Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
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Hundred Faced Hassan is somewhat broken when used correctly.
When used incorrectly like in canon, King Hassan demands their head.
Fate/Desiderantes Affectibus (Fate/Zero & PMMM Cross)
- Thread starter Rowan Seven
- Start date
When used incorrectly like in canon, King Hassan demands their head.
BlackoutSampler
So Easily Forgotten
One thing I never understood about Gilgamesh is how can he lay claim to treasures his legend has never touched even after it has been created? I mean, his big shtick is that "he owned the original version of every treasure ever, because his kingdom was just that big and rich, and by copyright claims, the derivative works are also his too." However, this wouldn't be true. The Norse Legends would have been created well before his legend could have reached the Norse to influence them (and therefore be able to claim copyright), and Mayan Legend would definitely be able to claim independence to his legend. So, his big claim is automatically wrong, not every legend is derived from his, he is not the King of Heroes. On top of that, I don't think his actual legend state any of the mary sue shit he claims to be, in fact I think his legend only talks of his kingdom as "a" kingdom not "the" kingdom, so I don't get where all this "I own everyone" shit he keeps talking about comes from either.
whatever, I toss it into the pile of "Nasu shit that just don't make sense" and be done with it.
whatever, I toss it into the pile of "Nasu shit that just don't make sense" and be done with it.
Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
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In addition to a good chunk of NPs stemming back to stuff Gil collected in life in Nasu, CCC gave him anything made by human wisdom, IIRC.
And no, his claim to fame is entirely true even here in RL. The Epic of Gilgamesh is literally the oldest story about a hero not of the gods around. He is literally the Original Hero.
Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
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...Fuckit, it's 2AM, I'm not an expert on these things, and the likely reply is just going to continue things.
@EnderofWorlds please explain better than I just did.
@EnderofWorlds please explain better than I just did.
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
The two questions to break him (well, drive him into unthinking rage, really) would be "If you're truly the greatest of all heroes, why are you still mortal? And why is Enkidu still dead?"
Because the real heart of Gil's legend isn't his kingship. It's his failure.
Because the real heart of Gil's legend isn't his kingship. It's his failure.
Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
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Only ask the latter assuming you like Serious Mode Gilgamesh eviscerating you. He canonically, Nasu or not, got over the immortality thing(and as Grand Order shows, was a great king afterwards). Trying to rile him up via Enkidu's memory is just likely to get cold rage and GOB.
(GO THE FUCK TO SLEEP GRUE)
EnderofWorlds
Kneel, mongrel
- Location
- My Ship of Light in the Cosmos
Sure, I got time to kill.
Gilgamesh is the first recorded hero; as such he actually gave definition and meaning to the very concept of 'hero', in a similar fashion to how Plato's Theory of Forms has the idealized 'form' give definition to everything that is derived from said form. As an aside, just about everything about Gilgamesh conceptually derives itself from Plato and his philosophies, which is intentional on Nasu's part because he's a pretty big buff on that sorta thing.
Because Gilgamesh is the first hero, he gave definition to all heroes who came after him; without him, those heroes cannot exist, because he is the one who gave definition and meaning to the very term 'hero' in the first place. Thus, since all heroes derive their roots from Gilgamesh, he has all their stuff. Just as the shadow of the mountain ultimately derives its existence and meaning from the mountain that casts said shadow, so too do all future heroic spirits derive their existence from Gilgamesh. This is portrayed in him having all the prototypes of their Noble Phantasms, because without him to give them definition, they themselves cannot exist. The origin of the legend and the fact that they never heard of him is irrelevant; he is the archetype of the hero, thus, all heroes are derived from him.
