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Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

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Alratan said:
Could we safely deploy Spirit Link for non-shamans if we make our own demons, e.g. with CCP, using them in place of world spirits?
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Simple Demons will not work. Only beings like Worldsouls or the CHaos Gods or beings near that level will work. The fundamental part of Spirit link is the connection to the Spirit world (the Warp).

Unless you get your Inner World Charm, the only option you currently have is the World Spirit.
Alratan said:
Berserker seems something to be very cautious of, although perhaps people with high True Faith could safely use it as a manifestation of righteous wrath.
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The Problem with Berserk is that you loose control. True Faith shuts down the merit, making it a moot point. Berserk is Khorn Bait for a reason due to fundamentally what it is. Power in exchange for Sanity, which is what Khorn offers.
 
Yzarc said:
Simple Demons will not work. Only beings like Worldsouls or the CHaos Gods or beings near that level will work. The fundamental part of Spirit link is the connection to the Spirit world (the Warp).

Unless you get your Inner World Charm, the only option you currently have is the World Spirit.
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Would it be going too far to say that Shamans basically already have the effects of the Spirit Link and Garou Gifts mutations, and that's what allows them to do what they do?

Soul bonding with the Emperor as Astropaths do seems like something analagous. Although I think one of the Inquisition books us that Soul Binding works on much smaller scale entities as well, so it may be something different.
 
Alratan said:
Would it be going too far to say that Shamans basically already have the effects of the Spirit Link and Garou Gifts mutations, and that's what allows them to do what they do?

Soul bonding with the Emperor as Astropaths do seems like something analagous. Although I think one of the Inquisition books us that Soul Binding works on much smaller scale entities as well, so it may be something different.
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Pretty much yeah. They can bargain for Gifts but they already have the link. It is what makes it safe.....safer for them to use the Warp.
 
So, Spirit Links and Gifts seems like something for much later in the game. At the least we'd need to restore the local Worldsouls, and even then I assume that the Spirit Link and Gifts would only be safe to use on the local world. That would potentially be useful during the unification of Colchis is we restore the Worldsoul before it's complete, but then wouldn't be useful on Crusade.

Unless, perhaps, Spirit Links could be used during the training of psykers, to allow them to practice with Gnosis rather than Willpower*, so that they're more practiced and less likely to blow themselves up when they go out into the wider galaxy.

*If Willpower is both the 'health track' for social combat and the effective fuel for using psyker powers, then that combination can get very unhealthy when being a psyker and in particular using psyker powers opens you up to having daemons whispering directly into your mind. Being able to use Gnosis instead of Willpower would be a lot healthier.

This also makes me wonder if the other Willpower based supernatural mutations are also effectively specialised psyker mutations with the attendant risks.

This all then makes me wonder where Enlightned Essence comes into play. Could a mutant use some amount of Essence to substitute for Gnosis to power a mutation. We'd probably need to grant a psyker Enlightened Essence first, and our likely initial candidate, Lorgar, is a bit of a special case.

SouvikKundu said:
Can we able to create more patronova Navigators rather than canon just one?
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I doubt it, IIRC, the Paternova is the result of the heirs of the various Navigator Houses being compelled to go all Highlander 'There can be only one!" On each other, with the winner then empowering their own relatives.

I think there's some suggestion that the Navigators are networked, that they may not be of entirely human origin, that they're an attempt to make humans into a proper psychic species like the Eldar. I think the implication is that the Navigatoes are to some degree a gestalt warp entity with the Paterniva as the focus, which is why when they die all Navigators except potential heirs' powers are reduced until there's.a new Paternova.

Making Lorgar into a second Paternova wouod probably require building a parallel Navigator collective for him to be the head of. Gh FB existing Navigators are likely to find that a mortal threat.

Given the Navigators are apparently engineered, taking a look at an existing one with the second purchase of FDA to reverse engineer how they work before making Lorgar one would be pretty important, rather than just adding him to the existing network blind.
 
I also wondering what will happen if Emperor soulbind our clan psykers to create astropaths? Can they able to subsume the soulshard and incorporate Emperor's aspect or affinities completely?
 
