[Exalted, ?] Most High

A world of perfect happiness and fulfillment for everyone and everything?

Yeah, but how does that even happen unless you shunt everyone into their own private happy place, or completely rewrite their souls so that they exist in perfect harmony with each other, and effectively kill the individuals?

"Perfect Happiness" plus "Actual people you can interact with" are pretty much mutually exclusive goals.

Unless, of course, he considered "Everyone is a universe of their own and can be perfectly happy at all times because all of their whims will be visited upon them" to be optimal, becuase that would be what he would consider nice, and Odyssial is fucking crazy
 
Yet he never bothered to fix that? A man who apparently had infinite power, endless intellect, and peerless skill beyond sorcery, was apparently cowed because a few parts of the foundation were objectionable?

That he was so full of pride that he refused to repair a broken foundation, despite it being well within his abilities? Or that it was too difficult for a man who otherwise could do exactly what he pleased?

Maybe it's just me being reminded of my programming days lately, but starting over from scratch is usually easier and better than hacking into convoluted codes made by a gaggle of mad geniuses.

When we extrapolate to things like the laws of physics, the after life and divine bureaucracy. Fundamentally changing them while they are in play is pretty damn difficult, and the sort of knock on effects of changing anything would be pretty huge.

Also, if you imagine Creation as a hugely complicated machine that is currently running. If one didn't like the design, and wanted to make changes, he would have to stop the machine first.

edit: another analogy. If you wanted to change the engine of a car, you stop the car first. Changing out the engine while the car is speeding down the highway will just result in hilarity, usually in a bad way.
 
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I mean, sure, Odyssial might have noticed a few cracks in the wall--perhaps X is not as happy as Y, or perhaps Y is two femtosatisfies less than Z. But for all intents and purposes, it would still be a marvellous house that would satisfy anyone who didn't have transcendent awareness who could accurately read the molecular structure of the whole thing.

But Creation is a shithole for mortals. The mad Solars were probably better than the Primordials, but they still weren't particularly good. And even the non-mad Solars were still human beings with all the failings that implies. Even the First Age wasn't much better than modern Earth in terms of amenities and general quality of life, except they had seven hundred nigh-immortal and completely unchecked god-monarchs instead of representative government. And, given the nature of human minds in these physics, it's fundamentally easy to inflict horrifying agony with a mere few physical alterations, while it's extremely difficult to attain even fleeting moments of true happiness, much less the positive correlate of extreme torture (usually only achieved by talented contemplatives who have spent decades in isolation).

Compare that to, say, the Culture, and the gaps are huge. Which is a shame because there was nothing stopping the Solars from achieving Culture or even Xeelee-level levels of widespread well-being, save for their own complacency and interest in individual diversions. They could have even done it within Creation as-is, though it would have taken a lot more communal effort and the end result would still have been less magnificent than a reality specifically tailored to human values.
 
Yeah, but how does that even happen unless you shunt everyone into their own private happy place, or completely rewrite their souls so that they exist in perfect harmony with each other, and effectively kill the individuals?
Since I am regrettably not a hyper-intelligent Solaroid with five thousand years of experience, I don't have an answer to this question. All I can is that Odyssial did have one, or he wouldn't have acted as he did.
 
Ughh.

I do wish I didn't always get told off on how stupid I am for trying to second-guess Odyssial's vaguely worded goals, because clearly they're the best possible action ever.

I mean, we keep hearing 'The problems Hubris brings', as a major theme, but that kind of falls flat when the next step is "... But Odyssial is always right, and if you disagree, it's because you're wrong, because he's better than you are in every conceivable way and you should just trust that doing what he wants at all times will make things better".

It'd be one thing if these things were IC remarks, but that it's bleeding over to the OOC to the point where I can't even question Odyssial's goals without getting dogpiled for lacking faith in the heartless overman kind of makes me feel like I shouldn't bother participating. Or that tearing out your feelings in favor of ruthless efficiency is the only possible way to create a nice world.
 
