[Exalted, ?] Most High
- Thread starter Rihaku
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- exalted (white wolf)
Connections is kinda terrible for us mostly because let's be honest here, even if do manage to become head of our dynastic house with them being the "warrior" house, we are hardly going to manage to play politics at the level needed to handle the rest of the houses. So, while there could be good gains there, they are for someone who's much better than we at social-fu.
Rihaku
The Internet
You could declare war and conquer 'em, see how many of their legions remain loyal in the face of overbearing Sesus brutality!
Don't underestimate our enemies. There are opportunity costs to not acting now, but there is also a serious risk of coming down with a bad case of dead if we do. Power and Security gives us... well, power and security. Exactly what it says on the tin. Training opportunities with the strongest Dragon-Blood in the world in a relatively safe environment, optimized and enhanced by Sidereal support. It lets us spend virtually all of our experience on combat Charms, and it does so efficiently. Our flash purchases up until now have taken an enormous toll on our pool of experience. If we get the red jade daiklave, we'll actually be able to burn things with time to invest in its Evocations. Not being able to set things on fire is the kind of weak point our ruse as a Fire Aspect absolutely cannot afford. It strengthens our ties with Ivory and Zao, who are our staunchest supporters in addition to people with access to career-ruining secrets, so keeping them in our camp and happy campers besides is a good thing. Not saying we're at risk of betrayal, but keeping your allies content and in the loop is hardly a bad thing.
Also, it's a daiklave. Usernames, you know you want to.
Also, it's a daiklave. Usernames, you know you want to.
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Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
[X] Swift Deployment.
[X]Do not give away Ambition
And since that choice will probably lose, in the event that it does I want to change my vote to:
[X] Power & Security.
[X]Do not give away Ambition
And since that choice will probably lose, in the event that it does I want to change my vote to:
[X] Power & Security.
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Rihaku
The Internet
Would your vote change if Ambition was kept?
[x] power and security
[x] keep the sword and lie
Just to make sure my vote got counted.
[x] keep the sword and lie
Just to make sure my vote got counted.
Hm. It's inefficient to master two swords with the time and experience available to us. Probably not, I'd just switch from favoring Connections as a secondary option to Swift Deployment. Connections is only really feasible if we can maintain the ruse in close proximity to numerous other Dragon-Blooded, and Swift Deployment works best with personal power to back it up.
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Emerald Oracle
Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force
- Location
- The Else
Well, the best argument I can think of to make for the Power and Security option is the one that Orm's made, that it IS Power and Security. Both of those are in short supply for anyone in Creation in this Age of Sorrows, let alone a newly exalted Solar in the heart of the Realm surrounded by Dragon-Blooded politics.
Of the three options on the table the one that seems to have the greatest immediate gain for the least overall costs seems, to me, to be Power and Security. It allows Ulyssian to train with Zao, gain his favor, manage the Moon situation easiest, and train himself the most efficiently. This route gives the most optimal use of XP as it allows for actual training time as opposed to the flash training that would be necessary in the other routes.
Swift Deployment is, as has been, high risk high reward for us, and that's just in the combat. While there is the opportunity to play to Ulyssian's strengths, at the same time there is significant risk that he will be cut down before he can actually develop them. It also has severe opportunity costs that the other two options don't. When the total focus on rooting out threats to creation personal development takes a serious backseat, as does developing the connections that we have gone out of our way to maintain as a Dynast.
Develop Connections allows for that development, but it has other issues. Primarily, it means Ulyssian will be focusing his development in a direction that is not especially optimal for his particular exaltation. He is a Dawn Caste Solar, one of the greatest warriors who have ever lived, and perforce developing himself in that direction is the most XP efficient. While gaining skill in the social arena and the contacts of a Dynast is not to be scorned, devoting all of Ulyssian's focus to it is perhaps not an optimal use of his time, as he won't be as able to go out and deal with those threats that only the reincarnation of Odyssial himself could if he does so.
Of the three options on the table the one that seems to have the greatest immediate gain for the least overall costs seems, to me, to be Power and Security. It allows Ulyssian to train with Zao, gain his favor, manage the Moon situation easiest, and train himself the most efficiently. This route gives the most optimal use of XP as it allows for actual training time as opposed to the flash training that would be necessary in the other routes.
