[Exalted, ?] Most High

The logic in favour of starting the war early is infuriating.

Zao wouldn't have accomplished much, if anything yet, in favour of preparing for it; it was a bare handful of updates ago. We haven't even spoken to House Sesus yet, haven't secured the support of other Houses yet, etc. You don't start wars when you're on an even footing with your opponents militarily unless you have no choice.

Once we've started securing our alliances, sure. Right now? All we're doing is picking a fight that Zao had counted on not happening for a while before we've even managed to do any work ourselves recruiting allies, and counting on it all going perfectly for... no adequately explained reason.
 
The logic in favour of starting the war early is infuriating.

Zao wouldn't have accomplished much, if anything yet, in favour of preparing for it; it was a bare handful of updates ago. We haven't even spoken to House Sesus yet, haven't secured the support of other Houses yet, etc. You don't start wars when you're on an even footing with your opponents militarily unless you have no choice.

Once we've started securing our alliances, sure. Right now? All we're doing is picking a fight that Zao had counted on not happening for a while before we've even managed to do any work ourselves recruiting allies, and counting on it all going perfectly for... no adequately explained reason.

No, the reasons have been explained over and over again; and Rihaku has flat out stated that this is the most advantageous time to start the Civil War that we are going to see for a long time, and not without massive preparation. The argument that "this is a bad time to start the war" is simply not correct.

Actual arguments might include Ulyssian being genuinely remorseful and willing to forgo the opportunity because it is a desirable characterization, or that we don't want to take the moral responsibility for unleashing the war even if it is inevitable, or that we would prefer to have a narrative arc about heading off the war, or even that we'd prefer to head off to the Threshold rather than continue being involved in Dynastic affairs. But "this is a terrible time to start the war" is a complete nonstarter because it is wrong.
 
No, the reasons have been explained over and over again; and Rihaku has flat out stated that this is the most advantageous time to start the Civil War that we are going to see for a long time, and not without massive preparation. The argument that "this is a bad time to start the war" is simply not correct.

Citation needed here. Because this is absolutely unintuitive; see your lack of point against my 'Zao obviously wasn't planning on starting it soon and we've done no work in that respect either'.
 
Citation needed here. Because this is absolutely unintuitive; see your lack of point against my 'Zao obviously wasn't planning on starting it soon and we've done no work in that respect either'.
From what I understand the idea is that everyone else is unprepared too, and Zao hasn't spent strength defending creation in the meanwhile, so start it now to take advantage of that.

The assumption being that the power Zao spends and the power the various Houses would amass is more than the power we will gain in the meantime, so don't delay.
 
From what I understand the idea is that everyone else is unprepared too, and Zao hasn't spent strength defending creation in the meanwhile, so start it now to take advantage of that.

The assumption being that the power Zao spends and the power the various Houses would amass is more than the power we will gain in the meantime, so don't delay.

I really don't get that. Polemgaos' interlude shows his own House, at least, is spending it's strength defending Creation, and it seems odd to think that Ulyssian can't gain as much as he needs to for a decisive advantage.
 
Citation needed here. Because this is absolutely unintuitive; see your lack of point against my 'Zao obviously wasn't planning on starting it soon and we've done no work in that respect either'.

I spent 3,250 words laying out the rationale in a write-in, and thousands more since. If you can't bother reading the thread before repeating the same argument that has been made dozens of times before, I'm not going to repeat myself.
 
@Rihaku , can the current Build-vote wait until we know where we're going with the war?
Strategos requires Solar charms, so it can really only be done by Uly. While sorcery is shiny, it would be easier to find sorcerers than it would be to find helpful solars.
Consider the following:

Odyssian Optimized Sorcery, Sorcery beyond Sorcery.
 
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I spent 3,250 words laying out the rationale in a write-in, and thousands more since. If you can't bother reading the thread before repeating the same argument that has been made dozens of times before, I'm not going to repeat myself.

I read it. I wasn't convinced, mate.

But good work on assuming that people who disagree with you just can't understand your perfect argument.
 
Oh right, haven't voted yet.

[X] The Strategos

Because if the vote to kick off the civil war does start soon, better to have this one than sorcerery, which we can hire other people for.
 
OK, so this Seventeen Cycle thing has come up a couple times, what does it actually do?