I mean, we keep hearing 'The problems Hubris brings', as a major theme, but that kind of falls flat when the next step is "... But Odyssial is always right, and if you disagree, it's because you're wrong, because he's better than you are in every conceivable way and you should just trust that doing what he wants at all times will make things better".

Except... Odyssial got stomped down hard for a few thousand years? So his approach clearly did have flaws?

Always knowing the most correct answer is not worth much if you're not also able to effectively implement it.
 
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I do wish I didn't always get told off on how stupid I am for trying to second-guess Odyssial's vaguely worded goals, because clearly they're the best possible action ever.

I give you guys plenty of warning about Odyssial in a number of fields. Just because he's not always right, doesn't mean he's always wrong either. And the values he optimizes for are his, not necessarily Uly's. His Limit Break is the best for him, not necessarily for Uly. His legacy is one of terror and intermittent goodness.

I honestly think you are misremembering or just overreacting when you make statements like this. I recall several examples that contradict your "I always get told off" complaint, so it can't be always. I don't even think it's a majority of the time, you just seem to focus a lot more on negative interactions than neutral or positive ones. *Shrug*

It'd be one thing if these things were IC remarks, but that it's bleeding over to the OOC to the point where I can't even question Odyssial's goals without getting dogpiled for lacking faith in the heartless overman kind of makes me feel like I shouldn't bother participating. Or that tearing out your feelings in favor of ruthless efficiency is the only possible way to create a nice world.

There's no need to adopt any of Odyssial's methodologies in order to create a better Creation. They are just the path that he was most suited to. For example, someone who had the prowess of Odyssial in combat, but applied to socially convincing people, probably would have created a First Age that never ends, because the Bronze Faction would have found no traction, and Creation would be far better off than it was today. But then there wouldn't be much of a story.
 
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It'd be one thing if these things were IC remarks, but that it's bleeding over to the OOC to the point where I can't even question Odyssial's goals without getting dogpiled for lacking faith in the heartless overman kind of makes me feel like I shouldn't bother participating.
Getting dogpiled is not fun at all, but I would hardly characterize a mere couple pages of two or three-way debate as such.
Or that tearing out your feelings in favor of ruthless efficiency is the only possible way to create a nice world.
It's... not? It's just the most efficient way to create the nicest world, in Odyssial's opinion. Rihaku was careful to qualify his explanation with a 'well, that's how Odyssial would put it' conclusion.
 
Let's take an example off the top of my head.
Human in Creation was created to pray and funnel prayer to higher beings. Which is one of the reason that Gods like to mess with human, they want to extract more prayers.

If humans of Creation were changed so that they are no longer prayer cattle, the sort of 'divine' intervention that cause problems will go away. Let's say this is something we want to achieve in our ideal world. And we work our sorcery and make that happen. all of a sudden, the gods are dying because of the lack of prayers and then physics stop working and everyone dies.

Another example, gods being jerks and not doing their job properly. The apple will fall because the god of the apple is being told to fall by the god of gravity, who sometimes gets lazy and enjoy soliciting sex and drugs from his subordinates as tributes. A better system would include 'gods' with no personality what so ever, who will not tire in their work, or even capable of even think of not doing their jobs. SO Oddyssial go to lobotomize the god of gravity and turn him into a weak AI who will always fulfill their function to the best of his ability and no more and no less. During this however, gravity stops working, or even goes crazy while the guy fights back. He will call up every favor he owns as a fairly powerful god, who will all get pissy and start striking or actively break stuff. End result, total cluster fuck that may well end with everyone dead anyway.

Building a new system straight up will be both easier and better than the alternative of screwing around within an established system while it is in operation.
 