Also, because he gathered all of humanity's achievements and knowledge in his lifetime, GoB also became the embodiment of all of humanity's wisdom; because that's how Noble Phantasms work: they're the crystallization of one's legend. So, when he got renown for having all of humanity's achievements, when he became a Heroic Spirit that legend became true. So it doesn't matter if it's an accomplishment that comes after him, GoB will have it, because it has all of humanity's achievements and knowledge. The fact that he never had it in actual life is irrelevant, just like how it's irrelevant how Lancelot never used a machine gun in life either. Both cases are the exact same when you think about it; the crystallization of a legend taken to an extreme but logical conclusion: Lancelot became renown for being so skilled as to beat a motherfucker with anything, so he can; Gilgamesh got renown for having all of humanity's knowledge and achievements in his vaults, so he does.
As for that actually being a thing in the Epic; the Epic itself is fairly tattered from what we could recover of it, to the point that we got a whole new chapter several months back that added a considerable amount to the story, and even then IIRC there are blurbs about Gilgamesh having immense wealth and stuff in his treasury and about how great a city Uruk is and how it's the bestest-best ever. Which, you know, makes sense when you consider it was one of the largest and only civilizations around at the time.
ApocalypticFish
Been reflecting lately.
I highly doubt that Gilgamesh actually collected treasures from the Americas.
(yes I get it's symbolic shut up)
Edit: I was stupid, more accurately the written records we have of Norse myth is like, circa around the 13th century AD.
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finds -> find
Missing close quote mark.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Surprising how much the banquet changes just by adding in a few Servants.
Also, is it possible for us to just have that whole Holy Grail War thing happen offscreen and have the rest of the story gravitate around Sayaka and Taiga in a kendo tournament. It would be an unorthodox move to be sure, but I'm certain the pay-off would be worth it!
Also, is it possible for us to just have that whole Holy Grail War thing happen offscreen and have the rest of the story gravitate around Sayaka and Taiga in a kendo tournament. It would be an unorthodox move to be sure, but I'm certain the pay-off would be worth it!
Yes, Taiga is best girl, and I'm glad the story worked her in.
Well now, I certain't wasn't expecting this in my inbox, but it was a welcome surprise, suffice to say your writing is as smooth as ever and I found myself drawn back into the story with ease and quickly meshed with Sayaka's prospective and tone.
The opening scene was incredibly fun and kind of hilariously meta, but in such a way that adds to the cast and feels like it meshes with the world, along with just being kind of charming. The descriptions flowed well, painting a solid picture and feel of the location and Sayaka's perspective as her good mood evaporated and she wrote her wish was heartbreaking, its such a Sayaka thing to do and the gesture feels so fitting, but her sense of it being insufficient is so real and strong.
Kinda sad we missed the arrival XD But I did love Sayaka's summary regarding their travel and the ever polite Lancer
The descriptions for their little triangle come diamond and the flowers were great and I feel you captured the feel of the castle and the intimate but at the same time somewhat stilted and understandably wary interactions between the cast work well.
I have to say, Rider really showed why he was a successful empire builder in this chapter, while he seemed to somewhat irritatingly favour Gil, the heroic company wouldn't behove him of that too much and Gil's ego needs substantiating if he's to be kept at the table, and he generally handled the tensions well.
Saber was well written as standoffish, but experienced as a knight and king in her own right, but with the distinct alienation that came with giving up her humanity, especially when Sayaka spoke to her about her knights.
Gil was egotistical, borderline inhuman and smug as ever, so kudos on that front; though he definitely comes across as mouthing off about things he doesn't get more here than in canon, but that feels fitting for him, despite the canon narrative and his ego, I feel Gil is not always right or as wise as he thinks of himself. Still his insights and ability to mess with people were shown well here.
Lancer was sweet as always and I loved his take on nobility, knighthood and chivalry, no wonder he and Saber got along so well; his dialogue felt pitch perfect for him and his dream and the response it got felt fitting.
Sayaka was understandably nervous, and felt a bit ignored at times but I think that was intentional with her openly drawing attention to telling her story over being asked. Not quite sure what to say about her wish given the memory of her would be erased and some part of me wonders if she has considered checking if Saber or Rider or Lancer have a way to deal with the Crest Worms, as that would leave her with no reason to fight, but I may be going overboard there. Her summaries of events felt quite in character and she's naturally having to re-frame or awkwardly convey her rather complicated story so it fits well.