Also, I have found Cavalier's arguments to be cogent and his write-in and general reasoning has convinced me to change my vote from Guile's. I'm still a bit leery of the whole Heartlessness thing, I really do want to not go down that road if at all possible, but at this point war is coming. Barring extreme measures on the part of numerous actors there's going to be a war, likely a civil one mixed with a world one given the generally fractious nature of Creation. At this point Zao is in a relative position of Power and Rihaku has said that this if we the players are going to foment a civil war we're not going to get a better position for doing so without some Serious prep work.

[x] I meant to do that (via Cavalier)

As far as Sorcerer vs Strategos I just don't know. Both would be Extremely interesting and I hope to somehow magically get both once Ulyssian hits E5 even though that eventuality is about as likely as Her Redness reappearing from Hell in a blaze of doom-fire and bowing before Zao as her legitimate successor with no strings attached. While both have personal and general enhancements Sorcerer seems to be the Personal Power focused option and Strategos the strategic one. I think I'll wait and see before I vote as has been my wont of late.

And since I'm going full Cavalier what the hell.
[x] Counter-Infiltration
 
OK, so this Seventeen Cycle thing has come up a couple times, what does it actually do?
You study a bunch and then make a prediction which the world conspires to make true. In the book the example given was reviewing two millenia of weather records and then saying, "Mnemon's forces will not attack until Spring." If they do storms strike, elementals attack, their supply chain gets interrupted, and they get penalties on their War rolls. Though if their opponents attack before Spring the same happens to them, so you've got to be smart about it.
 
Well, I'll say I tried to mitigate the Heartlessness thing a bit by having Ulyssian actually be genuinely remorseful over not intending to kill Polemgaos, and even considering that it really wasn't fair to the old hero to die that way. Deliberately fanning the flames of the act was also about giving some meaning to an otherwise senseless outcome and lending a bit of dignity to Polemgaos' fall. It might not be apparent right away, but decades and even centuries later, the fall of Polemgaos would mark the end of the old era with the death of its greatest exemplar; and his "perverse smile" as he died gave Ulyssian an insight that he might have appreciated the irony of being a spark for revolution.
 
OK, so this Seventeen Cycle thing has come up a couple times, what does it actually do?

Also, I have found Cavalier's arguments to be cogent and his write-in and general reasoning has convinced me to change my vote from Guile's. I'm still a bit leery of the whole Heartlessness thing, I really do want to not go down that road if at all possible, but at this point war is coming. Barring extreme measures on the part of numerous actors there's going to be a war, likely a civil one mixed with a world one given the generally fractious nature of Creation. At this point Zao is in a relative position of Power and Rihaku has said that this if we the players are going to foment a civil war we're not going to get a better position for doing so without some Serious prep work.
War is coming... in like, a decade if we take the other option.

That is almost certainly beyond the scope of the quest, given we've spent all the time up to this point on a space of like 3 months.

Really, your vote should reflect whether you want to fight a succession war/no war.
 
War is coming... in like, a decade if we take the other option.

That is almost certainly beyond the scope of the quest, given we've spent all the time up to this point on a space of like 3 months.

Really, your vote should reflect whether you want to fight a succession war/no war.

I'm really ok with either option of that choice. I'd be interested if things continue on as they have been, and I'm interested in dealing with the ramifications of the Realm Civil War. I realize that the inevitable war is likely beyond the scope of the quest, but that's a meta consideration and from a meta standpoint I'm happy either way really. From the perspective of Ulyssian I can see him going either way as well, but prompting the war early so he can get it over with quickly while Zao is still in a position of strength seems quite in character.

Ten years on is something that he's planning for, and as per Rihaku this is a good place to make a start of the inevitable war. Though, that may be my meta awareness tainting my thought process...

Really, I just think Cavalier put a lot of good solid work into arguing his point, and I think such work is worth supporting. He even addressed what was my greatest concern about the option, which was the Heartlessness thing, and in an Effectiveness Bonused Write-in no less.

Honestly? I'd prefer to read about a civil war story than a satrapy story at this point. My first choice option sadly died the death of the Sail, and the winning options for what Ulyssian's going to do after School, while still fun, are somewhat less interesting to me than the Craziness that will ensue if he begins the Realm's Pyre with the Death of Cathak Polemgaos.
 
[x] Counter-Infiltration
[X] The Strategos

Updated vote for the strategos so get much closer to Wake the Sleeper which is going to be really powerful to use on Ambition.
 
Finding a reliable and trustworthy Celestial Circle Sorcerer is only marginally easier than finding a reliable and trustworthy Solar. Additionally, the utility of many spells, like Invulnerable Skin of Bronze, is completely personal. Other spells, like Infallible Messenger, offer enormous personal benefits when they are your control spell. Don't you want to send a message to Lealope and even see her?

