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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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I'd prefer to stay in Luseng. The voters previously pushed rather hard to secure ourselves a Satrapy, and now that we've taken the posting and accepted an Intimacy to the people of Luseng, and spent over a month shoring up its economy into something that can effectively serve as a powerbase for us, flying in the face of that and just leaving... well, it doesn't mesh very neatly (or at all, really) with our previous choices. I want to actually build that Shining Metropolis; we've had chances to go off and do our own thing before, had opportunities to optimize for a skillset that promotes doing so, and you know what? We turned those down. For better or worse, we decided to be a general and an administrator, so let's play to those strengths.
 
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We can just come back and make the Metropolis later when we meet up with Lea and learn Sorcery so we can rule openly as a Solar instead of pretending to be a Dragonblood.
 
Orm Embar said:
I'd prefer to stay in Luseng. The voters previously pushed rather hard to secure ourselves a Satrapy, and now that we've taken the posting and accepted an Intimacy to the people of Luseng, and spent over a month shoring up its economy into something that can effectively serve as a powerbase for us, flying in the face of that and just leaving... well, it doesn't mesh very neatly (or at all, really) with our previous choices. I want to actually build that Shining Metropolis; we've had chances to go off and do our own thing before, had opportunities to optimize for a skillset that promotes doing so, and you know what? We turned those down. For better or worse, we decided to be a general and an administrator, so let's play to those strengths.
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You're more like a one-man army that can also lay down Kingdom-spanning Predictions; you lack any War or Bureaucracy Charms at all! Good thing you're not giving up the Crown this update...
 
1986ctcel said:
We can just come back and make the Metropolis later when we meet up with Lea and learn Sorcery so we can rule openly as a Solar instead of pretending to be a Dragonblood.
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I think that's exceedingly unlikely, since finding Lealope will take a massive amount of time, and learning and utilizing Sorcery will not mesh well with our Journey to the East. Even if we were presented with the opportunity to return, Luseng will have changed in our absence, and we'd be confronted with other things to do.
Cavalier said:
The sunk costs fallacy is not actually a good argument, no matter how well it appeals to the irrational aversion to loss built into human psychology.
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It's not just the investment of time and energy, it's the fact that we've made a commitment to the people of Luseng. Turning away now flies in the face of all our previous choices to uplift and protect them. You can call that the sunken cost fallacy all you'd like, but I would prefer not to leave people Odyssial cares for to suffer and die. What kind of precedent does that set?
 
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I don't really see any reason why we can't leave people to protect and take care of them, after dealing with all of the major threats.

If we stay there, it'll make Luseng a target of Anys. If we leave, it will no longer be that big on her target list. That's a bit meta, but I think IC we'll know about that soon enough.

I'm not really particularly opposed to staying though, as long as we drop the whole 'fake Dragonblood thing' that prevents us from building a grand city. As long as we don't turtle, but go out and start expanding our empire and doing interesting things.
 
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Rihaku said:
You're more like a one-man army that can also lay down Kingdom-spanning Predictions; you lack any War or Bureaucracy Charms at all! Good thing you're not giving up the Crown this update...
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Orm Embar said:
I think that's exceedingly unlikely, since finding Lealope will take a massive amount of time, and learning and utilizing Sorcery will not mesh well with our Journey to the East. Even if we were presented with the opportunity to return, Luseng will have changed in our absence, and we'd be confronted with other things to do.
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If getting sorcery means staying in Luseng for longer than just removing all the threats in it, I'm all for it. I would enjoy narrative focused on Luseng even without it! Also, getting Bureaucracy, War and maybe even Presence Charms should be feasible too with that extra XP generation. Combining Adamant Circle Sorcery with Solar-level administration could produce wonders.
 
meianmaru said:
If getting sorcery means staying in Luseng for longer than just removing all the threats in it, I'm all for it. I would enjoy narrative focused on Luseng even without it! Also, getting Bureaucracy, War and maybe even Presence Charms should be feasible too with that extra XP generation. Combining Adamant Circle Sorcery with Solar-level administration could produce wonders.
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Bureaucracy Charms are horrifically powerful within their purview. Anyway, I think it should be obvious that staying in a place with an economy that can provide us with any Sorcerous materials we care to acquire and the downtime necessary to focus on training it is far more conducive to learning Sorcery than embarking on an unprovoked journey to the far side of Creation, which will surely come with any number of distractions.
 
