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[Exalted, ?] Most High

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Rihaku said:
What do you intend to do about the lost potential of his bloodline, though? His sister's not cut out for it! Imagine DB minions with Flame's bloodline (just as Anys did!)
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We better get Solar Circle Sorcery fast then. Create our own bloodlines.

Candesce said:
...

Please tell me you didn't intend for that to come off as badass.

Because if you were, you missed.
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If our aesthetics are that different I can kind of see why your reasoning comes off as insane.

Savonarola said:
Urgh... I'm torn between the write-in option and the meaning to do that. Against showing remorse, though, that just pisses away the best parts of Uly's nature: his unceasing will to prevail and uncompromising personality.
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I remember someone had a write-in to convince Nilul that said "This is the first time you've stopped seeking advantage." What is Uly's motivation to not seek advantage here? If you (not you Savonarola, rather a general comment) try and convince me that he's feeling sincere remorse for the death of someone in a fight I will laugh at you. This is the Realm; killing isn't some huge taboo that traumatizes people forever like in our world. Everyone is expected to get some killing done as basically a spring-break equivalent, and this was a tournament where Uly explicitly was risking death.
 
[x] "I meant to do that" - Of course. Perhaps this was why Zao sent you in the first place; he is "making his play," and the opening hand is all aces. What faction would dare defy Lung Feng Zao, who wields not only his formidable self, and the Admiralty, but a prodigy of such incalculable power as this!? May spark the Realm Civil War, but that was probably going to happen anyway, and at least this way it is from a position of strength, and on your own terms - sort of?

Shit happens. Carry on.
 
Savonarola said:
Urgh... I'm torn between the write-in option and the meaning to do that. Against showing remorse, though, that just pisses away the best parts of Uly's nature: his unceasing will to prevail and uncompromising personality.
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But he didn't intend to kill Polemgaos. Even Primordial War Odyssial would feel regret for killing someone he didn't intend to. Because they should not have died, unless he intended it. It was a mistake; learn from it. To learn, one must accept the consequences of one's mistakes, though not to the degree that they would undermine one's own interests.

Dark Lord Bob said:
Well, there is "[ ] Write-In - Write-ins benefit from a huge effectiveness bonus. However, note that the existing options are already pretty effective, for what their purposes are turned towards!"

Personally I highly favour "I meant to do that," but Guile's write-in is nearly as good while also being massively more palatable to the voters. I am greatly opposed to sincere remorse, and if we have to avoid that (not by making it intentional, as apparently people don't want that) by saying it was an accident instead of a mistake, I'm all for it.
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Well, I don't think you should avoid voting for an option just because you don't think it'll get other votes. You can always argue for it and, in the best case, get a compromise option that is closer to what you want, compared to settling.

Guile said:
That could happen, or we could gain more prestige. It's doubling down on gains we've already, uh... gained. We might falter, but I think the odds are good that we will continue to succeed gloriously. Polemgaos didn't live (heh) up to the hype, but he was still the enormous favorite of this tournament, and we defeated him handily. The fear of him will help our odds further.
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It is pretty likely that you won't beat everyone else as soundly as you beat Polemgaos; they've observed the fight and know your strategies now. Counter-play will be employed, as much as possible, and your skill is not much greater than every contestant's here. They all have Att 5 Ability 5 (Specialty Relevant); these are the creme de la creme, after all.
 
Not really a fan of the write-in. It comes across as misjudging our strength as opposed to misjudging whether he could take a hit. Given our skill, we should be very well aware of how strong we are.
 
Candesce said:
So's immediately declaiming responsibility.

Whining's less then impressive, no matter what you just did.
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You don't get it; for some of us Massive Remorse comes off as the most pathetic thing ever. It's whining extraordinarily, and basically saying "I'm so sad that in a battle against someone who was willing to kill me I accidentally stabbed him with my sword. This was a terrible mistake I regret immensely, so much so that I'm going to let my weeping stop me from seeking advantage, because I don't want to be Heartless. How could I kill someone (those devout Immaculates I killed before? Not technically people)?"

Guile's write-in comes off as "Oh, wow, I thought that guy was supposed to be immortal. I wouldn't have killed him if I'd known he wouldn't revive, but the act of killing people doesn't bother me." Basically, I view it as embracing:
Rihaku said:
But he didn't intend to kill Polemgaos. Even Primordial War Odyssial would feel regret for killing someone he didn't intend to. Because they should not have died, unless he intended it. It was a mistake; learn from it. To learn, one must accept the consequences of one's mistakes, though not to the degree that they would undermine one's own interests.
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Uly didn't intend to kill Polemgaos, but not out of any moral dithering, and now that it's done he can ruminate on how to avoid stuff like that once he takes advantage of the situation.

