[Exalted, ?] Most High

[Rihaku]

My reasons for choosing Vengeance over Parley are fairly simple. The XP is nice, but the choice in general has other factors at work as well. I will admit that they're mostly emotional rather than logical in nature though. I don't want Ulyssian the sort who'd screw over loyal subordinates for the sake of a tentative and somewhat objectionable alliance. I'm aware that it is significantly more complex than that, but that's what it boils down to for me. If things were more solid, or there was less potential blowback from allying with the Necromancer, I might support negotiation with him, but as things stand it seems like abrogating a principle (IC anyway given Ulyssian doesn't know that Seeds is peaceful etcetera) for the sake of power, and that's not something I really want to support?

Again, this is pretty much an emotional reaction though, not one really based in logic.

Click to shrink...

I wouldn't call Seeds peaceful. Merciful, possibly, depending on your definition.

And where are you getting this information? you don't know if he had held elite dragonbloods captive before. Also, I wasn't disparaging his skills but raising a possibility. Saying that he is not so far above them that it renders escape attempts on their part moot.

Click to shrink...

The DBs are extremely unlikely to retain enough body parts to mount a successful escape attempt, so don't worry about that! They can be discovered, but they're unlikely to escape.

She explicitly "took over" to deal with us, personally. We are a huge priority for her. And if the circle of immaculates she sent with us to take care of us disappear, then she will be very interested to know where they went. And if anyone can track them down, its the most powerful known living chosen of fate.

Click to shrink...

Chejob Kejak isn't looking for them, nor is the Fairest.

I don't have time for a point by point right now
but I gotta reply to this one. The setting so far has been absolutely lousy with sorcerers, especially demon summoning ones.
Heck as a mortal we used to hire them on a regular basis. And we keep on encountering NPCs that can do it.

Click to shrink...

That Seacrown, a naval metropolis, hosts at least one mercenary sorcerer is no surprise; that Ulyssian, being a Dynast, has enough money to hire him is also not surprising. That does not mean they are normally common, especially outside the Realm.

 

[mrttao]

Didn't QM say that if we ally with him we can't ally with the other 2? and both are stronger than us right now?

Chejob Kejak isn't looking for them, nor is the Fairest.

Click to shrink...

Chejob is missing and pressumed dead. is the fairest another name for Ayn whatshername (edit: Anys)?
When I said the leader of the bronze faction I meant the current defacto leader with chejob missing, the one who invented the DB martial arts/set up the plan with flame/currently assumed the position of the hesiah
And of course she isn't looking for them, she knows where they are because she assigned them to us. I am saying that if they mysteriously disappear she will look into it.

That Seacrown, a naval metropolis, hosts at least one mercenary sorcerer is no surprise; that Ulyssian, being a Dynast, has enough money to hire him is also not surprising. That does not mean they are normally common, especially outside the Realm.

Click to shrink...

IIRC it was mentioned that we hired sorcerers, plural. And aside from those, there is also pearl, our sister, that exalt we think is sister's reincarnation, and didn't moon learn sorcery too?

 

[Orm Embar]

Didn't QM say that if we ally with him we can't ally with the other 2? and both are stronger than us right now?

Click to shrink...

The Lily and the Thorns are weaker than us, and we also already have Nilul/Pearl/Zao as social specialists. The Seeds provides a unique skillset and has similar opinions regarding the state of Creation.

is the fairest another name for ayn whatshername? the one who invented the DB martial arts/set up the plan with flame/currently assumed the position of the hesiah?
And of course she isn't looking for them, she knows where they are because she assigned them to us. I am saying that if they mysteriously disappear she will look into it.

Click to shrink...

No, the Fairest was one of Odyssial's Sidereal cohorts in the First Age. Nobody knows where she is now. As for Anys searching for the shikari, they're being kept in a Shadowland and she's very busy. An investigation being launched is a far more likely outcome, but the shikari are going to disappear regardless of which option wins. Delegate keeps them alive, Parley has the Seeds kill them, and Vengeance leaves it to us to do the deed. The last option exposes us to more scrutiny.

 

[mrttao]

I just thought of a really really good reason to ally with him
If he can use this same revealing ability on Anys in a sufficiently public place we can expose the immaculate as the sham it is

 

[Anasurimbor]

I just thought of a really really good reason to ally with him
If he can use this same revealing ability on Anys in a sufficiently public place we can expose the immaculate as the sham it is

Click to shrink...