Cavalier said:
There's no real long-term advantage to staying in Luseng
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Please remember that during the empire/polis/metro vote QM explicitly said that we will eventually be able to shift gears (IIRC it was 3 months later).
Moving from lusang means starting from scratch. Staying in lusang means we can still start conquering outwards (empire) or delve the jade mountain (polis) once we finished achieving the metro objective.
furthermore, time dilation field will be fixed to a specific location. So leaving lusang means we lose this.

Now, if we do come up with a plan where abandoning lusang is explicitly better, sure I will vote for it. I have no sank cost attachment to the city. As far as I am concerned its a stepping stone. However, abandoning seems wasteful compared to just expanding outwards from it
 
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I know people are mad that we went to Luseng in the first place, but seriously? Just randomly uprooting ourselves and running off, right after our friends arrived?
 
I really don't want to turtle though. I'm willing to stay in Luseng, but only if we're willing to go out and start expanding our empire and conquering things and seizing the day, meet new people, etc etc.

Otherwise, I'd prefer to just take care of the dangers, leave someone in Luseng to keep it safe, and go forth and meet and engage with characters.
 
vel10 said:
I really don't want to turtle though. I'm willing to stay in Luseng, but only if we're willing to go out and start expanding our empire and conquering things and seizing the day.
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I think the plan was to build up and explode, unleashing a tide of Sorcerous creations and empowered formerly mortal warriors on our enemies.
vel10 said:
Otherwise, I'd prefer to just take care of the dangers, leave someone in Luseng to keep it safe, and go forth and meet and engage with characters.
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Plenty of characters to engage with here. We just had Nilul and Moon arrive, and we haven't even seen Ragmar/the Fae.
 
Savonarola said:
we haven't even seen Ragmar/the Fae.
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This is involved in 'taking care of the dangers.'

mrttao said:
Why do you guys want to kill ragmar? all you know about him is that he fights the realm, as a lunar that is a sensible thing to do. For all we know is he a staunch defender of creation and could easily be willing to serve us or ally with us.
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Well, we'll only find out if we go to deal with him, right? The fact that he's a barbarian invader-type doesn't make that sound promising, but he might be.

If he turns out to be a possible ally when we go to fight him, we'll see whether we want to ally with him then.
 
vel10 said:
Well, we'll only find out if we go to deal with him, right?
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Yes we would, which is why I am asking why people want to KILL him.
Because they literally and explicitly used the word kill, not "deal with him" (kill/recruit/ally depending on what we find out)

vel10 said:
The fact that he's a barbarian invader-type doesn't make that sound promising, but he might be.
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Having an army doesn't make him a barbarian invader type. He is specifically trying to conquer the jade mountain.
 
vel10 said:
This is involved in 'taking care of the dangers.'
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Aight. But if they're just dangers to be taken care of, then we aren't really staying around to engage with them, are we? We're just making a half-hearted effort to mop up before we close up shop, to better ease our conscience about what might befall Luseng while we're away. Nothing Ulyssian does should be halfhearted, in my opinion. If we're gonna stay and fight for the future of our adopted kingdom, we should reap the rewards.
vel10 said:
Well, we'll only find out if we go to deal with him, right? The fact that he's a barbarian invader-type doesn't make that sound promising, but he might be.

If he turns out to be a possible ally when we go to fight him, we'll see whether we want to ally with him then.
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Yeah, I don't like what he's done so far either. He's allied with the Bull, though, so killing him could be a stepping stone to war with the Bull and Samea, which could be... interesting. Or we could turn him, which would be more interesting still.
 
Savonarola said:
Aight. But if they're just dangers to be taken care of, then we aren't really staying around to engage with them, are we? We're just making a half-hearted effort to mop up before we close up shop, to better ease our conscience about what might befall Luseng while we're away. Nothing Ulyssian does should be halfhearted, in my opinion. If we're gonna stay and fight for the future of our adopted kingdom, we should reap the rewards.

Yeah, I don't like what he's done so far either. He's allied with the Bull, though, so killing him could be a stepping stone to war with the Bull and Samea, which could be... interesting. Or we could turn him, which would be more interesting still.
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Well the reason why I phrased it that way is because Rihaku has said that Lily hates the Fae so much that the only interaction with them she will accept is killing them all. So, we're going to have to murder them if we want to deal with them in any way. Plus, like you said, Ragmar doesn't seem very promising.

