kayaba is (not that the main cast know it, but it's been heavily implied) trying to get the playerbase to invent cool magecraft and generally be great magi; being great magitech-engineers qualifies, but just cutting corners on something that's fundamentally mundane doesn't.

Or like, if someone managed to make Bootleg SHEBA or something within the game, that would totally be Title-worthy even if half the work was done by mundane computers, so long as they also rediscovered spiritrons and spiritron computing, I think?
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Shirou isn't wrong, though?

The fundamental point of Titles isn't to protect any and all game-breaking exploits, even if they're unique. If you find a flaw in the simulation or hack a admin panel or something, that's nice and all but that isn't what Kayaba's trying to encourage. Kayaba is (not that the main cast know it, but it's been heavily implied) trying to get the playerbase to invent cool magecraft and generally be great magi; being great magitech-engineers qualifies, but just cutting corners on something that's fundamentally mundane doesn't.

Or like, if someone managed to make Bootleg SHEBA or something within the game, that would totally be Title-worthy even if half the work was done by mundane computers, so long as they also rediscovered spiritrons and spiritron computing, I think?
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Quite.

Basically, if people start just throwing missles at every boss, Kayaba's just going to let Cardinal come up with anti-missile measures, or otherwise build the bosses so that stops being a good tactic, or alternatively starts building bosses so that it's an assume first strike tactic.

A title is something that isn't balanced for, because balancing for it would screw everyone else. Everyone else can just get gud and start making missiles. Everyone else can't just get gud and start using Unlimited Blade Works.
 
Shard_486 said:
Or, in Illya's case, be a Homunculus geared for making magical energy.
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Just learn to create Homunculi, create one geared for bullshit levels of magical throughput and then copy/place your mind into it. It's simple. Revoke the title!

At least, if the people who pick out the names for the Einzberns can do it, it must be simple. (Or maybe "Foreigner trying to exaggerate what European names sound like to them" is just the big thing in naming for the big magus families.)
 
LunaticPanda said:
At least, if the people who pick out the names for the Einzberns can do it, it must be simple.
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? What do you mean by this ?
LunaticPanda said:
"Foreigner trying to exaggerate what European names sound like to them" is just the big thing in naming for the big magus families.
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That's just how Nasu, well, all of Japan, rolls when it comes to inventing names.

[Insert rant about Mashu Matthew Kyrielight and it supposedly sounding European]
 
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LunaticPanda said:
Just learn to create Homunculi, create one geared for bullshit levels of magical throughput and then copy/place your mind into it. It's simple. Revoke the title!

At least, if the people who pick out the names for the Einzberns can do it, it must be simple. (Or maybe "Foreigner trying to exaggerate what European names sound like to them" is just the big thing in naming for the big magus families.)
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Einzberns are THE homunculus-makers, though? Like, a guy who was given scraps of their designs got really, really good at coining them (Gordes Music Yggdmillenia), and he wasn't actually on their level.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Or like, if someone managed to make Bootleg SHEBA or something within the game, that would totally be Title-worthy even if half the work was done by mundane computers, so long as they also rediscovered spiritrons and spiritron computing, I think?
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Maybe? I guess it depends on if it's something only that person can do, or if it's something that can be passed along to others, to go with Kirito's earlier example with Avada Kedavra. Like if someone does manage to discover Spiriton Computing and pass it along to other people than the game itself will grow to reflect that, probably because Kayaba will be really into the subject and want to crowdsource research into it, but if it's something only one person can do then he just wants to make sure they keep doing it.

Though one thing I'm not sure of is if Kirito's explanation catches on, will that actually damage the whole "share your magical knowledge thing" by having players be more wary about passing on spells thinking it will disqualify them from getting a title, or is there a way to prove that Cardinal knows what can and can't be learned by others? And if it is the latter, that you only get a Title for doing something that only you can do then... I'm not really sure how common Titles can be? In Nasu, spells seem mostly intended to be passed down family lines and kept secret to stop other people from learning them, so even with that, there's only a handful of people whose abilities are idiosyncratic to the point of being unique, right?
Like I know from the spoiler thread of at least one more example of unique abilities will be coming up in the future, but I don't really know if there's anything say, Kirito can do that Kayaba himself can't.
 
