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Fate/Hollow Order

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TenfoldShields said:
[X] Remind Jeanne of Bathory. She was a woman whose harsh policies and tactics didn't make her friends, and though her legend was smeared with blood, she could still hold her head high to fight. Understanding set her free.



Don't be disingenuous.

There's more to the Bathory option than "hey remember her she was way cool" and honestly I'd make the argument that she's the key more than Lancelot is. Lancelot's a very personal example. A very applicable example. A very appropriate example. To Rostam. Less so to the Jeanne's. If the break between truth and legend is literally embodied on the enemy team by a pair of Servants and one of the main bones between the antagonist and the protagonist (and let's face it, Jeanne's basically the protag) is the difference between legend and truth the answer's sort of obvious.

Plus, like I said, the Lancelot example is a very personal thing to Rostam and post his death Rostam explicitly goes



He's burying those feelings deep and deadset on having his moment when nobody else is around. He's not going to dredge them up again fifteen minutes later as a moral point to someone else's story.



This is sort of honestly what bugs me the most about the Lancelot votes. People going for what's most appropriate for Rostam and trying to paint the Jeanne conflict over with that brush. Like, the option itself is fine no disagreement there. But given how we haven't developed our relationship with Jeanne literally at all (and negatively developed it honestly by needling her post-Bathory) we have to be very, very, careful about what we go with.

We need to pick what works best for her. Which really isn't Rostam talking about what he learned about himself today.
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I agree with you about Bathory being the best pick when you consider the narrative, themes, Jeann and Dark Jeann's characters, etc etc, but.

I already chose Bryn, I'm sticking to it. Unlike some people around here (spits on Saber of Blue's boots).
 
[X] Remind Jeanne of Bathory. She was a woman whose harsh policies and tactics didn't make her friends, and though her legend was smeared with blood, she could still hold her head high to fight. Understanding set her free.
 
[X] Remind Jeanne of Lancelot. He was both a proud knight and father as well as a mad black knight. These were both true. One need not diminish the other.

I admit I chose this because of the strong emotions Lance's death gave me.
 
[X] Remind Jeanne of Lancelot. He was both a proud knight and father as well as a mad black knight. These were both true. One need not diminish the other.
 
Guys, Jeanne Alter didn't just summon Bathory on affinity. She summoned Bathory on affinity twice. She summoned her in a way that fundamentally changed Bathory's nature from the distorted version left behind by history.

Lancelot isn't a bad choice. But it isn' the best choice.
 
Wait, I don't think Bathory is the right choice here. Since, in this situation, Jeanne (our Jeanne) is the propoganda, not the truth. She's borne of the legend of heroism, while Alter is borne of the Counter Guardian.

Bathory is most fitting, yes, but for Avenger not for vanilla. It'll just weaken Jeanne.
 
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[X] Remind Jeanne of Lancelot. He was both a proud knight and father as well as a mad black knight. These were both true. One need not diminish the other.
 
TenfoldShields said:
There's more to the Bathory option than "hey remember her she was way cool" and honestly I'd make the argument that she's the key more than Lancelot is. Lancelot's a very personal example. A very applicable example. A very appropriate example. To Rostam. Less so to the Jeanne's. If the break between truth and legend is literally embodied on the enemy team by a pair of Servants and one of the main bones between the antagonist and the protagonist (and let's face it, Jeanne's basically the protag) is the difference between legend and truth the answer's sort of obvious.
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I picked Lancelot for two reasons.

1.Ros can make a more impassioned speech to her that way.

2. Bathory for Jeanne is the person who despite not being blackened, insane, or blackmailed was willingly helping Jeanne Alter and constantly rebuked their offers to join them as she tried to kill them all.

Lancelot on the other hand is the literal insane person who went from nearly killing them all to saving all of their asses and then killing himself to ensure he wasn't potentially forced to attack them all to protect his "son". The persona of the Perfect Knight shining through even through the cage of his mad enhancement.

That image of seeing someone move past their darkness to do the right thing for the people they love seems like it would strike powerfully in Jeanne.

Ridiculously Average Guy said:
Wait, I don't think Bathory is the right choice here. Since, in this situation, Jeanne (our Jeanne) is the propoganda, not the truth. She's borne of the legend of heroism, while Alter is borne of the Counter Guardian.

Bathory is most fitting, yes, but for Avenger not for vanilla. It'll just weaken Jeanne.
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Honestly this too.

ZerbanDaGreat said:
"The terms of the contract are to become a Counter Guardian," Avenger hisses. "To exist outside of time and serve Alaya, to be summoned and sent to cleanse humanity for its own good. Burning out the cancer so the rest of the body may live. Humanity, the festering pile of paranoia and self-justification and arrogance that it is, condemned me to die. To burn. And then I returned. I had to kill for them. Again. And again. And again. And again until that beautiful clean sword you took so much pride in was drowned in the blood of the innocent and the guilty alike. I served Alaya for eternity to pay for your mistakes."

