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Fate/Hollow Order

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If we remain blueballed a mere 5-10 updates away from the actual relationship part of a m/m romance in a quest(which as I have stated before is absurdly rare), then I might just have to write fanfiction of this fanfiction to cope, because wow is it great.

Not only is it really well written but I can't believe you got a quest playerbase to actually be super in favor of a gay relationship, which I thought was impossible. Quests' obsession with lesbian(or nominally bisexual but hardly portrayed as such) female main characters has nothing to do with representation; most quest players are straight guys who use quests as wish fulfillment and don't want to romance a guy cause that'd be icky to them.

But you have the players super invested in Rostam and Karna. It's kind of shocking. Maybe it's just because you attract the kind of players that don't screech "THEY'RE JUST BROS, THEY'RE JUST BROS!" at any chemistry between men.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, as a bisexual man, thank you Zerbs, you meme-loving hack fraud.
 
Honestly it kinda undermines it if you call it an accomplishment for people to agree with m/m relationships. Just have it be a relationship. There really is no reason to specify it has to be m/m. Like to be honest why not just relationships develop without having to specify its m/m? A quest is all about players choice and character development. It shouldn't be an accomplishment to make someone ok with a m/m relationship.
 
CoGeRo said:
Honestly it kinda undermines it if you call it an accomplishment for people to agree with m/m relationships. Just have it be a relationship. There really is no reason to specify it has to be m/m. Like to be honest why not just relationships develop without having to specify its m/m? A quest is all about players choice and character development. It shouldn't be an accomplishment to make someone ok with a m/m relationship.
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It is an accomplishment, because basically no one on SV writes men who like men outside of Zerban and Tenfold. You're right that it shouldn't be an accomplishment, it should be completely normal - but it's not.
 
CoGeRo said:
Honestly it kinda undermines it if you call it an accomplishment for people to agree with m/m relationships. Just have it be a relationship. There really is no reason to specify it has to be m/m. Like to be honest why not just relationships develop without having to specify its m/m? A quest is all about players choice and character development. It shouldn't be an accomplishment to make someone ok with a m/m relationship.
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As a bisexual man, I really goddamn love that this is clearly going for a m/m ship, because it's something that in my experience is extremely rare. In an ideal world, it'd be something that didn't call for it to be highlighted and praised, but given its rarity in stuff like this I think it's something that's deserves at least a little acknowledgement.
 
Dekutulla said:
It is an accomplishment, because basically no one on SV writes men who like men outside of Zerban and Tenfold. You're right that it shouldn't be an accomplishment, it should be completely normal - but it's not.
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I agree but it undermines the compliment in my opinion. If you want to call Zerban a great writer (Which he is) than just call him a great writer, There is no reason it had to be specified he is a great writer because he can make questers accept a m/m relationship. Especially the part about questers trying to avoid them and using quests for wish fulfillment. The entire post could have done without generalizing questers. I understand that it's rare and doesn't happen often, but in my opinion as a bisexual man, I just think the specific focus on "a playerbase" that accepts m/m relationships, and "Maybe it's just because you attract the kind of players that don't screech "THEY'RE JUST BROS, THEY'RE JUST BROS!" was not needed at all. Praise Zerban for writing a great ship, writing human emotions, for being great in general. But don't generalize a group of people as being anti-gay essentially.
 
CoGeRo said:
I agree but it undermines the compliment in my opinion. If you want to call Zerban a great writer (Which he is) than just call him a great writer, There is no reason it had to be specified he is a great writer because he can make questers accept a m/m relationship. Especially the part about questers trying to avoid them and using quests for wish fulfillment. The entire post could have done without generalizing questers. I understand that it's rare and doesn't happen often, but in my opinion as a bisexual man, I just think the specific focus on "a playerbase" that accepts m/m relationships, and "Maybe it's just because you attract the kind of players that don't screech "THEY'RE JUST BROS, THEY'RE JUST BROS!" was not needed at all. Praise Zerban for writing a great ship, writing human emotions, for being great in general. But don't generalize a group of people as being anti-gay essentially.
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Acknowledging the existence of a problem is the first step to resolving it.
 
CoGeRo said:
Still could have been done without calling the majority of questors essentially homophobic.
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It's not.

If you're looking at it and thinking "I'm being called homophobic!" instead of thinking "oh yeah, on a site that mostly consists of male nerds whose questbase is mostly male nerds, fiction will tend to pander to their preferences", the problem isn't with the dude who's happy to have some rare representation.
 
Salty said:
It's not.

If you're looking at it and thinking "I'm being called homophobic!" instead of thinking "oh yeah, on a site that mostly consists of male nerds whose questbase is mostly male nerds, fiction will tend to pander to their preferences", the problem isn't with the dude who's happy to have some rare representation.
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Except I'm not a "straight nerd" and I'm actually getting the same representation. I know how rare it is. I know what its like to not have any representation. But when they say stuff like "most quest players are straight guys who use quests as wish fulfillment and don't want to romance a guy cause that'd be icky to them." and "quests' obsession with lesbian(or nominally bisexual but hardly portrayed as such) female main characters has nothing to do with representation;" and also "Maybe it's just because you attract the kind of players that don't screech "THEY'RE JUST BROS, THEY'RE JUST BROS!" at any chemistry between men." That to me just screams generalization. They are literally saying most quest players think being gay is icky. They are legitimately calling a majority of users homophobic. That doesn't help anyone.
 