Thinking about it, Navigators get some funky powers, like being able to go 'Hmm, I don't like where I'm currently standing. Hey, I see that there's a parallel time line where I turned left instead of right, I think I'll be in that location instead." And they're there. They don't even hop timeline. Everyone else's actions remain the same. They're just suddenly in a different place. It's not even teleportation. Their warp eye just allows them to see into other nearby timelines and take a property of themselves from there (their location) and apply it to their current self.

Things like this; plus accurate enough short ranged precognition* to use in combat wouod probably be amazing for a mental focused Primarch who can process all this information better than a regular Navigator ever could. Short ranged precognition of the range of possible futures could be amazing for diplomacy as well as combat.

* Look intro the a/quasi-temporal Warp with the warp eye and look out into the possible somewhen elses. Seeing multiple potential futur branching timeline all at once is obviously a challenge, even if the Navigators' mutations and training allows them to do it, but a mental Primarch should be vastly better at it. As a note this seems to be a part (not the whole) of how Navigators navigate, by identifying the best future timelines most likely to get them to their destination and then taking the actions required to keep to that shifting path, with the complication that the daemonic opposition may be capable of doing the same kind of thing to try to interfere.

If we can make it work, a Navigator Lorgar would be tremendously effective on the Crusade, as they'd be an amazing general just because of their superior precognition.

Despite the risk, the payoff of making Lorgar a Navigator could be worth it. Particularly as further down the line when we're higher Essence we might be able to use BAF to make Lorgar the Paternova (as the existing one and then all the Heirs Apparent have a series of date enforced accidents) by granting him the right Status or Rank Background.

Another interesting option might be to see if we can give Fan the warp eye mutation and have him become a Nacigator and see if we can use SWLIHN charms on the connections between the Navigators to usurp it by becoming part of their hierarchy and then putting himself at the top. That kind of play does depend on how we want to interact with the Emperor. Taking control of the Navigators would put in a position of immense influence. Particularly as we could well pretend to have been a Navigator all along and possibly back that deception with the Ebon Dragon perfect disguise charms by the time the Emperor arrives.

SouvikKundu said:
I am talking about turning our clan members who carry navigator gene as powerful as patronova.
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Ah. Once again I think not. Being a Paternova isn't about your genes, it's about your position in the Navigator collective, the focus of their psychic might.

We could potentially make a new not-Navigator psychic collective with one of our clan members as the focal point of that, but we'd probably have to make a lot of not-Navigators for our neo-Paternova to equal the original.

A more grandiose plane would be to make everyone on the planet a superhuman Not-Navigator by the time the Emperor shows up. Add a modified not-Navigator warp eye mutation to the standard package to make super humans I proposed above, have Lorgar slightly modify his doctrine to evangelise about why the perception granted by the warp eye is a quasi-holy tool for personal development that his new faithful should embrace (there actually is a Navigator power for self-reflection), and let rip.

We'd need to make a genetic universal 'healthcare' sevice to apply genetor package on a global scale, but that's probably doable given the level of automation we can probably achieve.
 
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Yzarc said:
Spoiler. Can't say.
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I am wondering is it possible to bind worldspirit with inhabitants soul so when they die their soul will subsumed by Worldspirit? A similar case like exodite world spirit without spiritstone drawback. Worldspirit will grow in power with souls and worship while inhabitants can ensure their souls are safe from warp.
 
SouvikKundu said:
I am wondering is it possible to bind worldspirit with inhabitants soul so when they die their soul will subsumed by Worldspirit? A similar case like exodite world spirit without spiritstone drawback. Worldspirit will grow in power with souls and worship while inhabitants can ensure their souls are safe from warp.
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Look, technically anything is possible with Sorcery. Realistically? Try it in game and find out. Sorcery is the ultimate Multi tool. You can do damn near anything with it.
 
Votes closed.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on May 12, 2024 at 8:20 AM, finished with 105 posts and 14 votes.
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I was thinking of scaling applying mutations to deal with the bottleneck that Yzarc has often mentioned Fan would be if we rely only on VEE.