Swift Deployment is, as has been, high risk high reward for us, and that's just in the combat. While there is the opportunity to play to Ulyssian's strengths, at the same time there is significant risk that he will be cut down before he can actually develop them. It also has severe opportunity costs that the other two options don't. When the total focus on rooting out threats to creation personal development takes a serious backseat, as does developing the connections that we have gone out of our way to maintain as a Dynast.
Develop Connections allows for that development, but it has other issues. Primarily, it means Ulyssian will be focusing his development in a direction that is not especially optimal for his particular exaltation. He is a Dawn Caste Solar, one of the greatest warriors who have ever lived, and perforce developing himself in that direction is the most XP efficient. While gaining skill in the social arena and the contacts of a Dynast is not to be scorned, devoting all of Ulyssian's focus to it is perhaps not an optimal use of his time, as he won't be as able to go out and deal with those threats that only the reincarnation of Odyssial himself could if he does so.
Rihaku
The Internet
By that do you mean that you value having a heat source so highly that you would spend on a non-Ambition sword even when you have Ambition?
No, I'd just avoid situations where our anima not burning things would be likely to come under scrutiny, in favor of options that capitalize on our increased personal power.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
What the heck are we going to do with the other four months of Power & Security, once we burn through our XP and have our classes on lockdown inside of two months?
Well, there are other things to do besides training, I suppose. The Accursed, training Saery's retinue to be Tiger Warriors, paying back the small mountain of favors we probably owe Nilul by now, helping Hero with his maths... learning how to use our Performance 1 to serenade Moon...
Well, there are other things to do besides training, I suppose. The Accursed, training Saery's retinue to be Tiger Warriors, paying back the small mountain of favors we probably owe Nilul by now, helping Hero with his maths... learning how to use our Performance 1 to serenade Moon...
I'm all kinds of uncomfortable with giving away Ambition, regardless of which option wins.
Sure, Moon could make great use of it for now, but we've been told multiple times that the persona that ultimately gets the most out of it is Odyssial/Ulyssian and that raising up others to Solar level has never been Ambition's greatest power.
It was an immensely useful one that Ody often took advantage of, but that was to a great degree because it only ever represented a fraction of Odyssial's strength and the same cannot be said for Uly.
Lending it to Moon will ultimately lead to a lot of wasted XP by both of them for when weapons need to be traded back, which is not really something we can afford with the way we've been avoiding XP grantng options, chosen to spend a lot of XP on keeping up the ruse and spending XP on plot stuff.
Letting Moon keep it entirely, means Uly ultimately lacks a signficant part his power in a world that already contains a Circle of Essence 4 Abyssals that will likely keep getting stronger at their own prodigious rate and numerous other threats of similar or even greater strength.
Another Solar Tier ally with Uly's drive is nice but it's ultimately somewhat questionable whether she'll be really keeping up with him after a couple of years and with the kind of opponents out there and it being impossible to ensure we'll always be able to fight together it's not certain whether we can afford not to concentrate our power.
Not to mention that the entire idea of setting up Moon as Shogun runs into the issue that while Zao has a lot of influence and respect, a lot of that is because of his personal prowess and actions, not because of the respect for his bloodline.
Even with her parentage reveiled, Moon wouldn't have a House and her bloodline makes it pretty much impossible for her to ever have one, so all she'll really bring into the political scene is herself, the respect she can command personally and being the child of the one and only Zao.
This however can be provided just as well by Uly himself, especially since he's already considered Zao's heir now anyways, as long as he keeps up the ruse, only he also brings his own family to the table and can be expected to actually produce offspring which makes him viable for a political marriage, and should his ruse be discovered odds are an associate as close to him as Moon will have to flee anyways, so it's not like having Moon be the figurehead would reduce the risk of trying to play the Dynastic game for the throne as an Anathema all that much.
In that regard there is honestly a lot more to be said for giving Ambition to Saery or even Nilul, if we could actually trust her not to run off with it, because their bloodlines and family actually give them weight in Dynastic society beyond the influence Zao himself will provide anyways and Ambition is going to do the heavy lifting in regards to personal power anyways.
Regardless of which option wins, there are serious advantages to keeping Ambition, either because we'll need every advantage we can get to survive the assassinations even if we don't combat optimize or because we'll be bunkering up in order to get as powerful as we can as quickly as possible so we can afford to start advancing our actual agenda and that obviously benefits from having the tools we need to actually become as powerful as we possibly can during that time.