As we discussed earlier, that's easier said than done.

Alternatively, we can ally with Lily and just sword her to death.

 

[Rihaku]

When I said the leader of the bronze faction I meant the current defacto leader with chejob missing, the one who invented the DB martial arts/set up the plan with flame/currently assumed the position of the hesiah

Click to shrink...

You said "the most powerful known living chosen of fate," which Anys is not.

IIRC it was mentioned that we hired sorcerers, plural. And aside from those, there is also pearl, our sister, that exalt we think is sister's reincarnation, and didn't moon learn sorcery too?

Click to shrink...

Nio never learned Sorcery, neither did Moon. You hired one sorcerer against Jael Aust.

I just thought of a really really good reason to ally with him
If he can use this same revealing ability on Anys in a sufficiently public place we can expose the immaculate as the sham it is

Click to shrink...

Indeed, that would be a powerful upset to Anys! If you can manage it.

 

[Serous]

I don't care much about the XP.

As for saying Lily and Thorns are weaker than us, so is Poppy. Lily does have a decent chance of defeating us in combat, thought.

 

[Rihaku]

Almost every Solaroid is weaker than you by this point in a 1v1, so it doesn't mean much.

 

[Serous]

While trying EotuS against Anys is a good idea, actually getting doing so is another story. Getting a necromancer to the Realm is going to be kinda hard, and even if Anys comes here, unless Poppy stays in Luseng, he wont get to her in time.

Also, Poppy is not our servant. He has his own goals and motivations and is not going to simply do stuff for us, especially if it is going to inconvenience him.

 

[Orm Embar]

Also, Poppy is not our servant. He has his own goals and motivations and is not going to simply do stuff for us, especially if it is going to inconvenience him.

Click to shrink...

The same is true for every Exalt, though, and the Seeds is at least amenable to reason and sympathetic to our goals. We also happen to have a bargaining chip handy in the form of the Dragon-Blooded.

 

[Emerald Oracle]

Interesting bit of random information: I hadn't realized that Sad Ivory (or another Sidereal by that name and appearance) is actually a canon Exalt. I was looking through my Second Edition books last night, and she's one of the viewpoint characters in one of the chapter comics in the Sidereal Manual of Power. It was interesting re-reading the charms and looking at the thematics for what's in theme for a Solar vs a Sidereal.

In the comic there was no reference to the bronze faction (though she was pretty anti-solar/lunar in her thought process) and I couldn't find any stats for her in the book, but she fought and was almost killed by Lilith before getting seconded to Nara-O for a season or two. It was interesting to see.

 

[Anasurimbor]

With the vote count tied, it's more or less down to arguments. Vegeance voters, to what degree does the XP reward factor into your decision?

Click to shrink...

When I originally voted for vengeance, I did not weight the XP that heavily, but it was an important compensation for forgoing an immediately useful alliance and engaging in a dangerous but otherwise unnecessary combat.

Ultimately, the real question is whether we want Seeds for an ally or whether we would rather hold out for someone else, most likely Lily. Both have their pluses and minuses. While we don't know nearly as much about Lily, she seems to be a bit more conventionally heroic, or is at least perceived that way. Well, at the very least, her people appear to love her rather than fear her, even if they must still toil in their fields, bereft of the Necro-Economy. Still it would be annoying to kill Seeds only to discover in retrospect that we preferred him to Lily.

The Lily of the Valley, Dusk Caste. A seemingly compassionate (?) and kind-hearted lady who lives up to the deathknight appellation. Heart-stoppingly fair. Her chivalrous acts, exquisite allure, and protection of the defenseless have won her many admirers. However, in battle she is a brutal and unrelenting murderer who seems not to understand the concept of restraint. Paradoxically this has won her even more admirers, and though she discourages it fervently, she's even accrued a large following of worshipers. Extremely deadly in battle, her main weapons are the black iron gauntlet on her left hand and the filigree rapier in her right. The former she wields with agile grace; the latter, with brutal force, smashing heads and tearing torsos open with its delicate hilt and edge.

Click to shrink...

Amusingly, change a couple words and I would totally buy that she was a Solar.

 

[mrttao]

You said "the most powerful known living chosen of fate," which Anys is not.

Click to shrink...

So I did, I misspoke, I meant to say ""the most powerful known living chosen of fate in the bronze faction", while assuming chejob doesn't count as he is MIA and thus not known to be living

Indeed, that would be a powerful upset to Anys! If you can manage it.