Well, Lealope is warded against Infallible Messenger, but it certainly would work against less hardened targets, even an enemy officer in his siege tent, for example! Combine that with Unsurpassed Hearing, and you've got the Sorcerous equivalent of a spy satellite!

Mists of Eventide is also hilariously good, I'm thinking of nerfing it so that zombies under your control can't spend Willpower / essence unless their "players" decide to, because otherwise it's just retarded overpowered.

I think I'd be more willing to go with Sorcery if we aren't starting the war, and Strategist if we are. Sorcery really seems like a more long-term investment that radically alters the trajectory of Ulyssian's development. It's certainly incredibly useful for the utility powers, mind, and if operating by ourselves even more valuable. But if we've got to fight a war then being the unholy hybrid of Lu Bu and Zhuge Liang is really kind of important.

Well, you wouldn't be Lu Bu quite yet, nor would you be as horrifically capable as Kongming against his foes, but you would be an exceptionally well-rounded combatant, with Solar-tier power in direct combat, infiltration, assassination, investigation and strategy.

OK, so this Seventeen Cycle thing has come up a couple times, what does it actually do?

Also, I have found Cavalier's arguments to be cogent and his write-in and general reasoning has convinced me to change my vote from Guile's. I'm still a bit leery of the whole Heartlessness thing, I really do want to not go down that road if at all possible, but at this point war is coming. Barring extreme measures on the part of numerous actors there's going to be a war, likely a civil one mixed with a world one given the generally fractious nature of Creation. At this point Zao is in a relative position of Power and Rihaku has said that this if we the players are going to foment a civil war we're not going to get a better position for doing so without some Serious prep work.

[x] I meant to do that (via Cavalier)

As far as Sorcerer vs Strategos I just don't know. Both would be Extremely interesting and I hope to somehow magically get both once Ulyssian hits E5 even though that eventuality is about as likely as Her Redness reappearing from Hell in a blaze of doom-fire and bowing before Zao as her legitimate successor with no strings attached. While both have personal and general enhancements Sorcerer seems to be the Personal Power focused option and Strategos the strategic one. I think I'll wait and see before I vote as has been my wont of late.

And since I'm going full Cavalier what the hell.
[x] Counter-Infiltration

You study a bunch and then make a prediction which the world conspires to make true. In the book the example given was reviewing two millenia of weather records and then saying, "Mnemon's forces will not attack until Spring." If they do storms strike, elementals attack, their supply chain gets interrupted, and they get penalties on their War rolls. Though if their opponents attack before Spring the same happens to them, so you've got to be smart about it.

Well, it's not quite as all-purpose as that; Prophet of Seventeen Cycles interfaces with the project system, a mechanical artifact that describes the actions of large organizations. What it essentially does is allow you to create incentives and penalties from thin air; of course, you will stack advantages for yourself and your allies, and stack penalties on your enemies. Because it can be used every day, over time it can be even more powerful than God-King's Shrike; a realm ruled or advised by such a Solar will almost invariably prosper, under even the harshest conditions, as the Solar's strategic prescience manifests as a seemingly endless stream of serendipitous acts.

You can use it to benefit yourself on a personal scale to some degree, though, when interacting with large organizations; you just have to do it a bit creatively. For example, if you're trying to infiltrate Mnemon's forces, you might create a Prophecy that "Mnemon's army will be especially vulnerable to infiltration on the night of the 17th, due to the alignment of the stars and the oncoming full lunar eclipse." You do also need an authoritative / definitive source about the thing you're studying to make a prediction, and it must be at least tangentially associated to the thing you want to affect - the canonical example of altering war plans by studying the weapon in a region is a good benchmark.

@Rihaku
Can we design Evocations for Ambition, or is it solely for GM's use?

You may propose Evocations, though a high degree of familiarity with the system and the power level of Artifact 5 / N/A Evocations will likely be necessary to get anything passed. They're powerful, but not highly overpowered.
 
Put it this way; The Strategos makes you a wizard of sheer competence, whereas The Sorceror makes you a literal wizard. Also, there are only a handful of Celestial Circle Sorcerors in the entire world, maybe 6-7. Raksi is one. Ayala is one. I'm not sure if Ivory will be one; she might only be Terrestrial Circle. Lea may not even be one.
 
That DOES make the Sorcerer more attractive. Then again this is the Most High we're talking about, what are the odds we're going to run into at least 3 of those 6-7 he hasn't met yet anyway?
 
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