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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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I gotta say, guys, I'm really surprised you would go Full Red Option so strongly here. You're getting potential access to a Celestial Circle Working, and you'd turn that down for what? A Limit Break you've already put off using Stress reduction?
 
Alectai said:
The problem is that she looks tailor made as a weapon to get Odyssial to hesitate. A weapon to get The Most High to pause for a fraction of a second.

There are two ironclad laws of Exalted. "You cannot raise the dead", and "You cannot turn back time". Nio's existence violates both, and even Odyssial couldn't bend the first rule until he was at the height of his power and Greatness--and even then, he didn't so much "Raise the dead" as he did ensure continuity of memory, which isn't really the same thing. Nio existing and having reincarnated would have to full out break one of those rules.

Furthermore, "My past incarnation was quite afraid of you!" She wasn't in our inner circle then, of the people who Odyssial would move heaven and earth to support. She's smart, even brilliant, but the fact that she seems to trigger all of Odyssial's hangups sort of suggests that she's either using some Sorcererous Working (Or Control Spell), to have her presence remind someone of their greatest failure (Which, in Odyssial's case, was almost certainly letting Nio die), which is well in the range of the Celestial Circle--or Ayala was tailor made to cause a reincarnated Odyssial to hesitate.
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Well, past to future time travel is explicitly possible, it's just future to past that isn't. Ripping Nio's soul from her body and introducing it into the cycle with Lethe-immunity at a later date is only single-layer impossible.

Cavalier said:
She is an Infernal Exalted Sorcerer of immense talent, with access to all the histories and knowledge of the structure of the universe held within the libraries of the Yozis. Guessing "gee Odyssial must have intimidated Lethe" is simply a very good guess on her part, informed by her knowledge of how death and reincarnation work and Odyssial's First Age history.
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Yes, Odyssial's hatred for Lethos was legendary, as well as the surpassing thoroughness with which he dismantled it.
 
Rihaku said:
I gotta say, guys, I'm really surprised you would go Full Red Option so strongly here. You're getting potential access to a Celestial Circle Working, and you'd turn that down for what? A Limit Break you've already put off using Stress reduction?
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You'll note most of the alarm is at the complexity of the term "Reincarnation" when applied to a being with three different souls.

Well and chucklefucks voting for the lulz. There are always those.
 
I edited my previous post a bit more as thoughts came to me.

Basically, the thing that really keyed me off to Shenanagans is that Odyssial didn't really take the forefront after being reminded of Nio until Ayala took over the discussion. Then it happened pretty much instantly, in the very next paragraph.

Like, this was the kind of thing he should have noticed beforehand, not just when Ayala put herself in the center of attention.

I'm not willing to Limit Break, because they're still useful, but I'm not closing my eyes to the potential of shenanagans either.
 
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Could someone with enough knowledge be able to make a soul that would be similar upon each reincarnation and or make an exalted shard carry specific traits to make it's bearer act and feel a certain way?

I mean, even if the original Nio couldn't last there's alot of players with alot of power who might want to have a pull on Ody via his sister. I mean, even Ody set it up so people he knew would reincarnate around him.
 
I couldn't care less about Alaya possibly being Nio's reincarnation, full stop. It just doesn't appreciably matter.

Doesn't mean that limit breaking is necessarily the best pick, but that reincarnation angle just isn't going to enter into things.
 
Well, I think we should probably take a concession so that we can get a trade of services and build up a relationship with them. Prophet should be comparable to CCS working in value.
 
Mnemon Ayala has Nio's hun soul. Assuming there is no trick. That's it. Entirely possible that Odyssial's hun soul, deprived of an opportunity to Exalt, was say Nellens. The hun soul is the seat of thought and mannerisms, but is washed thoroughly by Lethe. Odyssial bullied Lethe into not doing that for his hun soul, or for Pearl's, and likely Lealope and other allies. But he couldn't access the memories left to his hun soul until he Exalted, because his mind would have been flat out destroyed before he had a Solar Exaltation to support it.

Granted, it's also his former Exaltation because of bullying Lytek, I expect.

Ayala clearly does not have Nio's memories or at least hasn't accessed him. Her memories of Odyssial are in the First Age, not the Time of Glory, and have a context of "Fear" one would not expect from Nio.
 
