It keeps our Limit down and makes Ulyssian happy, so it's hardly pointless. Plus, if we take Sorcery and augment her, then spending time with Moon could mean crushing our enemies and seeing them driven before us!
[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
- Start date
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- Tags
- exalted (white wolf)
Dang it guys Odyssial has been putting off learning sorcery for 5 millennia already, let's finally learn it and stop putting it off for "downtime" later. There's always gonna be some downsides and always gonna be other shinies. If we pick it up now we're done with this argument forever!
And then catch a sudden case of dead and have to start over again anyways with a fresh character! Didn't think of that did you?
- Location
- The savanna.
Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with mrttao and the other when they say there'll be other chances, but... the timing is never gonna be perfect. We've had many chances before and will probably have more later, but that's not the problem. There'll always be opportunity costs to sitting down and learning do master the fundamental forces of the universe. But it'll just be so interesting, though; we get to initiate the Odyssian way, reawaken our ability to intimidate the fabric of reality.
- Location
- USA
The issue is, the timing is "not perfect" now because the opportunity cost of doing so is massive. Simply put, learning sorcery right now is taking flash over substance and passing on a massive hueg increase in power (both immediate and long term) because we got impatient.
If we really never find the time to do so than it means that there is never a time when it is actually the best choice. In which case, I won't shed a tear. because if each turn we can encounter something more valuable than sorcery than i would be VERY happy at our amazing luck and the boons we receive.
- Location
- The savanna.
Yeah, what the hell happened to Thrown, anyway? At this rate we'd have been better off favoring Dodge, because we haven't thrown so much as a pebble at anyone yet.
- Location
- The savanna.
But... we're not passing on a long term increase in power? Getting Sorcery now means we're weaker in the short term due to a less happy population, but in the long run it's absolutely the stronger choice once we get Workings up and running. WtS is something we're getting either way, it just means we might have to wait a little while. The only really valid argument I see for getting it now is if you're afraid Anys is going to swoop down and kill us inside of, like, a week.
- Location
- USA
Isn't our specialty melee combat anyways?
That is a pretty reasonable fear. And the working will take several weeks to work, which means we will probably get attacked by Anys before we can finish them.
- Location
- The savanna.
It is, but we took Thrown as a favored ability as well, I think.
- Location
- USA
As explicitly and repeatedly quoted and stated
Our population has nothing to do with it. Its the fact that we pass up on waking the sleeper this turn which means we are passing on 4-5 new titles worth of powerup.
And while it is true that sorcery lets us build up power over time, 4-5 new titles also allow us to build up over time, and much more of it.
Not true, we can acquire odyssials old armor and then we will not wake the sleeper on this armor. Or we can quest over, or we can lose the armor.
And even so, just because we are going to eventually get it anyways doesn't make a lick of difference that in both the short AND long term, our growth is best served by passing on sorcery this turn to get WtS on the armor faster.
In 1 week, 1 year, 10 years, 100 years... in all of those our power will be bigger (by a lot) if we get WtS now instead of sorcery. That includes both personal power, followers, and property
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To be fair? We are making large amounts of progress towards Sorcery this update with the current popular vote. Occult 5 is something we are picking up. That is not in doubt. What we are doing is setting up our base of operations on top of that. To cement our power.
Any's coming down on us like the hand of god is going to happen sooner rather then later. We want to also have as many of the spies removed from our area of the world before we reveal our self to be anathema. Its not like we have taken down the immaculate faith yet and made being anathema an acceptable state of being in the Realm. If we had I would have entirely different priorities for this update. Sorcery of the Solar circle that also isn't being limited by no powerbase to work from but instead backed up by the Realm? Totally worth going for but we don't have that as an option. We are working towards this but its going to take a while.
Any's coming down on us like the hand of god is going to happen sooner rather then later. We want to also have as many of the spies removed from our area of the world before we reveal our self to be anathema. Its not like we have taken down the immaculate faith yet and made being anathema an acceptable state of being in the Realm. If we had I would have entirely different priorities for this update. Sorcery of the Solar circle that also isn't being limited by no powerbase to work from but instead backed up by the Realm? Totally worth going for but we don't have that as an option. We are working towards this but its going to take a while.
Yes, swooping is bad.
Hm, the way I see it, a loyal population is a prerequisite for a Sorcerous legion, but there is much more that can be done with Sorcery than merely empowering our armies. It opens a nigh-infinite number of doors for us, doors that will stay open no matter the fate of Luseng. No matter now much of a hold we gain on the region, there's always the risk that Anys will come along and wrest control of it from us, rendering our efforts in that area retroactively pointless. Govern Well locks us into one path, hitching our power to the cart of Luseng's prosperity. Also, Sorcery might help us with mastering the Sword... and saving our Wake the Sleeper charge might really help us in that area.