The things I've considered:

Genetic engineering tools/Vats (possibly archeotech replicas if we find any) for mutations that can be granted 'naturally'
Manse powers - create a demesne with CCP and then build a manse with a refluffed mutation focused factory cathedral on top for some others.
Use CCP to create specific species of demon that can temporarily possess/inhabit someone and transform them before leaving

I also think we might be able to combine these. Build a factory cathedral that uses magitech to augment, accelerate, and extend what the 'conventional' biotech transformation vats can do while having the sleeping subject possessed by a demon who assumes direct control of the process both by controlling what the conventional and magitech tools are doing from the outside and by using its own powers to transform them from within. That way the demon can tailor the genetic transformation to the subject's needs and biology, do things like teach the subject in their dreams as they transform, and apply any spiritual transformation while touching their soul. If the demonic posession only happens inside a shielded vat, then it's much harder for anyone to catch on that this is happening.

We could pair this with Manses with powers designed to help train people, particularly in terrestrial martial arts once we invent them, but also possibly in the safer ways to use psyker powers.

Something else to consider is that we can create Followers with CCP. A Follower can't have awakened essence (that's what the option to create useful servants with one dot of essence is for), but they can have stats equivilent to an elite soldier, although they can be of any profession, whether soldiers or crafters or whatever. They would be ideal targets for such an industrialised transformation process. Although they're real people after they're created, I think the infernal creating them basically weaves a story of who they are, building them a history and then makes it real. We can choose to tell a story that would lead to them generally enthusiastically volunteering for augmentation when they come into existence, viewing it as the natural first step to take before joining the wider world. We can also probably tell stories which would mean they're likely to be stable characters with the right attitudes to resist temptation. Followers automatically start as extremely loyal as well.

Something that could be very important is whether humans we create as Followers have the potential for Enlightened Essence (and True Faith). If they automatically have the former, then if we can automate the process of granting the Enlightened Essence mutation using the above kinds of setup then some other things become much easier.

CCP can create an organised social group of us to 1000 people per turn, or ten thousand if they're not organised, so with the right infrastructure we could expand in size and transform the population balance of Colchis quite quickly.

The Froggy Ninja said:
Kind of sounds more like prayer eating.
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There may be similarities; but it's a two way connection, give that the Paternova empowers nearly all Navigators save a few who are depowered, and particularly empowers their closer relatives, and the way Heir Apparent emerge and are compelled to fight each other to compete to be the next to take on the role.

It's more SWLiHN than Cecylene, you have a multilayered hierarchy: Paternova> their House > regular Navigators > the disempowered few.

The net power flow also seems to be overall in the broad swathe of Navigators favour. They're generally strengthened by the Paternova in a way that doesn't happen with prayer.

It's also apparently involuntary. A Navigator doesn't need to worship the Paterniva or even be aware of their existence to benefit from them or to be a Heir Apparent and a candidate to become the next Paternova.

Whatever it was that engineered the Navigators may have used the same kind of phenomena that prayer eating is based on, there could well be some kind of collective Navigator quasi-god that the Paternova is the avatar of that empowers the rest of the Navigators (similar to the Eldar idea that their gods are/were part of them and they were part of their gods).

If there is potentially some warp entity that Navigators involuntarily worship who blesses them in return for that prayer, that's a reason to be cautious about plugging Lorgar into it.

Note, it's not an absolute reason not to. Lorgar is the Primarch best suited to take such a connection and turn it into a strength by hacking it and taking it over.

However, if so I'd prefer to go into that with our eyes open so we can back him up, whether by Fan becoming a Navigator as well, using VEE to give him the required knowledge, doing some sorcery, or whatever.

Going back to what Yzarc was saying about Spirit Ties, if there is a warp entity backing the Navigators it could well be worldsoul in scale, as the way they have psychic powers that aren't psyker powers sounds a lot like Shamans who get granted Spirit Ties and Gifts. There could be a lot of potential here.

However, before we try anything like that I'd want to use the second purchase of AMI on a Navigator. Navigators are clearly engineered products of some kind of bio-warp-tech, so we should be able to use AMI to deceive the blueprints for them. That should hopefully tell us enough to know what we're getting ourselves into.

On that note, there are lots of examples of engineered entities around in 40K that AMIx2 should work on. I wonder what we could learn about how the Emperor made the Primarchs by using it on Lorgar, or how the Old Ones made the Eldar and Orks by using it on them. I'd expect that we'd lack the exotic reagents to make them, but we could learn a lot. Specifically, I wonder if we could learn how to culture gene seed from Lorgar's cells to make our own space marines before the Emperor arrives.
 
