If that was the only way to win, then yes.Do you... really think Sayaka would have broken one of Lancer's Noble Phantasms... after he lent them to her... and without asking?
Fate/Desiderantes Affectibus (Fate/Zero & PMMM Cross)
- Thread starter Rowan Seven
- Start date
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
They literally planned out what was going to happen, though. If she needed to break phantasms, she'd have asked.
"A plan never survives contact with the enemy".
Silvan Eldar
Aensland
- Location
- Makai
You know, now that you've put that into words they'll never let it go, right?
More seriously, that was a great chapter and I found it quite enjoyable to read.
Well, first, I question whether Sayaka even knows that you can do that with a Noble Phantasm (I'll assume yes for the sake of argument), second, if Sayaka did have to break the spear when they weren't planning on it do you honestly think she WOULDN'T have mentioned it afterwards and been all contrite and apologetic? The fact that such a scene didn't happen is pretty good proof that no Broken Phantasms were involved.
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DezoPenguin
Text Wall
- Location
- USA
I see what you did there.
Seriously, great story. Morning well spent. Looking forward to more chaos and suffering.
(You know, something I've never really understood about Saber's wish since Day 1. Who does she think would do a better job? I mean, she must have a candidate, right? Somebody she thinks would be a better King of Britain than her, who'd build something better that'd be less longer and promote the peace and weal of her citizens? 'Cause otherwise she's just wallowing in emo.)
Grue
滅亡迅雷
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There's a convenient magic sword in that there rock that'll find someone else more worthy?I see what you did there.
Seriously, great story. Morning well spent. Looking forward to more chaos and suffering.
(You know, something I've never really understood about Saber's wish since Day 1. Who does she think would do a better job? I mean, she must have a candidate, right? Somebody she thinks would be a better King of Britain than her, who'd build something better that'd be less longer and promote the peace and weal of her citizens? 'Cause otherwise she's just wallowing in emo.)
DezoPenguin
Text Wall
- Location
- USA
A convenient magic sword that, according to her theory, faffed up so badly the first time that it was necessary to use a wish-granting artifact to warp the fabric of time and history to spackle over the mistake.
Maybe she blames Merlin for doing something like convincing the sword that she was worthy?
Do you remember when Sayaka was introduced to Saber and thought someone had a bizarre wish that warped reality so Arthuria still fit into the legend? What if SOMEONE DID?
What if a former stable boy thought "That milkmaid would make better king than me. I wish she took over and I stay stable boy for the rest of my life."
What if a former stable boy thought "That milkmaid would make better king than me. I wish she took over and I stay stable boy for the rest of my life."
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Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
- -
Ah, the Arturia/ProtoArthur loop theory.
IIRC current official canon is that Arturia's wish would form a Singularity, though I can't cite that for the life of me.
So I'm curious. When Gilgamesh was staring intently at Sayaka after she talked about Madoka's sacrifice, was he invoking his omniscience-like ability in order to find out more about Madoka?
I'm talking about this thing.
I'm kinda curious on whether his opinion of those born as Divine Spirits would apply to a human who became a Divine Spirit purely through their own power.
He may hate gods, but he really likes seeing humans live up to their full potential.
I'm talking about this thing.
Article: Sha Nagba Imuru - The Omniscient Omnipotent Star
Rank: EX
Type: Anti-Unit
The mentality of the King of Heroes - which spread across all corners of the world as if the brilliance of the stars, seeing through all creation - sublimated into a Noble Phantasm. A continuously invoked-type Noble Phantasm. In regards to this work, the only Noble Phantasm he performs the release of True Name is the 「Gate of Babylon」.
The efficacy of the Noble Phantasm, Sha Nagba Imuru, is tremendous; not to mention the opponent's True Name and Noble Phantasm, it can even see through a heavily concealed truth with a single glance. Although it is in a condition of being continuously invoked, one can also assume that it is being intentionally restrained.
I'm kinda curious on whether his opinion of those born as Divine Spirits would apply to a human who became a Divine Spirit purely through their own power.
He may hate gods, but he really likes seeing humans live up to their full potential.
Difficult question, that specific ability should probably be limited to things that can be known within Gaia. So I think one can translate the question to, does Madoka fall under that system?
In that light, considering the start of the story, and considering the actual full scope of her wish and the reaction to it. I'd tentatively argue that she herself doesn't. But perhaps something in Gaia might still know about her regardless?
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Yeah, Sayaka's backhand here was both cute and in character. A solid 10+ from Omegahugger.I see what you did there.
I don't think they ever could've gotten along (because he's Gilgamesh), but at that moment I think Gilgamesh gained some genuine respect for Madoka despite never having met her. She might have ascended, but Madoka is still entirely human of nature and behavour, and her wish reflected that.
I am also not entirely sure if Madoka would count as a Divine Spirit by Nasu standards, but the metaphysics of that verse have always been beyond me.
I would argue that Madokami is something that transcends Nasu metaphysics. She is a law unto herself.
Well yeah, Madoka would never get along with Gilgamesh.....................except for MAYBE the shota version of him, but that version is hard to NOT get along with, especially when you add in Charisma + Charming Youth.