Admittedly, unlike most people, I don't much care for Lily, but realistically we're obviously going to keep her as an ally, consensus won't allow anything else, and she is still a valuable asset that we should keep on our side.
 
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vel10 said:
I really don't want to turtle though. I'm willing to stay in Luseng, but only if we're willing to go out and start expanding our empire and conquering things and seizing the day.
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Hmm. Could we first turtle up to get started up on the Shining Metropolis, then expand to the Polis of Legend and finally to the Seat of Empire? That way, while it will take us time to start at the build up, the end results would be likely better for all under us. Also, the Luseng Time-Bubble would make turtling more viable for "short-term", as that short-term gets streched to a longer period of time. Use the time to ready our supremely augmented mortal soldiers, then unleash them in a tide that swallows the Realm.

On reasons why to remain, if we are going the Empire route at some point, securing the Imperial City and the Sword of Creation could be a good incentive. With knowing that the Scarlett Empress is scheming with the Ebon Dragon, it would be tremendously bad for her to take back power.

However, there remains one question? How are we going to handle Zao? Us going murderhoboing will likely annoy him greatly, while revealing our true Exaltation will put him in quite difficult situation. If we can get him and at least part of the Navy on our side with this, conquering even the Blessed Isle becomes suddenly possible in a reasonable time-frame.
 
vel10 said:
Well the reason why I phrased it that way is because Rihaku has said that Lily hates the Fae so much that the only interaction with them she will accept is killing them all. So, we're going to have to murder them if we want to deal with them in any-way. Plus, like you said, Ragmar doesn't seem very promising.
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He's treacherous. We just have to be the guy with the biggest stick in the yard and then offer him the carrot of continued existence.
vel10 said:
Admittedly, unlike most people, I don't much care for Lily, but realistically we're obviously going to keep her as an ally, consensus won't allow anything else, and she is still a valuable asset that we should keep on our side.
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Who knows? If the opportunity comes, abandoning the Lily might find some traction. I think she's naive and not really a good influence on Ulyssian, and IC Ulyssian only has a minor Intimacy towards her, as opposed to the Major one he holds for Luseng... We're more likely to abandon her than the Satrapy, not that that really says much. Historically, Ulyssian has been opposed to betraying his friends.

So why, then, do people seem to want to betray Nilul and Moon?
 
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Orm Embar said:
Yes. Yes, we did. And now that our friends have finally arrived, people think it seems to be a capital time to have it again, and I frankly don't see a single drop of in-character reasoning to support such a wildly divergent course of action.
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The option description for Embrace explains it - governing a Satrapy is simply inefficient use of Ulyssian's time. Since it also constitute as Ulyssian's thought process, that actually is the IC reason for leaving. And no one makes Moon and Nilul remain in the city, there might be possibility of teaming up.
 
Gerrou said:
The option description for Embrace explains it - governing a Satrapy is simply inefficient use of Ulyssian's time.
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It says he acknowledges that only strength can save Creation and he most focus on one goal above all others, reevaluating his priorities. It makes no mention of what form that strength must take, nor does it even reference Luseng at all. Even if we wind up Embracing the Clarity (no sure thing), the Satrapy could still be a weapon in our arsenal.
 
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That might be the most mechanically optimal path, but if we are going to use that as the excuse to do so, we should just end this quest now.

There is no point in having a quest if the decisions are simply going to boil down to which path has the maximum expected utility, with all other factors being deemed unimportant.
 
Orm Embar said:
It says he acknowledges that only strength can save Creation and he most focus on one goal above all others, reevaluating his priorities. It makes no mention of what form that strength must take, nor does it mention Luseng at all. Even if we wind up Embracing the Clarity (no sure thing), the Satrapy could still be a weapon in our arsenal.
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I think Rihaku stated that, without the time bubble, going and finding Lea is by far the most efficient option for saving the most people. The time bubble makes staying in Luseng much more efficient, but it's still a bit of an underdog. Still, they're both explicitly IC.

The point is that either option is justifiable IC and it's about personal interests, not about IC justification. Please don't try to say 'there is no IC reason to leave' and use that as a primary argument. That's not what we're debating about.
 
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