I liked the overall debate, though I confess my sympathies lie with Saber more than the others, so while I love the banquet I'm always a little frustrated by it as well XD
The ending was well described, evocative and oh gods Assassin is taking action, all hands on deck, this is amazing and terrifying and I love it!
Seriously, kudos on that ending, this has been building up and its so genius!
Best of luck with the next chapter!
The opening scene was incredibly fun and kind of hilariously meta, but in such a way that adds to the cast and feels like it meshes with the world, along with just being kind of charming. The descriptions flowed well, painting a solid picture and feel of the location and Sayaka's perspective as her good mood evaporated and she wrote her wish was heartbreaking, its such a Sayaka thing to do and the gesture feels so fitting, but her sense of it being insufficient is so real and strong.
Kinda sad we missed the arrival XD But I did love Sayaka's summary regarding their travel and the ever polite Lancer
The descriptions for their little triangle come diamond and the flowers were great and I feel you captured the feel of the castle and the intimate but at the same time somewhat stilted and understandably wary interactions between the cast work well.
I have to say, Rider really showed why he was a successful empire builder in this chapter, while he seemed to somewhat irritatingly favour Gil, the heroic company wouldn't behove him of that too much and Gil's ego needs substantiating if he's to be kept at the table, and he generally handled the tensions well.
Saber was well written as standoffish, but experienced as a knight and king in her own right, but with the distinct alienation that came with giving up her humanity, especially when Sayaka spoke to her about her knights.
Gil was egotistical, borderline inhuman and smug as ever, so kudos on that front; though he definitely comes across as mouthing off about things he doesn't get more here than in canon, but that feels fitting for him, despite the canon narrative and his ego, I feel Gil is not always right or as wise as he thinks of himself. Still his insights and ability to mess with people were shown well here.
Lancer was sweet as always and I loved his take on nobility, knighthood and chivalry, no wonder he and Saber got along so well; his dialogue felt pitch perfect for him and his dream and the response it got felt fitting.
Sayaka was understandably nervous, and felt a bit ignored at times but I think that was intentional with her openly drawing attention to telling her story over being asked. Not quite sure what to say about her wish given the memory of her would be erased and some part of me wonders if she has considered checking if Saber or Rider or Lancer have a way to deal with the Crest Worms, as that would leave her with no reason to fight, but I may be going overboard there. Her summaries of events felt quite in character and she's naturally having to re-frame or awkwardly convey her rather complicated story so it fits well.
I liked the overall debate, though I confess my sympathies lie with Saber more than the others, so while I love the banquet I'm always a little frustrated by it as well XD
The ending was well described, evocative and oh gods Assassin is taking action, all hands on deck, this is amazing and terrifying and I love it!
Seriously, kudos on that ending, this has been building up and its so genius!
Best of luck with the next chapter!
My memory is serving me really poorly right now since it's been so long, but didn't Sayaka use one of Lancer's spears to kill Caster in a giant explosion?
My impression was that that was a Broken Phantasm explosion, which made me quite confused to see Lancer talking about still having both of his spears.
My impression was that that was a Broken Phantasm explosion, which made me quite confused to see Lancer talking about still having both of his spears.
magical girl
Olive
Silent Princess
It's pretty typical for this to be the setting where Rider reveals Ionioi Hetairoi, so it's an interesting change of pace to see it remain secret. Also in that regard, it was neat to see even Sayaka and Diarmuid, who feed both into and off of Saber's chivalry boner, giving her the side-eye over her wish.
It also means that, in a War about considering your opponent's capabilities, he's kept one hell of a trump card hidden up his sleeve.
It also means that, in a War about considering your opponent's capabilities, he's kept one hell of a trump card hidden up his sleeve.
Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
Sayaka and Diarmuid still know of its existence. And I would reckon to think Assassin knows of it too.