Her face twists into a mocking smile, tainted by the burning fury straining to burst free. "And then you became a hero. The church's sentence was overturned. You became La Pucelle. You became France's noble saviour. You became a hero. The aeons I spent suffering for humanity's weakness were just wiped away. And now you strut around in front of me, bold as brass, thinking you have the right to speak about your holy mission or the purity of your quest? I'd spit on you if I thought you were worthy of that. You're nothing but the half of us that humanity wants now that it's done with me. The dirty, ugly, hateful parts that you can't stand to think about."

Jeanne stares. Pale. Wide-eyed. She can't respond. What could she possibly say in response to that? Now, when she knows the words can be nothing but the truth?

"You say I'm no more than a demon?" Avenger goes on. "Maybe. But you are nothing but a wraith of France's idolatry."
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Avenger and Bathory got along so well because they hated how they'd become distorted by history. They understood the others anger and frustration at what happened to their name and how they still had to pay the price for it even after death.
 
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I think the real question here is 'will that Servant somehow be revived and join Team Chaldea'? in the best case scenario.

Basically, do we want a Charmander, Squirtle, or a Bulbasaur?
 
Diller said:
1.Ros can make a more impassioned speech to her that way.

2. Bathory for Jeanne is the person who despite not being blackened, insane, or blackmailed was willingly helping Jeanne Alter and constantly rebuked their offers to join them as she tried to kill them all.
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1. Rostam doesn't make impassioned speeches. He babbles and prays to god that he says the right thing and hates himself for being so emotional afterwards. Canceling the apocalypse he does not.

2. Defeating Jalter requires understanding. Understanding of who she is or what she represents. Going "well you're just like Lancelot and the good shines through even so so it really doesn't count" is...well it's sort of a lie honestly. It's a kind crutch. It's giving Jily a get out of jail free card of "well you were both so it's okay really". Actually helping her requires confronting her with the truth, the thing that she's explicitly been rejecting for all of France. Without compromise, equivocation, or emotional qualification.

Diller said:
Honestly this too.

Avenger and Bathory got along so well because they were both the real deal who hated how they'd become distorted by history. They understood the others anger and frustration at what happened to their name and how they still had to pay the price for it even after death.
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And admit it or not Jily shares a lot of the same feelings as Jalter, she just refuses to acknowledge them and seeks to distance herself from them or explain them away. Her whole thing this entire anomaly has been "she's a demon, a living lie, she's not like me" when the truth has been that they're as alike as two people could ever be.
 
TenfoldShields said:
And admit it or not Jily shares a lot of the same feelings as Jalter, she just refuses to acknowledge them and seeks to distance herself from them or explain them away. Her whole thing this entire anomaly has been "she's a demon, a living lie, she's not like me" when the truth has been that they're as alike as two people could ever be.
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Alternatively, they're as different as a single person could ever be.
 
[X] Remind Jeanne ofLungkata. He chased an ideal to the ends of the earth, sacrificing what he thought he had to in order to reach enlightenment. But her quest never put her loved ones in harms way.

I dont think Lungkata is actually all that relevant to the situation but I just really like how the dude dedicated his life to the awesome dream of becoming a dragon.
 
TenfoldShields said:
Don't be disingenuous.

There's more to the Bathory option than "hey remember her she was way cool" and honestly I'd make the argument that she's the key more than Lancelot is. Lancelot's a very personal example. A very applicable example. A very appropriate example. To Rostam. Less so to the Jeanne's. If the break between truth and legend is literally embodied on the enemy team by a pair of Servants and one of the main bones between the antagonist and the protagonist (and let's face it, Jeanne's basically the protag) is the difference between legend and truth the answer's sort of obvious.
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I'm... not trying to be? I didn't mean that was all there was to the Bathory vote, it's more that as has been noted, Lancelot's case is also very applicable to Rostam; I voted for it felt like what Rostam would ICly do.

Regarding Bathory, my main concern is that while, yes, she does embody the Legend - Reality disconnect the most, she's also got it the other way around; Real Bathory was essentially an ordinary person, whereas Legend Bathory is a monster at the root of the majority of modern vampire mythology. In Bathory's case, Alter Jeanne managed to bring out her true self rather than the legendary monster; here, Hero!Jeanne is the legend, and the question becomes 'what happens when you dispel that?'.

I don't think it would backfire per say, but it does raise the interesting question of 'what happens when you bring out the "real" Jeanne', as happened with Bathory. If the 'real Jeanne' was someone who became a Counter Guardian, then that could actually end really badly for Alter given the starlight arm Gilles is summoning that the Counter Force would probably quite like a word with.

Either vote works, I think. I just lean towards Lancelot because it feels appropriate for Rostam to run with that; as you said, he doesn't exactly make speeches, he just sort of flails with the best he can come up with.
 