Alectai said:
I edited my previous post a bit more as thoughts came to me.

Basically, the thing that really keyed me off to Shenanagans is that Odyssial didn't really take the forefront after being reminded of Nio until Ayala took over the discussion. Then it happened pretty much instantly, in the very next paragraph.

Like, this was the kind of thing he should have noticed beforehand, not just when Ayala put herself in the center of attention.

I'm not willing to Limit Break, because they're still useful, but I'm not closing my eyes to the potential of shenanagans either.
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Possible, but another explanation is simply that Nio / Ayala didn't express herself very much beforehand - previously, he'd only seen her fight Taldrim, which is not a situation he saw Nio in, and talk briefly. It wasn't until she prepared to cast sorcery that he was reminded of her, by her quirks when creating talismans and performing rites.

Dream Logic said:
Could someone with enough knowledge be able to make a soul that would be similar upon each reincarnation and or make an exalted shard carry specific traits to make it's bearer act and feel a certain way?

I mean, even if the original Nio couldn't last there's alot of players with alot of power who might want to have a pull on Ody via his sister. I mean, even Ody set it up so people he knew would reincarnate around him.
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People did know how much he cared about his sister, but he rarely talked about what she was actually like... to get it that accurately, would be quite a feat.
 
[X] Negotiations - Because Nilul rolled almost twice as many successes as Ayala, negotiations will go in you favor. You may request a total of two concessions in the contract, and may make a concession in exchange for one more. By default, the contract already includes a Nilul-sanctified oath between the parties not to reveal each other's true natures and identities to anyone else.
-[X] Concession B: You will be able to tell select people who you trust (Zao, Pearl, Moon) about the Infernals.
-[X] Concession S: Ayala will agree to perform one Sorcerous Working for you, at a cost. Terrestrial Workings of Ambition 2 or less can be performed for Resources 3, you provide any needed materials. Celestial Workings of Ambition 2 or less can be performed for Resources 4, with the same conditions.
Rihaku said:
"I'm sure you'll do just fine," Nilul exclaimed, voice wavering, like one might expect a worried mother's to, on the day that her son first went to school - if that son were a beloved and promising Exalt, rather than a useless mortal.
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I think Uly is still a tad salty about this.
 
Cavalier said:
Mnemon Ayala has Nio's hun soul. Assuming there is no trick. That's it. Entirely possible that Odyssial's hun soul, deprived of an opportunity to Exalt, was say Nellens. The hun soul is the seat of thought and mannerisms, but is washed thoroughly by Lethe. Odyssial bullied Lethe into not doing that for his hun soul, or for Pearl's, and likely Lealope and other allies. But he couldn't access the memories left to his hun soul until he Exalted, because his mind would have been flat out destroyed before he had a Solar Exaltation to support it.

Granted, it's also his former Exaltation because of bullying Lytek, I expect.

Ayala clearly does not have Nio's memories or at least hasn't accessed him. Her memories of Odyssial are in the First Age, not the Time of Glory, and have a context of "Fear" one would not expect from Nio.
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Correct. The hun is the seat of consciousness, though, so in some important respect she would be her. Anyway guys, you could get a Celestial Circle Working for just money. This is a really big deal! You could get a potent, but narrow buff, or influence some area of Creation in a large way, or have her upgrade / create an entity, or undo enemy Workings, whatever. Not to mention that Fei Ling is a mid-high tier Solaroid combatant you would be able to hire for a critical engagement - like, say, fighting Anys Syn or whoever damaged Ivory.
Serous said:
Well, I think we should probably take a concession so that we can get a trade of services and build up a relationship with them. Prophet should be comparable to CCS working in value.
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Prophet is more like psuedo-spammable large-area Sidereal Astrology in function, though it works by exploiting foreknowledge rather than altering probabilities.
 
[X] Not Good Enough [Limit Break]

I don't care about this reincarnation stuff (and actively dislike it), want Auala dead, and want to see what Uly's Limit Break looks like.

Negotiation may have stolen our advantages, but I don't like these characters so they should die.
 