Ten thousand dooms face the canon Creation, and in many versions it is assuredly screwed.
Minor nitpick: This is not true of canon, 3E Creation. They were intentionally removed by the devs in order to allow for local level stories to take place, instead of there existing a mood of imminent doom that forces players to abandon stories that could otherwise have been played out in favor of rapidly scaling up to face said dooms. This version of Creation is rather more doomed than canon Creation.
 
I mean, what the hell even meets Odyssial's standards as being a "Utopia?" That it was impossible to achieve in the framework that already existed with his infinite power and drive? Certainly, it was entirely possible to become infinitely close!
While this is a valid question you should really keep in mind just how shitty Creation is for the average resident.
 
Minor nitpick: This is not true of canon, 3E Creation. They were intentionally removed by the devs in order to allow for local level stories to take place, instead of there existing a mood of imminent doom that forces players to abandon stories that could otherwise have been played out in favor of rapidly scaling up to face said dooms. This version of Creation is rather more doomed than canon Creation.

The level of doom is "salt to taste" in 3E, as so many things are. There's been a bit of nWoD-idification of the setting in that sense, though not for bad reasons, and I understand the devs themselves are wary of going full nWoD.

However, this quest was started in 2E and ran for tens of thousands of words in 2E, so some foundational 2E assumptions that cannot be easily removed without completely overwriting the entire quest do exist. As far as the number of dooms facing this Creation, they are assuredly lower, it's just that all the dooms that the Sids would have taken care of are kind of running rampant because there is no organized Sid powerbase anymore. The higher-quality and thus much more important dooms are, of course, almost all intact.
 
And I wholeheartedly agree with you on this score. We shouldn't disregard our previous choices and efforts to build a harmonious civilization in favor of nabbing shiny, powerful combatants that synergize very poorly with what we're trying to create.
lilly is not just a combatant, she is also able to apply obscene buffs to ANYTHING we do.
We want to build a working to mass produce human sorcerers? she can buff that
we want to wake the sleeper on the armor? she can buff that too (this one explicitly stated by QM)
 
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At this point, I don't care that much which option wins, just the fact that we can move on to the next choice instead of beating upon this dead horse.
 
With Lies Bequeathed
With Lies Bequeathed

The moon was an opalescent orb that hung like a festival lantern in the clear, wide dark of the sky. The night had grown cloudless, and the stars were arrayed in a glittering wash across the heavens. The crisp, chill breeze of evening carried with it the scent of azaleas in blossom. Ulyssian sat in the furrow of a devastated hillside and gazed upwards. All of life since he'd become the Satrap of Luseng had been a constant and exacting rush of thoughts. It was rare that he had the opportunity to meditate in stillness, without an immediate problem at hand.

He thought of his friends. Empty Moon, Tepet Nilul, Mountain Hero, Nellens Saery - were any of them also, in this very moment, looking up at this very moon? It was unlikely, but the strangely melancholic sentiment pervaded him anyway. Odyssial had fought for years before meeting Lea, let alone Pearl. In all that time, he'd had comrades but no true friends. And he hadn't felt any particular need for companionship. Ulyssian himself had maintained an essentially solitary existence, free of any deep emotional connections, for all the long, grueling years of his pre-Academy training.

Beside him, the Lily murmured gently, then sat up and groaned. "Looks like you got me," she said softly, gathering the dark ink of her hair into a ponytail. It nestled gently against the striking curve of her cheek, reaching almost to her waist.

Ulyssian grunted in acknowledgement.

For a time, the two sat silently, looking out upon the shattered landscape that their battle had produced. Great yawning chasms of rent earth and shattered stone; trees hurled like toothpicks and fields ravaged by gargantuan lines of sheer force. If a hurricane could move dirt and loam as easily as wind and rain, the result may have looked something like this. The light of the moon gave all of it an otherworldly quality, as if the surreal landscape before them was no mortal clearing, but rather the entrance of some fantastic domain - the quicksilver gateway into a war-minded Raksha freehold, or the battlefield-ruin that was both entrance and warning sign to a Behemoth's burrowing lair.