Gilgamesh having a positive opinion of you, and you having a positive opinion of Gilgamesh generally have wildly different conditions.
As for the Divine Spirit thing, there doesn't really seem to be a difference between a "god" and a "divine spirit" in the Nasuverse, and it's a bit difficult to argue that Madoka doesn't count as a "goddess", considering that that's exactly what Kyubey said that her Wish would make her become.
Omegahugger
Inattentive Idiot
Yes, Madoka was a goddess in the Madokaverse, but that doesn't neccesarily translate into her being a god in the Nasuverse. I mean, there are fictional verses where gods are literally aliens, and I think we agree that Madoka would be one of those just because she skipped universe.
Based on my reading of the Nasuwiki, Divine Spirits are formed by the thoughts and worship of the people believing in them. Which doesn't really fit Madoka unless we assume that Homura's mind retroactively brought her into existance*. Rather, Madoka seems more like a sentient law of physics, which would probably describe something like an Elemental or Nature Spirit more than a Divine Spirit.
*Which isn't as unlikely as it should be, given Rebellion
Is that definition for during or after the Age of Gods?
The end of the AoG did some really screwy things, like causing all Heroic Spirits whose existences were incompatible with the laws of the Age of Man (such as Herakles) to retroactively become fictional (with their non-fictional versions still being recorded in the Throne of Heroes, since it exists outside of time).
Grue
滅亡迅雷
- Location
- -
From what I vaugely remember of the new God lore introduced in Grand Order, she probably counts enough to be vunerable to Anti-God stuff if she was actually incarnated, but she's definitely not the standard example.
(...Hm. I'm slightly curious about how Madoka's stuff would interact with the Prisma event stuff, but I'd need to actually double-check the lore behind it because I barely remember it.)
(...Hm. I'm slightly curious about how Madoka's stuff would interact with the Prisma event stuff, but I'd need to actually double-check the lore behind it because I barely remember it.)
As an extra questions, are the Gods in nasuverse usually independent of Gaia? Or are they a dependent part?
TJSomething
That's... that's impossible!
Generally dependent. That's what was important about Gilgamesh revolting against the gods: it made humanity separate from Gaia.
Zaru
Beyond Prophecy
Also the Gods dicked around with him a lot.
See FGO. We have Arturia who ascended to godhood but is willing to genocide the 99% in order to create a truly Lawful Good Utopia in Camelot.
And in Babylon Gil was under constant siege from the Goddess Triumvirate, and he had an annoying but powerful foe in Ishtar.
And don't forget how Tiamat was this close to drowning the world in the Angra Mainyu mud.
And then there's Gil's legend.
He considers himself the highest authority yet he hates those above him ala the Deities. But he has a legit beef with those higher powers. Him speaking of Madoka in such a light shows his immense respect for a human being undergoing such a cycle and bearing all that weight out of altruism and compassion. Gil maybe an asshole, but he's an onion asshole. He has layers. He has emotions. He is human.
From what I understand, its more like Angra Mainyu's mud is a poor man's weaker version of Tiamat's mud.
- Location
- Zurvan, the Sea of Dreams
No. I will not write a story where Irisviel explains to Ilya how she got a tattoo and joined a Japanese biker gang and--wait, I'm already plotting it out, aren't I? NOOOOOO!!!!
Interestingly enough, there's a different (and possibly unfinished? I don't remember) F/Z & PMMM crossover somewhere on the Internet that has Saber win the Fourth Grail War and make her wish...and Morgan le Fay is the one who becomes ruler of Britain in her place. It's been a while since I read that story, but it made me think about the consequences of Saber's wish and whether her replacement would be someone she approves of. There are many different ways to rule a country and many different ways "better" can be defined, so what Saber imagines a superior king would be like might not be anything at all like what her wish actually provides.
I'm pleased you noticed that. I deliberately left that open-ended in case I decide to do more with Madoka's role in the story later (or rather, what impact her involvement in the War might have on Gilgamesh and whether he'll do things differently because of it).
I can agree with that. My knowledge of Type-Moon metaphysics is both outdated and shaky, but Madoka is different from the divine phenomena and magecraft that is empowered by belief because she is a self-originating being. So long as there are witches she will exist, and because she will become a witch herself someday she will always exist. Hence the ouroboros analogy in this chapter. That might give her some (limited) protection against Anti-God/Anti-Divine stuff, depending on its specific nature and how much rules lawyering is involved, but if she were to incarnate under Grail War rules she'd almost certainly be vulnerable to Anti-Divine noble phantasms.
Exactly. He and Madoka might not get along if they were ever to meet in person, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't respect her. Just as he fought against the gods, Madoka overturned the nature of the universe and became a law unto herself. That's the type of struggle Gilgamesh would definitely approve of.
No. I will not write a story where Irisviel explains to Ilya how she got a tattoo and joined a Japanese biker gang and--wait, I'm already plotting it out, aren't I? NOOOOOO!!!!
It all started when Kerry bought Irisviel a motorcycle instead of a car ...