Click to shrink...

I really really would love to manage it. I would say that this should be a major priority

 

[Orm Embar]

In the comic there was no reference to the bronze faction (though she was pretty anti-solar/lunar in her thought process) and I couldn't find any stats for her in the book, but she fought and was almost killed by Lilith before getting seconded to Nara-O for a season or two. It was interesting to see.

Click to shrink...

Ivory has stats on pg. 338 of the 2E core-book, though they may not be precisely accurate in this incarnation of Creation. She's Essence 4, with some pretty impressive abilities and virtues. I thought it was a nice touch when she mentioned her Celestial Manse in the Odyssey, given that she's listed as having one in her background. Shame she's been neglected thus far. Isn't it Sad, Ivory?

 

[mrttao]

In the comic

Click to shrink...

what comic?

 

[Orm Embar]

what comic?

Click to shrink...

There's a comic featuring Ahn-Aru on pg. 91 of the 2E Sidereal splatbook.

 

[Orm Embar]

Ultimately, the real question is whether we want Seeds for an ally or whether we would rather hold out for someone else, most likely Lily. Both have their pluses and minuses. While we don't know nearly as much about Lily, she seems to be a bit more conventionally heroic, or is at least perceived that way.

Click to shrink...

'Perceived' being the operative word; she also has a huge suite of Charms to influence perception and inspire worship. The Lily's skillset overlaps with our on the 'swording things to death' front, and we have Nilul for social stuff, who has the added benefit of being judicious enough in the use of her powers not to accidentally mindrape people into zealous fanatics. I find that far more distasteful that the reasoned and pragmatic approach of the Seeds, especially when combined with his attempts to minimize suffering.

 

[Serous]

I am not interested in giving the DB to Poppy even if we ally with him. Leaving enemies behind us is never a good idea, no matter how secure we think it is. Imprisonment is merely training time for Larceny charms, after all. If they are alive, it also means that it is possible for someone to rescue them or to contact them. If that happens, it is going to cause a big issue for us.Even if DB are weaker than Celestials, they are still Exalts, and simply assuming that they would quietly do as you wish is foolish.

Furthermore, with his power, if he truly wanted to, he could have gotten his hands on a couple DB. While getting 7, and all of all 5 aspects might be harder, if he truly needed to, he could have done so if his research required it. Giving the DB to him is more along the lines of us wanting the research than him wanting to research DB.

In addition, sparing the lives of the DB is because we to convert them. If they cant be converted, then we might as well kill them. Also, even if they are dead, its not like the necromancer cant do experiments.

 

[Orm Embar]

I am not interested in giving the DB to Poppy even if we ally with him. Leaving enemies behind us is never a good idea, no matter how secure we think it is. Imprisonment is merely training time for Larceny charms, after all. If they are alive, it also means that it is possible for someone to rescue them or to contact them. If that happens, it is going to cause a big issue for us.Even if DB are weaker than Celestials, they are still Exalts, and simply assuming that they would quietly do as you wish is foolish.

Click to shrink...

We have word of Rihaku that they're not an escape risk. They'll be dismembered and probably mote-tapped, at the very least.

In addition, sparing the lives of the DB is because we to convert them. If they cant be converted, then we might as well kill them. Also, even if they are dead, its not like the necromancer cant do experiments.

Click to shrink...

Exaltations depart with death; he can't study the flows of essence and other stuff of that nature if they're dead.

 

[mrttao]

stuff

Click to shrink...

While I mostly agree, I am still tempted to at least try to turn them to our side.

 

[Windlass]

I don't get the appeal of chasing after the Lily when we've got a perfectly good dude right here who's willing to break bread with us. Isn't she supposed to be unpredictable and mindrape-y?

Whatcha gonna do about those operatives, if Vengeance wins? They've seen the Caste Mark and we don't have access to persuasion effects. Kill 'em? Then why choose Vengeance at all?

 

[Serous]

'Perceived' being the operative word; she also has a huge suite of Charms to influence perception and inspire worship. The Lily's skillset overlaps with our on the 'swording things to death' front, and we have Nilul for social stuff, who has the added benefit of being judicious enough in the use of her powers not to accidentally mindrape people into zealous fanatics. I find that far more distasteful that the reasoned and pragmatic approach of the Seeds, especially when combined with his attempts to minimize suffering.

Click to shrink...