[X] Remind Jeanne of Bathory. She was a woman whose harsh policies and tactics didn't make her friends, and though her legend was smeared with blood, she could still hold her head high to fight. Understanding set her free.
 
[X] Remind Jeanne of Bathory. She was a woman whose harsh policies and tactics didn't make her friends, and though her legend was smeared with blood, she could still hold her head high to fight. Understanding set her free.
 
[X] Remind Jeanne of Lancelot. He was both a proud knight and father as well as a mad black knight. These were both true. One need not diminish the other.
 
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There's something that's been bothering me for a while.
ZerbanDaGreat said:
A great tide of dark, foul-smelling, brackish water gushes through like a dam beginning to break.
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Why is it always brackish water? Like, it's just water that has an unusual salinity level. It isn't alien, it isn't unnatural and it doesn't harbour demonic beings from the realm between dimensions.

Even when I once found a folkstory from Denmark featuring the Kraken, it didn't take place in the Baltic Sea, the local brackish sea. but rather in Kattegat. The terrifying sea whose name literally translates to Cat Gate. In other words, brackish water was considered less eldritch than a sea small enough that kittens had trouble passing through.

... Admittedly, I would love if it Gilles began summoning endless supplies of fluffy furballs, but that's a different point.
 
[X] Remind Jeanne of Bathory. She was a woman whose harsh policies and tactics didn't make her friends, and though her legend was smeared with blood, she could still hold her head high to fight. Understanding set her free.

Look after sleeping and reading through Tenfoldshields words I am somewhat convinced to change my vote personal feelings aside.

Then again I am wondering where is Revlid and why isn't he voting for the woman that makes his heart go Doki Doki.
 
[X] Remind Jeanne of Bathory. She was a woman whose harsh policies and tactics didn't make her friends, and though her legend was smeared with blood, she could still hold her head high to fight. Understanding set her free.
 
TenfoldShields said:
And admit it or not Jily shares a lot of the same feelings as Jalter, she just refuses to acknowledge them and seeks to distance herself from them or explain them away. Her whole thing this entire anomaly has been "she's a demon, a living lie, she's not like me" when the truth has been that they're as alike as two people could ever be.
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Omegahugger said:
Alternatively, they're as different as a single person could ever be.
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Pretty much this.

Jily wasn't the one who became a Counter Guardian. To learn she never truly heard God's voice. To learn the reason she went to war, the reason she was abandoned and was burnt to death after besmirching her own name was a lie made to manipulate her/

She wasn't the one who spent eons killing over and over and over. Indiscriminately regardless of age, race, gender, and innocence. To be a mere dog of the thing that tricked her into giving up her life to save humanity.

Then she's suddenly hailed as a Saint by the people who abandoned her and suddenly everything she did as a CG is gone. Like it never happened. Like her suffering never mattered and then she gets to see this lily white "Saint" version of herself who didn't experience the eons of torment she did. The hero humanity wanted. Who acts as she "should" and denies any negative emotions because that's how a saint should act.

And then they're both summoned together and the idealized version of herself is the one who has their original appearance while she's the one stuck with the face humanity made for Jeanne D'Arc. Like she's the fake and Jilly is reality.

That's why Jalter and Bathory got along so well. They were betrayed in life and in turn were betrayed in death to the point their very faces and personalities were affected by it. To the point that if they're summoned it will almost assuredly always be the versions of themselves that were created by the fiction of others.

Jilly's worldview is basically about to crumble like Jalter's did and I'm not sure going "Jeanne think of Bathory. Remember how understanding set her free? Despite her literally being a prisoner of her own castle anyways; helping your evil self out of gratitude for understanding her; constantly refused to join us and repeatedly said she was going to enjoy her time for as long as she could since this was the only time she would ever be like this as she would forevermore be summoned as the monster history depicted her as" is the best idea right now. Especially when Bathory was the real deal while Jilly is the personification of the propaganda people made about Jeanne the saint so she doesn't quite have the same connection Jalter and Bathory did.

TenfoldShields said:
2. Defeating Jalter requires understanding. Understanding of who she is or what she represents. Going "well you're just like Lancelot and the good shines through even so so it really doesn't count" is...well it's sort of a lie honestly. It's a kind crutch. It's giving Jily a get out of jail free card of "well you were both so it's okay really". Actually helping her requires confronting her with the truth, the thing that she's explicitly been rejecting for all of France. Without compromise, equivocation, or emotional qualification.
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My point is that Lancelot is both the Mad Black Knight and the Noble Knight. Those aspects of him are two sides of the same coin. Even when he was in an incarnation that emphasized the former, the latter was able to come to the forefront when he was given a good enough reason for it. Its supposed to be "look she's right about you hiding all these dark emotions inside of you and that she's the embodiment of all those emotions but you don't have to let that; let her define who you are. Just like how Lancelot didn't let his madness completely define him despite literally being summoned as a Servant of madness. Acknowledging the existence of a darkness your keeping hidden doesn't mean you have to let yourself be completely ruled by it."
 
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