Rihaku said:
Correct. The hun is the seat of consciousness, though, so in some important respect she would be her. Anyway guys, you could get a Celestial Circle Working for just money. This is a really big deal! You could get a potent, but narrow buff, or influence some area of Creation in a large way, or have her upgrade / create an entity, or undo enemy Workings, whatever. Not to mention that Fei Ling is a mid-high tier Solaroid combatant you would be able to hire for a critical engagement - like, say, fighting Anys Syn or whoever damaged Ivory.


Prophet is more like psuedo-spammable large-area Sidereal Astrology in function, though it works by exploiting foreknowledge rather than altering probabilities.
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True, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful, isn't it?
 
Huh, can Prophet be used to ensure that Ivory, when healed, is able to get into Yu-Shan sans problems and allow her to get Ulyssian and co some fortuitous astrological buffs? Or would the Prophecy have to be general enough to benefit other sidereals as well?
 
... Who the hell was her prior reincarnation? The Solar one.
Rihaku said:
"I'm sure you'll do just fine," Nilul exclaimed, voice wavering, like one might expect a worried mother's to, on the day that her son first went to school - if that son were a beloved and promising Exalt, rather than a useless mortal.
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So, you know, Uly's seen plays of such things, maybe.
Odyssial opened his mouth to cut short that thought. "Mnemon Ayala. Answer very carefully. You remember the First Age, to what degree?"
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I like the way you switch between Odyssial and Ulyssian. For all they are one and the same, it feels very purposeful.



[X] Negotiations
-[X] Concession Write-in: Info dump. The Yozi and the Neverborn, Deathlord plots and the current Infernal agendas (including what Ayala and Ling hope to accomplish here), to the best of Ayala and Ling's knowledge.
All grist for the mill of the Strategos's plans.
-[X] Concession B: You will be able to tell select people who you trust (Zao, Pearl, Moon) about the Infernals.
This is pretty damn crucial. Even the Lord Strategos may not be able to change their plans to account for Infernals perfectly, not the way Zao could.

I don't know anything about sorcerous workings, and I can't think of any one Exalt that we desperately need dead. Save possibly Anys Syn, but I have no idea what that would do to the Immaculate Order and the Realm entire, to lose the one holding all the strings.
 
Dark Lord Bob said:
[X] Not Good Enough [Limit Break]

I don't care about this reincarnation stuff (and actively dislike it), want Auala dead, and want to see what Uly's Limit Break looks like.

Negotiation may have stolen our advantages, but I don't like these characters so they should die.
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I'm not sure how far that will get you on arguments, though!

Alectai said:
True, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful, isn't it?
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It's incredibly powerful, I was just addressing Serous' point on whether it'd be worth a Celestial Circle Working. Though it would depend on what you'd use it on, probably 2-4 castings would equal a CCW for overall value. The main bottlenecks there are time (2 to 4 full days committed) and the authoritative sources required.

Of course, within its area of focus (large-ranging organizational projects), Po17C is perhaps stronger than a CCW, but for personal-scale purposes, it's not that great. At best you can level a huge number of circumstantial penalties or accrue similar bonuses, but those rarely eclipse even an Excellency in impact. It's getting to level those penalties / bonuses on thousands or tens of thousands of people at once, that gives it its impact.
 
[X] Negotiations
-[X] Concession B: You will be able to tell select people who you trust (Zao, Pearl, Moon) about the Infernals.
-[X] Concession S: Ayala will agree to perform one Sorcerous Working for you, at a cost. Terrestrial Workings of Ambition 2 or less can be performed for Resources 3, you provide any needed materials. Celestial Workings of Ambition 2 or less can be performed for Resources 4, with the same conditions.
-[X] Reciprocal exchange of services: Assistance with assassinations on a one-to-one, unique services (Prophet of Seventeen Cycles/Sorcery), intelligence on threats to Creation.
 
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Alectai said:
There are two ironclad laws of Exalted. "You cannot raise the dead", and "You cannot turn back time". Nio's existence violates both, and even Odyssial couldn't bend the first rule until he was at the height of his power and Greatness--and even then, he didn't so much "Raise the dead" as he did ensure continuity of memory, which isn't really the same thing. Nio existing and having reincarnated would have to full out break one of those rules.
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On the other hand:
Those rules (or at least the time one) were made during the course of the war, added in to the system due to how chaotic they made things.