Swording people to death is a perfectly acceptable method of resolving problems, just look at us and the number of problems we solved with it. Furthermore, with higher social stats, it means that it would be far easier for us to make Luseng accept an alliance with either Lily or Thr

In addition, without this interlude, I seriously doubt that many people would want to ally with Poppy. The first that Uly saw when he entered Poppy's lair was described as horrors. He also revealed Uly to the DB using the Eye, neither of which makes a good impression. If he wanted to parley, opening up with that move is not going to help. The only reason we even have a somewhat positive impression of him is because of that interlude, which Uly does not know about.
In fact, it might be better for him to simply die, as the Eye is quite dangerous to ourselves. Even if we become allies, if he ever decides to betray or backstab us, he can simply Eye us in a public place and do so. There is nothing that guarantees that he would be a trustworthy ally, after all. It would be safer to kill him and ensure that he cannot use the Eye on us again.

Furthermore, its entirely possible that the interlude suffers from an unreliable narrator. It is Poppy's own thoughts about the situation and his actions, after all. Of course he would consider what he did reasonable, pragmatic and justified. If we get an interlude with Ragnar or Anys about their own actions, they too would seem pragmatic and reasonable. Any details that would have made their actions wrong would have been glossed over or forgotten in their recollections

 

[Diller]

We did get an interlude from Anys POV and she outright acknowledged that Kejak would freakout at what she is doing because it jeopardizes everything the Bronze Faction has worked for with the Dragonblooded. Also she said that she thought Zao was a fool to ally with a Solar to save Creation because " there are worse dates than destruction."as she put it.

She litterally would prefer having Creation destroyed over having the Solars back.

 

[Orm Embar]

Swording people to death is a perfectly acceptable method of resolving problems, just look at us and the number of problems we solved with it. Furthermore, with higher social stats, it means that it would be far easier for us to make Luseng accept an alliance with either Lily or Thr

Click to shrink...

I don't think a public alliance is in the cards, honestly. Talomar hates the Lily, supernatural charisma or no, because she's butchered his comrades, Exalted and mortal alike. The Thorns was previously said to be an unlikely ally for us. Any alliance we make here is going to have to be covert by necessity, which the Lily is absolutely terrible at; the Seeds at least grasps the concept of subtlety. All we need to do is have him fake his own death; we have the leverage for that in the form of the implicit threat of Ambition's edge and the carrot of Dragon-Blooded test subjects.

In addition, without this interlude, I seriously doubt that many people would want to ally with Poppy. The first that Uly saw when he entered Poppy's lair was described as horrors. He also revealed Uly to the DB using the Eye, neither of which makes a good impression. If he wanted to parley, opening up with that move is not going to help. The only reason we even have a somewhat positive impression of him is because of that interlude, which Uly does not know about.

Click to shrink...

He had to do that to even have a chance at parleying, because there was no way we were going to blow our very beneficial cover as a Fire Aspect otherwise. It was that or be unceremoniously exterminated; can you blame him for acting as he did?

In fact, it might be better for him to simply die, as the Eye is quite dangerous to ourselves. Even if we become allies, if he ever decides to betray or backstab us, he can simply Eye us in a public place and do so. There is nothing that guarantees that he would be a trustworthy ally, after all. It would be safer to kill him and ensure that he cannot use the Eye on us again.

Click to shrink...

There's nothing that guarantees he'll betray us, either. I think the thread generally treats Ulyssian's comrades very fairly, and living with the assumption that we cannot forge any kind of lasting alliance because our partners have dangerous and unique capabilities is unproductive, particularly when there's common ideological ground. We made a friend of Nilul (against my better judgment), which was a far more risky affair. Rather than focusing on how he could screw us over, think of the potential uses that the Eye could have.

 

[Diller]

Don't even see why this is a problem when we went and negotiated with Ayala and Fel Ling when we didn't know anything about them; our friend Nilul wanting to bug out, us personally revealing ourselves to them which could've ended badly if they didn't negotiate with us en you consider we just killed Polemgaos so killing more of the contestants after we forfeited would look especially bad for us even flog they didn't out us and Fei Ling had just been talking about our assassination. Here we actually have OOC knowledge of Seeds and he is approaching us not the other way around.

Plus part of the reasoning for allying with the Infernals was to get infomation about Hell's plans and this is an opportunity to do the same about the Underworld.

To say nothing of how potentially having another Solaroid who has skills we don't is a very good investment.