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As a general rule, magi effectively become the only people capable of whatever it is they can do pretty quickly -- or, at least, on magus timescales. This is because magecraft is bonkers hard and you need generations to get anywhere, so ... well, it's sort of like getting a Ph.D. Nobody's going to laud you as some legendary scientist for getting your doctorate, but it's nevertheless true that, by definition, at the moment you publish your thesis you are the world expert on some single narrow topic.

Except with magi, the barrier for other people to actually use your work usually involves major physical changes and eugenics programs, so...
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Shirou isn't wrong, though?
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He might not be wrong, but he certainly isn't right. Not in any meaningful sense. The fundamental reason Klein (and co) didn't get [Title(s)] isn't because their magecraft wasn't pure enough, it's because other players can reproduce their work, and so bosses can be generated on the assumption of access to [Sea-to-Ground Missiles] without massively penalizing the playerbase as a whole. The objection that their magecraft wasn't pure enough is a pointless/redundant one, because magecraft is the only route to non-reproducible player-generated effects of that magnitude in the first place. The only other examples it's possible to come up with are legitimate bug exploits, which Cardinal would obviously just patch out.

The qualifier for a [Title] is a "non-reproducible thing that can break the game", and the Venn Diagram of "non-reproducible things that can break the game" and "magecraft" is just a smaller circle inside a larger circle. Quibbling over whether something was magecraft enough is putting the cart before the horse, so from a Doylist perspective, having Shirou inject this irrelevant objection as the "last word" is a mistake.

linkhyrule5 said:
The fundamental point of Titles isn't to protect any and all game-breaking exploits, even if they're unique. If you find a flaw in the simulation or hack a admin panel or something, that's nice and all but that isn't what Kayaba's trying to encourage. Kayaba is (not that the main cast know it, but it's been heavily implied) trying to get the playerbase to invent cool magecraft and generally be great magi; being great magitech-engineers qualifies, but just cutting corners on something that's fundamentally mundane doesn't.
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Okay. And Shirou intuits this... how?
  • Asuna and the frontline get "it's a weird reward for soloing a boss" because both the players who got a [Title] did so after soloing a boss, and it's a weird reward. They're wrong, but it's a reasonable inference to draw, and "solo a boss" is indeed the rough benchmark Kayaba's set; it's just descriptive, rather than proscriptive.
  • Kirito gets "it's a specific response to a unique/unreproducible achievement" from his personal experience/sympathy with Kayaba's precise mindset, and "to avoid tall poppy syndrome" from his understanding of Cardinal's balancing act. He's absolutely right, he just doesn't understand why this specific part of the game needs to permit the unique/unreproducible achievements that require protection from balance in the first place.
  • Shirou gets "it requires high-end applications of magecraft"... from what, exactly? Ilya hasn't told him anything, as far as we're aware, and I doubt she's given [Titles] any more thought than a mental thumbs-up to Kayaba for acknowledging her specialness in formal style. Why would he assume this? If I recall correctly, the only boss he solo'd was the fake 5th Floor boss, which he did through... technically mundane, theoretically reproducible skills, enhanced/acquired via magecraft. He did a Sword Real Good, and barely considered it magecraft in the first place. Why would he draw this conclusion?
 
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Revlid said:
He might not be wrong, but he certainly isn't right. Not in any meaningful sense. The fundamental reason Klein (and co) didn't get [Title(s)] isn't because their magecraft wasn't pure enough, it's because other players can reproduce their work, and so bosses can be generated on the assumption of access to [Sea-to-Ground Missiles] without massively penalizing the playerbase as a whole. The objection that their magecraft wasn't pure enough is a pointless/redundant one, because magecraft is the only route to non-reproducible player-generated effects of that magnitude in the first place. The only other examples it's possible to come up with are legitimate bug exploits, which Cardinal would obviously just patch out.