Sure, Moon could make great use of it for now, but we've been told multiple times that the persona that ultimately gets the most out of it is Odyssial/Ulyssian and that raising up others to Solar level has never been Ambition's greatest power.
It was an immensely useful one that Ody often took advantage of, but that was to a great degree because it only ever represented a fraction of Odyssial's strength and the same cannot be said for Uly.
Lending it to Moon will ultimately lead to a lot of wasted XP by both of them for when weapons need to be traded back, which is not really something we can afford with the way we've been avoiding XP grantng options, chosen to spend a lot of XP on keeping up the ruse and spending XP on plot stuff.
Letting Moon keep it entirely, means Uly ultimately lacks a signficant part his power in a world that already contains a Circle of Essence 4 Abyssals that will likely keep getting stronger at their own prodigious rate and numerous other threats of similar or even greater strength.
Another Solar Tier ally with Uly's drive is nice but it's ultimately somewhat questionable whether she'll be really keeping up with him after a couple of years and with the kind of opponents out there and it being impossible to ensure we'll always be able to fight together it's not certain whether we can afford not to concentrate our power.
Not to mention that the entire idea of setting up Moon as Shogun runs into the issue that while Zao has a lot of influence and respect, a lot of that is because of his personal prowess and actions, not because of the respect for his bloodline.
Even with her parentage reveiled, Moon wouldn't have a House and her bloodline makes it pretty much impossible for her to ever have one, so all she'll really bring into the political scene is herself, the respect she can command personally and being the child of the one and only Zao.
This however can be provided just as well by Uly himself, especially since he's already considered Zao's heir now anyways, as long as he keeps up the ruse, only he also brings his own family to the table and can be expected to actually produce offspring which makes him viable for a political marriage, and should his ruse be discovered odds are an associate as close to him as Moon will have to flee anyways, so it's not like having Moon be the figurehead would reduce the risk of trying to play the Dynastic game for the throne as an Anathema all that much.
In that regard there is honestly a lot more to be said for giving Ambition to Saery or even Nilul, if we could actually trust her not to run off with it, because their bloodlines and family actually give them weight in Dynastic society beyond the influence Zao himself will provide anyways and Ambition is going to do the heavy lifting in regards to personal power anyways.
Regardless of which option wins, there are serious advantages to keeping Ambition, either because we'll need every advantage we can get to survive the assassinations even if we don't combat optimize or because we'll be bunkering up in order to get as powerful as we can as quickly as possible so we can afford to start advancing our actual agenda and that obviously benefits from having the tools we need to actually become as powerful as we possibly can during that time.
Vote tally:
##### 3.21
[X] Swift Deployment.
No. of votes: 12
Thomasfoolery, Alectai, Da Boyz, tripleofive, Anasurimbor, Vanguard_D, BSRK Aditya, drasky, inawarminister, TheOtherSandman, Tasoli, Brain_Caster
[X] Power Security.
No. of votes: 23
LordOfMurder, SirLagginton, ebolasos, Diller, Savonarola, Robotninja, me.me.here, Ridiculously Average Guy, Usernames, TMIoverload, Dark Lord Bob, Khaos, 1986ctcel, DOOMPOTATO, useofstrike32, Delwgun, meianmaru, Brekouh, Orm Embar, Brain_Caster, Tonaris, Emerald Oracle, Reckless_Sun
[X] Develop connections
No. of votes: 20
roffster, Guile, Xsi, Elero, Van Ropen, Mask, Cavalier, afterthought53, kinglugia, inventive alias, CharlBaal, veekie, Koden, Pipeman, The Nomad, sithmor, Ghost, Serous, CrawlingChaos74, trekbook
[x] Tell the truth
No. of votes: 4
Diller, Van Ropen, Vanathor, tripleofive
[x] Don't give up Ambition
No. of votes: 2
Diller, tripleofive
-[X] Focus on the immaculate order and the wild hunt to ideally allow for more celestials to operate in the realm
No. of votes: 1
roffster
[X] Tell the Truth and give the Sword
No. of votes: 11
Ridiculously Average Guy, CharlBaal, veekie, Koden, 1986ctcel, DOOMPOTATO, Ghost, meianmaru, SometimesMaybe, Orm Embar, Tonaris
[x] Power and Security
No. of votes: 2
[x] Tell the Truth and offer the sword
No. of votes: 1
Emerald Oracle
-[X] Give Moon Ambition
No. of votes: 1
Van Ropen
[X]Do not give away Ambition
No. of votes: 8
Usernames, afterthought53, Dark Lord Bob, kinglugia, CrawlingChaos74, BSRK Aditya, TheOtherSandman, Brain_Caster
-[X] Give Zao Ambition
No. of votes: 1
Vanathor
[X] don't give the sword.