"I can't believe I actually lost," The Lily said, mournfully. "I haven't lost since I died."

"My post-Exaltation win streak is still alive," Odyssial replied. Then he remembered the training fights with Zao. "In fights that matter, anyway." He scowled.

She giggled. "That's impressive! You're too strong to have Exalted any time soon. Being undefeated for several years, huh..."

"It was only six months ago," he admitted. "I haven't had that many serious fights. It was mostly luck, I think." Given how weak he was, it was assuredly luck. Only in this last contest, against The Lily, had he truly plumbed the depths of the desperation and skill that he'd summoned as a mortal. Exaltation had made him too complacent.

"Hmph!" She turned coquettishly away from him. "So it wasn't very many fights, but you got that strong in six months anyway? That sure makes me feel better!"

In retrospect, that hadn't quite come out the way he'd wanted. "I'm not particularly adept with words," he said. "That wasn't intentional."

"I know, I was just joking!" She said brightly, turning again to favor him with a heartstopping smile. "You're too serious, Odyssial. But, after fighting you... I don't think you're a bad person. You're the Realm Satrap for this region, aren't you? That's pretty rare."

"One can never be too serious, in this world," Odyssial replied haughtily. "And yes, Satraps are quite rare. There aren't that many satrapies."

"I take back what I said earlier," She answered playfully. "You're a terrible person! At least, if your sense of humor is anything to judge by."

"As was the last Satrap, you say?" He turned to regard her curiously. "I haven't heard anything particularly bad about him, besides his lack of martial skill."

"He liked caning people for sport," The Lily said darkly, "he had a big collection of different canes and cords and whips, and he'd try them out on villagers when he ranged to oversee the province."

"I see." Among Dynasts, an eccentricity of that level would be considered extremely restrained, not even worth the attention of the most stringent auditor. A small evil in the grand scope of things, but that hardly mattered to the people it was inflicted upon.

"I know the Realm does not have a good reputation here," he continued, "but I intend to change that. I want to protect the people of Luseng. I want them to be safe, prosperous, and happy. I think you may have similar goals. If that's the case, then we don't have to be enemies."

"We're enemies?" The Lily asked curiously, cocking her head.

There was a pause.

"...The point is, I don't think we should be," Ulyssian continued, "not if our goals align. We may not agree on how best to do certain things, so working together might be counterproductive, but we should coordinate and stay out of each other's way. I can post guards near the Mountain once I repel Ragmar's forces. The city is presently overcrowded, but I am working on infrastructure and food supply. Within two months, I think we should be able to take in your refugees and settle them, if they'd like. It would be faster, but the viziers are a bureaucratic nightmare, and I'm not well suited to navigating around their constant manipulations."

"You're not a very good liar," The Lily nodded. "But that's good, because I can believe what you say. It would really help these people a lot, to live near a city instead of out here..."

"Okay!" She decided. "Yes, let's be allies! Friends?" She held out a hand for him to shake.

He took it. "Do I have to also be your friend?"

"You don't want to?" She faux-wilted.

"I've been told that I'm a terrible friend," He said sardonically.

"Well, don't worry about that," She shrugged, cheerful. "I'm a great friend, so it'll make up for you and more!"

"As long as that's clear, then." They shook on it.

"Now, I've got two things to give you," The Lily said, standing up and unbuckling her gauntlet. "First, my armor. You won fair and square, but please don't attack the Mountain?"

He stood up to face her. "I don't intend to, but will you be alright without that armor?"

"I don't get hit much anyway," she said airily, waving it off. "Don't worry about me!"

The scale and plate receded into the shape of an egg on a choker around her neck, which she unbuckled and handed to him. Standing jauntily in the leathers and padding - also monochromatic - she wore below, she cut no less striking a figure.

He accepted the egg, as well as her statement, with equanimity. If there was anyone he could trust to take care of themselves, The Lily was, very much so.