The qualifier for a [Title] is a "non-reproducible thing that can break the game", and the Venn Diagram of "non-reproducible things that can break the game" and "magecraft" is just a smaller circle inside a larger circle. Quibbling over whether something was magecraft enough is putting the cart before the horse, so from a Doylist perspective, having Shirou inject this irrelevant objection as the "last word" is a mistake.
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Again, not really, though? If Shirou could reproduce his Unlimited Blade Works -- and there's reason to believe that he could, in some sense, or at least permit others to use him as a Foundation the way everyone else uses Goetia -- that wouldn't disqualify him for a [Title]. [Title]s are handed out on the basis of game-breakingly bullshit magecraft, not on whether or not they can then be taught or transfered to others.

Revlid said:
  • Shirou gets "it requires high-end applications of magecraft"... from what, exactly? Ilya hasn't told him anything, as far as we're aware, and I doubt she's given [Titles] any more thought than a mental thumbs-up to Kayaba for acknowledging her specialness in formal style. Why would he assume this? If I recall correctly, the only boss he solo'd was the fake 5th Floor boss, which he did through... mundane, theoretically reproducible skills, enhanced/acquired via magecraft. He did a Sword Real Good, and barely considered it magecraft in the first place.
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Well, first, maybe he didn't solo a boss, but he did take down multiple entire "Last Red" stages that would normally be outright raid-wipes on his own, which isn't much different. And "acquired via magecraft" is the whole point -- an effect that grants you the skills of legendary heroes is, in fact, the original/foundation Mystery for the Summoning of the Heroic Spirits as implemented in Fuyuki.

But even before that: because Kayaba is a magus, and that's really all he needs to know.

Kayaba is a magus, and therefore there is a tremendous, six-thousand year tradition of pursuing the Root, excluding all other interests and all other methods, and seeking truth only in reproduction of historical miracles leaning on his judgement, a continuous culture as old as written history coloring his worldview.

The default assumption is that Kayaba is the sort of person that puts magecraft over all other priorities. He seems to be a heretic that is willing to dabble in modern technology as ATLAS does -- but Shirou's seen nothing to make him think that his general priorities, and his fundamental aesthetic preferences, should be all that different.
 
Revlid said:
Quibbling over whether something was magecraft enough is putting the cart before the horse, so from a Doylist perspective, having Shirou inject this irrelevant objection as the "last word" is a mistake.
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LOL that's why I ended on a dumb joke instead, but you're right I should take a step back and review the conversation more broadly.

Because yeah, broadly speaking, when it comes to getting inside Kayaba's head and figuring out his motives, Kirito is going to be better at that compared to the rest of them.

Shirou is basically pushing his assumption that "Title = path to Root" onto Kayaba basically, because that's what he probably assumes Kayaba is ultimately after, somehow.

Well, on the other hand, it might be more interesting if he goes the other way and assumes it's driven by the Fame Bonus, because instead he's looking it with the other baggage he's carrying: the Throne of Heroes. So I guess there might be something to be said for him to assume it's something to do with reaching a threshold of "awe-inspiring famousness" in the game, or something?

So from there, maybe restructure it so Argo is debating her Sensei on whether it's driven by be being a Special Snowflake Almost-Sorcerer, and Shirou is kind of thinking it's a throne of heroes thing, and then Kirito makes an uncertain face and says something like "I feel like you're overthinking it, this seems more like just a kludge to me" and let that be the end note of the convo. And having three hypothesis "it's for Special Magic, it's for famousness, LOL it's an ugly hack" being juggled would be interesting, too.
 
I felt like the scene with the Titles discussion was like this: most people think "this is a game, this is why games do things", Kirito thinks "this is Kayaba Akihiko, this is why he does things" and Shirou thinks "this is a Magus, this is why magi do things". In essence this means both that Kirito is the closest to being right, and that Shirou's argument comes off weirdly since it is based on knowledge he takes as a given, that nobody else has and he won't explain to others.

Even if you change it, you'll want to preserve that, the different ways that the parties in this conversation approach the subject.
 