Well, I don't think you should avoid voting for an option just because you don't think it'll get other votes. You can always argue for it and, in the best case, get a compromise option that is closer to what you want, compared to settling.
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My main goal in this is not feeling remorse about killing Polemgaos. I care more about the character development than the practicals of this choice.
 
Dark Lord Bob said:
We better get Solar Circle Sorcery fast then. Create our own bloodlines.
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What need have we for bloodlines? Far more efficient (and timely, who has the patience to wait for bloodlines to grow?) to uplift our allies to the heights of prowess. Moon, with the power of an Elemental Dragon. Hero as well, possibly. Just think of the potential! We could make our own Perfect Circle with the power to replace Gaia's souls. We already plan to create a new Creation (or at least Odyssial did).
Dark Lord Bob said:
I remember someone had a write-in to convince Nilul that said "This is the first time you've stopped seeking advantage." What is Uly's motivation to not seek advantage here? If you (not you Savonarola, rather a general comment) try and convince me that he's feeling sincere remorse for the death of someone in a fight I will laugh at you. This is the Realm; killing isn't some huge taboo that traumatizes people forever like in our world. Everyone is expected to get some killing done as basically a spring-break equivalent, and this was a tournament where Uly explicitly was risking death.
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This. The cultural mores are vastly different and Ulyssian is insanely driven even among Exalts. Balking over something as simple as an accidental death? Please. It was a mistake; we can and will learn from it. But that does not require remorse, and being mired in grief actually impedes our development, both of physical powers and productive philosophies.
 
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Dark Lord Bob said:
Uly didn't intend to kill Polemgaos, but not out of any moral dithering, and now that it's done he can ruminate on how to avoid stuff like that once he takes advantage of the situation.
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Massive Remorse does take advantage, though. It minimizes your chances of being successfully prosecuted, protecting you even though you killed him accidentally. The fact is genuinely feel remorse for killing someone he didn't intend to only makes it more effective.
Savonarola said:
He's expressing the truth in a way that's beneficial to him, not whining.
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I don't see an issue with the write-in, though it is less intimidating than Meaning to and is less convincing that Massive Remorse + genuine feeling for trial, but given the huge lead Massive Remorse had, anyone who doesn't want to express Massive Remorse should probably work out a coalition to oppose it.
 
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Candesce said:
That line is weaseling.

It's acting from a position of weakness to a notably greater degree than Remorse, nevermind Intent.

It's simultaneously telling everyone here that we need their approval, and giving them reason to deny us it.
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Ahahaha, what? No, it's demonstrating that we have power beyond a need for their petty approval. Remorse means we're searching for their forgiveness, something which House Cathak will never ever give us, no matter how much of Ulyssian's ironclad conviction you squander in some futile search for redemption.
 
Orm Embar said:
This. The cultural mores are vastly different and Ulyssian is insanely driven even among Exalts. Balking over something as simple as an accidental death? Please. It was a mistake; we can and will learn from it.
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An event occurred which I did not intend. More importantly, it will have massive, possibly catastrophic consequences. I was surprised by the event. I caused the event.

That is like, a really, really bad outcome for Odyssial. If regret has any purchase on his heart, this would be an appropriate situation to feel it. It is the proper reinforcement from his motivational system, given the unacceptable outcome.
 
Savonarola said:
Remorse means we're searching for their forgiveness, something which House Cathak will never ever give us, no matter how much of Ulyssian's ironclad conviction you squander in some futile search for redemption.
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Er - I don't think the point is to actually get forgiveness, it's to put on a show for the public that makes it so Cathak can't try to use that line of attack.

Any remorse he actually feels is a separate issue, and is for entirely different reasons as per Rihaku's explanation.
 
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Van Ropen said:
Er - I don't think the point is to actually get forgiveness, it's to put on a show for the public that makes it so Cathak can't try to use that line of attack.
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Correct,

Characterization effects of that option: Ulyssian feels remorse
Action effect of that option: Ulyssian uses his genuine feeling by channeling it in his expressions to the public, minimizing the disruption to his daily life. Damage control.
 