Ody might very well have done the impossible to save his sister.
 
Would it be possible to just trade off services in-kind? Like, if we want Fei Ling to help us kill Anys Syn, and we in turn help them kill someone?

Also tempted by the Info Dump, or maybe a more reciprocal trading of information instead. And the chance to use Ulyssian's Predictionism or other Charms to pay off might be worth some bartering options as well.

Anyway, if we play the long game, build up trust, and wait for the Yozis to inevitably be their own worst enemies we can still lure them over to our side. Ayala possibly having Nio's hun soul is still an intriguing development and, let's face it, very personal interest for Ulyssian. We should part on amicable terms, remind them just how terrible an idea letting the Yozis out would be and of the inevitable difficulties working for alien titans, and offer sanctuary if they wind up needing it later.
 
Guile said:
So, you know, Uly's seen plays of such things, maybe.
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He's read books! And seen plays, but not so many.

Guile said:
I like the way you switch between Odyssial and Ulyssian. For all they are one and the same, it feels very purposeful.
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Mmhm. Remember who Ambition serves.

Guile said:
-[X] Concession Write-in: Info dump. The Yozi and the Neverborn, Deathlord plots and the current Infernal agendas (including what Ayala and Ling hope to accomplish here), to the best of Ayala and Ling's knowledge.
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They won't be able to give you that in detail, not to the standards of a Prophecy, unless you focus it on one specific aspect - the one they're specifically working on. And that infodump would take a little while. But Prophecy-quality material is quite valuable on its own, for the sheer expident of it allowing you to cast Prophecy. Even half a handful of those can change the fates of armies, nations, Directions - and through them, the world.
 
Rihaku said:
It is, isn't it? Unfortunately you don't have enough memories to confirm or deny... if Pearl could be returned, though, who's to say that Nio couldn't be? The memories were attached to the Exaltation, and Nio never Exalted, so...

But yes, it could just be a trick, a Ebon Dragon Charm or Sorcerous Working or both. But would you guys really take down Nio, if there's even the slightest chance? She literally was the reason Odyssial Exalted! She saved his life, not once, but twice, while still a little kid! He failed to protect her before!
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Given that Nio died before the Neverborn clogged up the reincarnation drain shouldn't her soul have been wiped more or less instantaneously? Meaning that even if it was the same soul it would have been scrubbed extremely thoroughly and then subjected to a couple millennia of the regular Exalted reincarnation shenanigans, any similarities would be vestigial at best even before the lifetime of Ayala started influencing her personality.
 
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Rihaku said:
I gotta say, guys, I'm really surprised you would go Full Red Option so strongly here. You're getting potential access to a Celestial Circle Working, and you'd turn that down for what? A Limit Break you've already put off using Stress reduction?
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I'm kind of baffled too. This is like Ivory being Pearl's reincarnation, and willing to join Zao, but we Limit Break and kill her because how can you take the chance? She's been working with the Bronze Faction for like five thousand years!

Ayala is literally giving us her Nilul-enforced vow, plus two free benefits, no strings attached. And we're going to instead kill her because... well, fuck Infernals, I guess?
Alectai said:
The problem is that she looks tailor made as a weapon to get Odyssial to hesitate. A weapon to get The Most High to pause for a fraction of a second.
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For that to happen, they would have to know Odyssial had perfectly reincarnated, and was going to be here, and that he would talk Nilul into abandoning her modus operandi up to this point, and nonlethally confront the Infernals. If that were possible, then we might as well throw in the towel, game over, Yozi 1-Realm 0.
There are two ironclad laws of Exalted. "You cannot raise the dead", and "You cannot turn back time". Nio's existence violates both, and even Odyssial couldn't bend the first rule until he was at the height of his power and Greatness--and even then, he didn't so much "Raise the dead" as he did ensure continuity of memory, which isn't really the same thing. Nio existing and having reincarnated would have to full out break one of those rules.
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Odyssial did a lot of things. Including tearing off the Unconquered Sun's arm and breaking his unbreakable shit.
 
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