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I felt like the reason Shirou was the last word even if it's not the most correct, was because it allowed a transition into "oh yeah, Shirou's incredibly suspicious to the point where, at best, he and Illya worked on an earlier form of the game and aren't saying anything" and that brings a kind of awkwardness to it that makes it a bit difficult to segue back into talking about Titles again.
 
TheFinalWraith said:
I felt like the reason Shirou was the last word even if it's not the most correct, was because it allowed a transition into "oh yeah, Shirou's incredibly suspicious to the point where, at best, he and Illya worked on an earlier form of the game and aren't saying anything" and that brings a kind of awkwardness to it that makes it a bit difficult to segue back into talking about Titles again.
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Very much this. This is one of those moments where Shirou or Ilya come off to others as speaking about game lore from an insider's perspective. But not a self-aware insider like someone who wrote it. They sound like they are part of the game in how seriously they take it, which is fitting for obvious reasons.
 
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daniel_gudman said:
LOL that's why I ended on a dumb joke instead, but you're right I should take a step back and review the conversation more broadly.

Because yeah, broadly speaking, when it comes to getting inside Kayaba's head and figuring out his motives, Kirito is going to be better at that compared to the rest of them.

Shirou is basically pushing his assumption that "Title = path to Root" onto Kayaba basically, because that's what he probably assumes Kayaba is ultimately after, somehow.

Well, on the other hand, it might be more interesting if he goes the other way and assumes it's driven by the Fame Bonus, because instead he's looking it with the other baggage he's carrying: the Throne of Heroes. So I guess there might be something to be said for him to assume it's something to do with reaching a threshold of "awe-inspiring famousness" in the game, or something?

So from there, maybe restructure it so Argo is debating her Sensei on whether it's driven by be being a Special Snowflake Almost-Sorcerer, and Shirou is kind of thinking it's a throne of heroes thing, and then Kirito makes an uncertain face and says something like "I feel like you're overthinking it, this seems more like just a kludge to me" and let that be the end note of the convo. And having three hypothesis "it's for Special Magic, it's for famousness, LOL it's an ugly hack" being juggled would be interesting, too.
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I think it's perfectly acceptable the way it is. Shirou isn't always right, the last word isn't always correct, and us readers aren't stupid. But it works out really well with everybody thinking like players, Kirito nailing it on the head by thinking like a dev, and then in comes Shirou thinking like a magus.
 
Revlid said:
Not sure I follow Kirito's logic to his conclusion as easily as Argo apparently does.

The crux of this monologue is Kirito saying: "Kayaba told us outright what the qualifications for Titles were, don't try reading between the lines". All the preceding talk about Extra/Unique Skills/Spells - and then the following aside about spell development bonus xp - just feels like padding, a distraction that left me stumbling to draw a straight line through Kirito's thought process. Point 1) Kayaba's a stickler for precise terminology, Point 2) Here's a largely unrelated anecdote about the naming scheme for skills and spells, Point 3) Kayaba outright stated what Titles were given for, Point 4) Therefore Titles feel like a kludge?
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I thought it was pretty straightforward.
1) Kayaba is a stickler for terminology
2) Here is an example of how he uses the word [unique] to talk about the game rules
3) Kayaba also uses the word unique in the title description. He therefore means it in the same way, he isn't just using it as an intensifier.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Again, not really, though? If Shirou could reproduce his Unlimited Blade Works -- and there's reason to believe that he could, in some sense, or at least permit others to use him as a Foundation the way everyone else uses Goetia -- that wouldn't disqualify him for a [Title]. [Title]s are handed out on the basis of game-breakingly bullshit magecraft, not on whether or not they can then be taught or transfered to others.
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...uh, no. If Shirou could teach everyone to do what he does, there would be no need for a [Title]. The purpose of [Titles] is to openly exclude specific players from the game's autobalancing, in order to avoid tall poppy syndrome. If everyone could spam hyperspecialized sword magic at everything, Cardinal would just slap +X% [Sword Resistance] on everything and force people to adapt appropriately. [Titles] exist so that people like Shirou can spam hyperspecialized sword magic without Cardinal introducing [Anti-Sword Turtles] to a world where not everyone can pull Kanshou and Bakuya out of their ass.
 
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