"What about Ragmar's forces?" He asked. "Are they intent on exploiting the Mountain? Will they see the loss of your armor as weakness? If its insides are too dangerous for one Exalt to traverse, maybe the two of us together could clear it out?"

"Hmm," she tapped her foot thoughtfully, then shook her head. "No, it doesn't feel like we could. I'm sorry for being so vague! But, I really feel like I can trust my instincts in this case. And, If Ragmar thinks I'm weak because of some armor, I'll just send his soldiers packing again!"

"In that case, it seems my concern is entirely unnecessary," Ulyssian concluded, relieved that he had discharged any comradely duties. "I'll be seeing you, friend."

"Not so fast!" With liquid speed she darted forth. "I said I had two things to give you."

So saying, she stood on her tip-toes and kissed him - not on the lips, but right next to them, on the corner of his mouth.

"What- you-"

She giggled again. "It's good that you're honest, Odyssial, but a Satrap should be better at lying. So, there you go. See what a wonderful friend I am?"

Improbable as it sounded, whatever she'd done had worked. As he carefully schooled his features to conceal his embarrassment, he saw instantly the flaws in his previous social facade. It was as if a well of hidden devious potential had been unlocked within him.

His face and voice reacted with the fluidity of a master thespian. "I'm touched," he affected, channeling Nilul.

"Yes- indeed-" His voice trembled in an admixture of grimness and awe, like a devoted cynic whose shrunken heart had at last begun to beat. "I can feel it now, this power, coruscating within my veins - it is nothing less than the magic of friendship! I was blind, but now I can see clearly, as if for the very first time... There is no force, no evil in this Creation that can do anything but kneel, kneel before this pure, clear, earnest and endearing strength! So full of sound and fury! And yet signifying - nothing!"

"I give you power, and you use it to mock me," The Lily pouted.

"Well, there you go," Odyssial replied. "See what a terrible friend I am?"

---

They arranged to meet covertly in the future, and to stay in contact about each other's plans. The Satrap made his way back to his satrapy, and The Lily, to the valley where her small army of followers now resided.

So, we got a compromise vote this time. The Lily will not be hanging around Luseng, and will neither openly constrain your range of actions nor be able to stop you if you Limit Break. However, you do get Essence 5 and her friendship, though you'll have to seek her out if you want to change her buff or get Empowering Shout'ed for a roll. Her refugees are a good source of population and you are technically their lord, so you should really work on integrating them if you have the time. Also, you may Limit Break by choosing enough actions, below.

The Lily has given you the benefit of her Favor-Conferring Prana, which now adds +2 to your Manipulation and Socialize scores. Be grateful, this costs her committed motes!

Next up:

It's timeskip time! I wonder what Anys Syn is up to...

Moon and Nilul will be visiting your province once Zao deems it safe. That will also mark the beginning of a new Story and the ability to use Wake the Sleeper again. Each update will cover a set period of time, though we may drop back into the thick of things if there's a crisis event.

Do note that Limit Breaking during a timeskip will cause much, much more wide-ranging consequences and may distort or alter your chosen actions. The personal consequences are not as likely to be relevant, though Talomar and your other officers aren't necessarily safe.

Choose two actions, then you may choose up to three additional actions at the cost of 2 Stress each. Your current Stress is 5.

[ ] Thaumaturgical Explorations - You must take either this or Training in order to take Upon the Crown. Talomar has taken the initiative to categorize and defend the assembled thaumaturges of the city. Having reviewed their abilities, he has found mostly unspectacular arts. But perhaps you can think of applications that he has missed? He notes that your "weird" mindset might help in this case. Counts as Training Time for the Occult skill, which you need at 5 in order to purchase Solar Circle Sorcery. Also, roll 5d10. For each success, find a mildly useful thaumaturgical application. For each 10, find an extremely useful thaumaturgical application.