If Rowan decides to through in Anno and Urobuchi, he's going to make Kirei and Assassin through in the coup d'grace and take out several Masters, including Sola-Ui and Waver. That will make the Grail manifest for sure leaving only Hassan, Sayaka, Arturia, and Gil as the only ones left standing.
It wasn't a Broken Phantasm explosion. Considering the spears don't even belong to Sayaka I'm not even sure she COULD use them as a Broken Phantasm. Sometimes an explosion is just an explosion and not powered by a Broken Phantasm.
Uh, no. Rider used Ionioi Hetairoi during the battle with Caster. Sayaka and Lancer were in it, and Assassin knows about it as well and told Kirei. Kirei, Risei, and Tokiomi were discussing it last chapter.
Yeesh people, I know its been a while since the last update but can't you even remember things that happened in the very last chapter?
Anyone can use a Broken Phantasm. Its literally just "fill this object with more prana than its capable of storing, so that it explodes".It wasn't a Broken Phantasm explosion. Considering the spears don't even belong to Sayaka I'm not even sure she COULD use them as a Broken Phantasm. Sometimes an explosion is just an explosion and not powered by a Broken Phantasm.
Given that neither of Lancer's spears have any effect related to explosions, and neither do any of Sayaka's attacks, can you really blame me for assuming that it was a Broken Phantasm? Especially considering that Lancer broke one of his spears during that fight in canon?
For not either remembering (which I don't blame you for) or going to reread the chapter in question? Yes.
- Location
- Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams
Pretty much. An Emiya/Assassin team might have steamrolled the Fourth Grail War if the Einzbern had let that happen, and even Tokiomi might have fared better if he had focused more on using Assassin to win rather than on using Assassin to help Archer win. Unfortunately, offing masters offscreen doesn't satisfy the Rule of Cool, so the Hashashin typically get the short end of the stick.
True story -- Taiga is the final boss in Fate/Zero's true ending, but Kiritsugu's partnership with Saber sadly wasn't strong enough for him to unlock that ending and he got the normal ending where the city goes up in flames instead.
Thank you! I'm glad you liked that scene. I felt something more was still called for to mark Caster's defeat, and I also wanted to include Taiga in the story somewhere. A visit to Ryuudou Temple seemed like a good way to do both and fit in more character exploration for Sayaka too. Despite being the main character, it's a struggle to keep her front and center in a cast this large.
That's my fault for taking so much time between chapters to update; I've had to go back and reread chapters to refresh my memory on details too. In this case, Sayaka used Lancer's spears to cut through Caster's giant monster and stab his spellbook, interrupting the flow of magic and causing the whole leviathan to explode. So, if anything, Caster's Grimoire was the Broken Phantasm. Lancer's spears made it out fine.
Technically speaking, Rider's ultimate noble phantasm is only a secret to Team Saber since Lancer and Sayaka saw Rider use it against Caster and Risei got many of the details in Chapter 10 through interrogating Ryuunosuke and talking to Kariya...but yeah, if Rider and Saber have an all-out battle in this story, Saber will likely be very surprised when Rider brings an army to their sword fight.
This is a crossover between Puella Magi Madoka Magica and Fate/Zero. It was either write angst or a crack ship, and the world isn't ready for Irisviel x Kyouko + Road Trip.
*Insert TAKEMYMONEY.gif*
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Do you... really think Sayaka would have broken one of Lancer's Noble Phantasms... after he lent them to her... and without asking?
Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
METOO METOO METOO
And isn't that just a tragedy, especially for an Assassin that was so cool and in many respects kind of utterly broken, this is way more interesting.
No problem, thank you for writing & responding! It was really great, and I definitely agree with you on that, it was a good way to close that particular arc/chapter of this series. Taiga's presence was great and I'm glad you included her, she and Sayaka's interactions were great, and yeah I can see why that would be difficult given the size and personalities of the cast.
I am ready for this!