No. of votes: 1
Serous
[X] Retain Ambition for ourself.
No. of votes: 1
inawarminister
[X] Retain the sword
No. of votes: 1
Brekouh
[x] keep the sword and lie
No. of votes: 1
Reckless_Sun
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Rihaku
The Internet
The 2 months thing is cramming + training, but it won't complete your cramming. You'll be studying for the full six months to finish a curriculum made for DBs that normally takes two to six years.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Well yes, the advantage of having multiple Celestial-tier fighters is that they can go do their own thing while we do ours.
But look on the bright side! We may be dead in six months and not have to worry about Moon's rate of growth!
If she does, it will all play into our hands at the best possible time, anyway.
Rihaku
The Internet
That is true. Odyssial himself is disguistingly unnecessary overkill for most threats short of a full Primordial Titan or rogue E10 Celestial Exalt, much less Odyssial plus his N/A artifact of becoming even more awesome! You, however, are not nearly at that level yet. Death has not exterminated you, but it has diminished you, incomparably.
I will note that, although much ado has been made over the upper tier of Celestial-level threat, the vast majority of Solars are still far inferior to you in terms of supernatural and mundane might. And you will likely encounter some of those as well, even as your power and position attract truly potent foes.
Emerald Oracle
Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force
- Location
- The Else
Indeed, Nilul will rise to heights undreamt of, all shall love her and despair, she shall strike down her traitorous mother and false father, and then, when all of Creation lies at her feat as the great queen of all that is... We'll show up from nowhere and she'll job horribly. Great fun!
@Rihaku, two more or less relevant questions.
Given for ecxample stuff like Golrious Solar Saber's Molten Sun Blade, is there any chance the Solar Charmset or Ambitions Evocations will contain stuff that together with perhaps our disguise effects allwos us to fake being FIre Caste more efficiently or is Solar stuff in general too iconic or too well documented by the Immaculate Order for that?
Secondly, how much merit or disadvantage is there to giving Ambition to Moon largely for the drive to self-improvement it supplies and avoiding spending XP on Evocations that would be lost when it's returned to Uly?
If Uly spends the Solar XP he has to quickly get as many Evocations as he can afford before giving Ambition to Moon for the next months of cramming school subjects and spending normal XP, she could probably benefit from that drive alone and Uly could still recall the blade instantly should an occasion arise where he needs its prowess, even if we take Safety and Power (but what are the cahcnes of that happening).
Given for ecxample stuff like Golrious Solar Saber's Molten Sun Blade, is there any chance the Solar Charmset or Ambitions Evocations will contain stuff that together with perhaps our disguise effects allwos us to fake being FIre Caste more efficiently or is Solar stuff in general too iconic or too well documented by the Immaculate Order for that?
Secondly, how much merit or disadvantage is there to giving Ambition to Moon largely for the drive to self-improvement it supplies and avoiding spending XP on Evocations that would be lost when it's returned to Uly?
If Uly spends the Solar XP he has to quickly get as many Evocations as he can afford before giving Ambition to Moon for the next months of cramming school subjects and spending normal XP, she could probably benefit from that drive alone and Uly could still recall the blade instantly should an occasion arise where he needs its prowess, even if we take Safety and Power (but what are the cahcnes of that happening).
Rihaku
The Internet
You can cast normal GSS instead of Ambition and make it look like a saber made of flame instead of sunlight, if you absolutely have to. It's not a perfect solution, but it does burn things with epic heat. Maybe you're 'concentrating the power of your anima,' in a technique that Zao taught you!
If she can't use the Evocations, that is pretty meh. Training Evocations is actually the majority of your training time, the Charms themselves only take 20 days even with cramming.
Emerald Oracle
Chaos, yet harmony. Death, yet the Force
- Location
- The Else
What all does the training at the Academy actually entail? What are we cramming into those six months? Is there any mechanical benefit there, because it seems like there should at least be some increase to Sail and Lore from completing school like that, unless we're just finishing it for the sake of passing finals and intend to forget everything immediately after or something.