CoGeRo said:
Still could have been done without calling the majority of questors essentially homophobic.
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I wouldn't go so far as to call it outright homophobia. It's just a very clear, very strong trend with a fairly obvious bias being the reason. Quests are written in the second damn person. The reason for that is because they're very clear audiences insert material, what with the audience voting on the way the story will go. Thus, the audience naturally inserts themselves into the quest, and a straight guy won't want to insert himself into a relationship with a man; hence quest protagonists nearly always being straight men or gay women. It's not homophobia so much as not wanting to leave one's comfort zone, and i'm impressed that this quest has managed that with its players.

Like, I could also point out that there are very very few human quest protagonists who aren't either white or East Asian, and that the reason for this is most SV users are white(and thus subconsciously see that as the default) and watch anime(and thus have been trained by the medium to see Japanese protagonists as an alternative default). This isn't me calling SV users racist, it's just pointing out a trend and its underlying cause.
 
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no. said:
I wouldn't go so far as to call it outright homophobia. It's just a very clear, very strong trend with a fairly obvious bias being the reason. Quests aren't written in the second damn person. The reason for that is because they're very clear audiences insert material, what with the audience voting on the way the story will go. Thus, the audience naturally inserts themselves into the quest, and a straight guy won't want to insert himself into a relationship with a man; hence quest protagonists nearly always being straight men or gay women. It's not homophobia so much as not wanting to leave one's comfort zone, and i'm impressed that this quest has managed that with its players.

Like, I could also point out that there are very very few human quest protagonists who aren't either white or East Asian, and that the reason for this is most SV users are white(and thus subconsciously see that as the default) and watch anime(and thus have been trained by the medium to see Japanese protagonists as an alternative default). This isn't me calling SV users racist, it's just pointing out a trend and its underlying cause.
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I understand your reasoning and I agree there aren't enough PoC protagonists or Protagonists that aren't straight, But I just think it's wrong to say that people "Dont want a romance with a guy because that would be icky to them" If what you're saying is true and the majority is "Straight guys who use quests as fulfillment." Then it isn't that they see a relationship or romance with a guy as icky. It's more of what you said, They wouldn't get in a romance with a man. This is no way implies that they think gays are icky. I agree with the majority of what you say, I just disagree with the way you have previously phrased it. If people do see quests as self inserts and the majority is straight men then it would make senses they don't want to have a romance with the guy, But they as people aren't attracted to guys. That doesn't mean they think non-straight people are icky. All in all I agree with your points, I agree that we need more non-straight characters, more diverse protagonists, But they way you phrased your argument just struck a cord with me.
 
CoGeRo said:
I understand your reasoning and I agree there aren't enough PoC protagonists or Protagonists that aren't straight, But I just think it's wrong to say that people "Dont want a romance with a guy because that would be icky to them" If what you're saying is true and the majority is "Straight guys who use quests as fulfillment." Then it isn't that they see a relationship or romance with a guy as icky. It's more of what you said, They wouldn't get in a romance with a man. This is no way implies that they think gays are icky. I agree with the majority of what you say, I just disagree with the way you have previously phrased it. If people do see quests as self inserts and the majority is straight men then it would make senses they don't want to have a romance with the guy, But they as people aren't attracted to guys. That doesn't mean they think non-straight people are icky. All in all I agree with your points, I agree that we need more non-straight characters, more diverse protagonists, But they way you phrased your argument just struck a cord with me.
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You know what, that's fair. I was bitter and I worded it in a harsher way than was appropriate.
 
CoGeRo said:
Honestly it kinda undermines it if you call it an accomplishment for people to agree with m/m relationships. Just have it be a relationship. There really is no reason to specify it has to be m/m. Like to be honest why not just relationships develop without having to specify its m/m? A quest is all about players choice and character development. It shouldn't be an accomplishment to make someone ok with a m/m relationship.
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It shouldn't be but it is. It's a fucking accomplishment and to not acknowledge that, such as your comment here, is quite frankly the only thing undermining anything. Thanks for that nice bit of trivialization/erasure.

Also lol people totally did drop this quest after the gay became canon and I held back from spite commenting on it but now I really must. It's great in an awful way because as a reader in general and bisexual female I'm really fed the fuck up with EVERY female protag being a lesbian jesus christ
no. said:
You know what, that's fair. I was bitter and I worded it in a harsher way than was appropriate.
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You were not harsh. You were accurate. It just so happens that the truth stings sometimes.
 
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Lilithium said:
It shouldn't be but it is. It's a fucking accomplishment and to not acknowledge that, such as your comment here, is quite frankly the only thing undermining anything. Thanks for that nice bit of trivialization/erasure.
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I'm sorry if it came off as me trivializing or erasing anything, That was not my intended effect, If anything I said has offended you in any way I humbly apologize.
 
Fuck it, I guess I really will have to write fanfiction of this fanfiction to cope. Maybe if we all write fanfiction we'll be able to make Zerban ascend to Greater Daemonhood so he'll have more arms for writing.
 
no. said:
Fuck it, I guess I really will have to write fanfiction of this fanfiction to cope. Maybe if we all write fanfiction we'll be able to make Zerban ascend to Greater Daemonhood so he'll have more arms for writing.
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Or maybe you can respectfully not resurrect a dormant thread just to complain about this shit when the author has put up a notice that they're taking a creative hiatus. Because I'm sure thats what all of us want, to get an alert for this thread because someone wants to whine about there being no updates.
 
LupineVolt said:
Or maybe you can respectfully not resurrect a dormant thread just to complain about this shit when the author has put up a notice that they're taking a creative hiatus. Because I'm sure thats what all of us want, to get an alert for this thread because someone wants to whine about there being no updates.
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He didn't lock the thread, so i don't see why discussion isn't possible.
 
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