- Location
- USA
are we? in every single update so far we have chosen to not upset the immaculate faith
we voted against subversion, we voted again immaculate heresy prophecy, we voted against seat of empire.
Have we ever actually taken a concrete step towards creating immaculate heresy and towards being openly anathema?
- Location
- The savanna.
Temporarily, yes. We can turn around and get them the instant a new Story starts.
WtS doesn't work that way; it's a one-time boost, unlocking a bunch of Evocations for an Artifact. It doesn't snowball into greater power in the way Sorcery does.
Lealope has our other armor, I don't think we're going to get it anytime soon. I don't think we need to seriously worry someone's going to steal it, either, because Ulyssian is paranoid as fuck and probably sleeps in the stuff.
Why? It's a unique boost in personal power. We can get it now or we can get it later, the results will be the same. The only risk is the risk posed by Anys, which is admittedly significant, but I don't buy that passing up Sorcery is best for our long-term growth.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
Problem with all this Orm is that if we absolutely need a Sorcerous Working that doesn't require Solar-circle... We can call in a favor for it.
We don't need it right this second, and solidifying our foundation and getting Moon and our other allies under our aegis before Anys brings down the hammer will be more than valuable.
We don't need it right this second, and solidifying our foundation and getting Moon and our other allies under our aegis before Anys brings down the hammer will be more than valuable.
- Location
- USA
Except I have repeatedly and explicitly explained to you how it does work that way and you keep ignoring it.
A one time boost can and will result in an overall growth bonus since we always build on our previous successes.
We can recruit more solaroids, conquer more land, subvert more DBs, kill more enemies, acquire better sorcery reagents, etc etc etc.
A one time boost to slaying power that lets you kill off the fae army in a month instead of a year means you just earned 11 months of free time to research. (where a year is how long it would take us to kill them with sorcery, and 2 years without either sorcery or wts. Those are numbers I just invented for the sake of example, of course the actual number differ. could be better, could be worse... it could even be the difference between loss and victory. where we quest over without it and win with it)
Yes she does, and it is possible to acquire it before WtS on this armor depending on our choices
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- Location
- The savanna.
Okay, so you're arguing that increased combat power will result in more opportunities. That's fine; I still think Sorcery is far more useful than raw killing power, especially since we decided not to go all Genghis Khan on the other Satrapies.
We chose the Metropolis, so we're not going to be recruiting Solaroid or conquering more land, we'll be building with that we have. Sorcery helps us build more than skill at swording people. Not all problems can be solved with a sword, as Ulyssian has learned to his chagrin.
I doubt it, considering that we have to go an epic quest on the far side of the world to meet Lealope, and that would certainly trigger a new Story, which would trigger WtS on our armor.
Wouldn't Ayala be the one demanding favors for Workings? I think Rihaku said something to that effect.
Better to have and not need, than need and not have... I'm not contesting that Govern Well is better in the short term, I'm just looking to the future; we aren't guaranteed to keep control of Luseng. Massive lateral expansions in our personal capabilities are very worthwhile in the long run.
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And it's better to have 15+ armor evocations and not need them than need them and not have them. So what do you think is more likely: Anys attacks us directly and we need combat charms, or we get into a situation where we absolutely need sorcery and can't have any of our allies do it for us instead?
- Location
- USA
We chose metropilis which word of god is the one where we rely leasy on army and most on personal power as well as having the most personal combat growth (something I argued against and QM then shut me down).
We are still at war with 3 other bodies, fae, lunars, and deathlords.
By massively boosting our own personal combat power we can win those 3 wars faster.
By doing that we can then spend more time studying sorcery since we actually have free time and no wars.
We have yet to fully conquer the areas planned to as a metropolis. We have already recruited lily and we might yet recruit from the lunars or the fae.
The seat of empire would have had us recruit probably dozen/s solaroids. Now we might recruit a handful
Armor is not a sword.
Remember the huge shitfit people threw over lily's potential to subvert our mind? oh look, armor can protect against this
And QM did hint we have no defense against poison right now and that anys will use it against us
It might not be highly likely, but it is a possibility.
I find it equally unlikely that we will never learn sorcery
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Well, we can hardly whistle up Ayala from across Creation to help us out at a moment's notice, and in instances where we're facing the forces of hell, there's kind of a conflict of interest for her. Say Anys comes at us with a demonic army, that's a scenario where Adamant Circle Banishment would be very useful. That, or for getting rid of 3CDs that she might have access to.
Alectai
Speaks Words of Wisdom... On occasion
If we end up in a position where we can't hold Luseng despite our personal power at this time (And especialyl with the further amplification we'll get when the Story ends and we can use WtS again), we'll have bigger problems, like not being killed, and Sorcery's biggest draws are when you have resources and prep-time.
Which would both be in short supply if we lose Luseng, which becomes more likely if we ignore developing it in favor for getting Sorcery this instant.
Know what is a useful replacement for banishment and has other uses as well? Combat charms and Evocations.