[ ] Consolidate Power - With your newly acquired skill at manipulation, you see that the viziers have been even busier than you originally thought, and not in a manner beneficial to yourself. There is evidence that some have been conspiring with the Realm against you, and that talk is beginning to foment about reaching out to the Fae again. Restructure the government to rely on a different class of exam-certified mandarins, removing the current eunuch system, and make an example of those who believe that their competent administration excuses them of other faults. Do so before this rot has had a chance to sink in, and the entire business becomes much more difficult than it already is. [Increases public loyalty, removes the viziers from power once and for all. Channels any Limit Break acquired into a more... focused manifestation]

[ ] Govern Wisely, Govern Well - May be taken any number of times. Spend time and energy tending to the administration and defense of Luseng. Amplifies the effects of your economic restoration projects last turn and improves population mood. If taken multiple times, greatly improves population mood and other factors. However, you will only be able to use Prophecies sparingly, as you've drawn down your personal funds and Luseng isn't yet profitable to the degree that you can conduct extensive experimentation and censuses.
-[ ] Bankrupt your personal reserve to allow for intermittent use of Prophecies. Greatly enhances the effectiveness of this option, especially if taken 3 or more times.
-[ ] You may write in specific areas of government that you wish to focus on; for example, economics, or crime and safety, or recruiting troops for the local garrison / Legion

[ ] Upon the Crown - It has become clear that even superhuman administration cannot get the results you desire for Luseng. At least, not in the time window you desire. A more direct means to power is required. Though it will isolate you further from the populace and forever alter your nature, it is time for you to take up the study of Sorcery. An intensive program of will-working will allow you to harness the very energies of creation to your agenda... but at what cost? [Cost: You must fill out your Charm Cap from E4 and also buy Terrestrial, Celestial, and Solar Circle Sorcery. At least one Sorcery charm must be flash-bought. If you do not have enough XP, you will stop at a lower Circle of Sorcery this action. Population Loyalty and Mood will decrease as you lock yourself into your chambers to pursue this mad and dangerous path. If you are seen performing feats of Sorcery beyond Terrestrial Circle Sorcerers, such as completing a Solar Working within weeks, you will be known to be Anathema. Some of these downsides may be mitigated with stunting. Decreases loyalty of Uncle Pan, who disapproves heavily of Sorcerers. Counts as three (3) actions.]

[ ] Training [-2 Stress] - Training, that ever-necessary exercise. How you've missed having time to train! No matter, you will now make time. [You may train 240,000 XP.]

[ ] Write-In - All military activities are write-in for this phase. You may also write-in stunts for any of the given options, or come up with your own! For example, you may want to visit the Lily to get her help for a project you're attempting, or to change your buff.
 
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Alright I think the better plan to make the city better and safer while improving ourselves (and reducing Limit Braking chances is)


[ ] Consolidate Power
[ ] Govern Wisely, Govern Well

[ ] Training x 3 (?) Times if we have enough XP.

Training negates any stress gain by over going the limit and lets us get stronger. Yay.

Consolidate Power is an important step towards making the city safe + strong, with Govern Wisely, Govern Well to support the Consolidate Power option to probably bring it levels that Zao will let Moon visit us.,


I am no longer impressed.
 
[ ] Consolidate Power
Oh god so SO tempting. What's that you corrupt criminally foolish officials? You want to back my political opponents? THEN TASTE THE LIMIT BREAK OF THE MOST FEARED GOD-KING IN ALL CREATION! MWAHAHAHHAHAAH

Don't know if I'll actually go for it though. Plus, the evil laughter may be a bit over the top, but it kinda makes the gloat.
Also really tempting. Though alienation is not a fun time, MOAR POWER is always a thread favorite. I do have one caveat however:
Decreases loyalty of Uncle Pan, who disapproves heavily of Sorcerers.
The hell?! Uncle Knows Better than this! He realizes that MAGIC MUST DEFEAT MAGIC! How can we make Evil Spirits Begone if we don't have Sorcerous power to make them BE gone!?
 
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