Van Ropen said:
Er - I don't think the point is to actually get forgiveness, it's to put on a show for the public that makes it so Cathak can't try to use that line of attack.

Any remorse he actually feels is a separate issue, and is for entirely different reasons as per Rihaku's explanation.
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Well, that is Odyssial's interpretation, of how even H10 Odyssial has situations where he may feel regret. Whether Ulyssian feels regret due to that justification, or something more human, is up to you guys.
 
Rihaku said:
An event occurred which I did not intend. More importantly, it will have massive, possibly catastrophic consequences. I was surprised by the event. I caused the event.

That is like, a really, really bad outcome for Odyssial. If regret has any purchase on his heart, this would be an appropriate situation to feel it. It is the proper reinforcement from his motivational system, given the unacceptable outcome.
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But the "away from Heartlessness 10" implies that it isn't regret over failed goals, but over death. And I don't want Uly (you know, the prodigy in a warrior society) to be inclined to regretting killing combatants because of the sadness of death, as opposed to the sadness of lost goals.

Rihaku said:
Massive Remorse does take advantage, though. It minimizes your chances of being successfully prosecuted, protecting you even though you killed him accidentally. The fact is genuinely feel remorse for killing someone he didn't intend to only makes it more effective.
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It makes Ulyssian "guilty just to think about that." Ulyssian. Guilty about seeking advantage. That is such an extreme character change I don't understand how some people are even considering it.

As mentioned before I don't care at all about the practical results of this vote, only Uly's characterization.
 
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Dark Lord Bob said:
It makes Ulyssian "guilty just to think about that." Ulyssian. Guilty about seeking advantage. That is such an extreme character change I don't understand how some people are even considering it.
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Killing Polemgaos is not advantageous unless you intend to spark a massive conflict. And Ulyssian was not seeking that outcome. He did not seek advantage by desiring to kill Polemgaos, creating a plan, and executing it. If he had, there wouldn't be a vote on feeling guilty about it, unless something had occurred to trigger that remorse.

From Odyssial's POV:

What he intended was to not kill Polemgaos. What he did was to kill Polemgaos.

That is a problem.

That is not a behavior that ought to be reinforced.

Hence, negative emotions.
 
[X] "Don't worry, I struck you with the flat side of the- hm. Hmm."
[X] Counter-Infiltration

Fights like this are why I'm not really terrified of going into possible fights with the Infernals. I don't really get the mechanics of the fight beyond the absolute basics, but the narrative is "Epic master meets much less capable fighter, defeats in one/two strokes", even when Rihaku has said that this fight would be a tough one. This also isn't the equivalent of a nat 100 either, this is a moderately superior roll off that lets us win forever.
 
Savonarola said:
It's not an excuse, it's the fucking truth. He died because he couldn't withstand the full force of our power. That's the message we're sending.
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By announcing "It's not my fault, <a list of excuses>"?

You do recall the specific line that started this conversation, yes?

If you want to demonstrate that you're beyond the need for petty approval, own your actions. Mistakes or otherwise.
 
me.me.here said:
[X] "Don't worry, I struck you with the flat side of the- hm. Hmm."
[X] Counter-Infiltration

Fights like this are why I'm not really terrified of going into possible fights with the Infernals. I don't really get the mechanics of the fight beyond the absolute basics, but the narrative is "Epic master meets much less capable fighter, defeats in one/two strokes", even when Rihaku has said that this fight would be a tough one. This also isn't the equivalent of a nat 100 either, this is a moderately superior roll off that lets us win forever.
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Until you lose the rolloff, and have to scramble to avoid losing forever.
 
Rihaku said:
Killing Polemgaos is not advantageous unless you intend to spark a massive conflict. And Ulyssian was not seeking that outcome. He did not seek advantage by desiring to kill Polemgaos, creating a plan, and executing it. If he had, there wouldn't be a vote on feeling guilty about it, unless something had occurred to trigger that remorse.

From Odyssial's POV:

What he intended was to not kill Polemgaos. What he did was to kill Polemgaos.

That is a problem.

That is not a behavior that ought to be reinforced.

Hence, negative emotions.
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The "guilty just to think about it" was in the context of trying to seek advantage post-Polemgaos. The way the vote's written that line doesn't refer to feeling guilty for killing Polemgaos, but for trying to get something out of it afterwards. I don't think an Odyssial POV would go:
What he is doing: seeking to turn a bad situation to his advantage.
What is this: worthy of guilt.
 
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