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Interlude: That which never was
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    • Colchis - 831.M30
    In the depths of sleep, you found yourself wandering through a vast, endless desert of pristine white sand. The sky above was a brilliant shade of black, with no sun to cast shadows. The only sound was the soft whisper of the wind as it danced across the dunes.

    In the distance, you saw a vast city made of Brass and Basalt, its towering spires reaching for the sky. A Crimson, silent wind blew through the city, chasing darkness in the shape of a Dragon.

    As you walked, something shimmered in the distance, sparking your curiosity. Quickening your pace, you soon came upon a breathtaking sight. Spread out before you were 999,997 crystal spheres, each one glinting in the light.

    Reaching out to touch one, a surge of power coursed through you, unlike anything you had ever experienced. Pure energy flowed into your being, overwhelming yet invigorating.

    Suddenly, you found yourself in a different place entirely. Surrounded by darkness, a dim light illuminated a group of figures standing before you. One of them, a young Maiden, seemed to embody the essence of the desert itself.

    "Once, there was a maiden..." a voice echoed, narrating her story. She put a price on justice, life, love, and truth, calling it charity when she took them. Her debtors showed her the error of her ways, but she charged them for that, preferring to be right. Pushed away by her debtors, she pretended they were criminals. "Rightness is strength," declared the Capricious Maiden.

    As you pondered, the scene shifted. The maiden watched as her libraries burned, her laws twisted, and her words mocked, feeling powerless to save anything. Desperate, she burned libraries, twisted laws, and mocked words, trying to understand the new rules. "Rightness is strength," she declared once more.

    Continuing the vision, another maiden stepped forward, embodying the essence of the Crystal Spheres.

    "Once, there was a maiden..." the voice narrated her story. She knew nothing and everything, believing her thoughts to be truth and teaching others that they were wrong. When her students proved new things, she burned them and their proofs, unable to accept being wrong. Pushed away by her students, she pretended she had left them behind. "Rightness is strength," sobbed the Precise Maiden.

    The scene shifted again. The maiden tried everything to prevent a catastrophe, only to see everything break down, realizing it was worse than she had ever imagined. She begged and pleaded, but her pleas fell on deaf ears, and she was forced to confront the harsh reality of her failures. "Rightness is strength," she sobbed, embodying the sorrow and regret of the Precise Maiden.

    As the vision unfolded, a young man stepped forward, his brow crowned by a green flame that flickered with an ethereal light, though it seemed to be missing a jewel. He stood before you, a symbol of the Brass City, radiating an aura of power and determination.

    "Once, there was a man..." the voice narrated his story. He made everyone dance on strings, blaming them when he was no longer the best dancer, and lashing out at people and puppets alike. When the puppets asked why, he didn't answer, preferring to be right. Pushed away by the puppets, he pretended their dances were terrible. "Rightness is strength," screamed the Hateful Man.

    The scene shifted, revealing a man whose heart was broken but who hid his pain, pretending to be angry. Unable to cope, he inflicted harm on himself and others, consumed by self-hatred. "Rightness is strength," he screamed one final time.

    As the vision continued, a young maiden appeared before you, refusing to stay still, always in motion. She seemed to embody the essence of the silent wind, her presence both calming and unsettling.

    "Once, there was a maiden..." the voice narrated her story. She harmed everyone around her, aware that everything she touched died. She had children to protect them from herself, but when they cried for safety, she killed them, unable to accept being wrong. Pushed away by her children, she pretended her killing was an act of love. "Rightness is strength," mused the Silent Maiden.

    The scene shifted, revealing a maiden who protected her children, only to die by their hands and watch them perish at the hands of her enemies. Unable to understand, she shrugged and found new pursuits, outpacing her tears and joys. She realized she didn't have to worry anymore. "Rightness is strength," mused the Silent Maiden once more.

    You felt something behind you and as you turned around, you were startled to find.....yourself, your scales shimmering black in the dim light.

    "Once, there was Fan Morgal..." the voice narrated your story. You claimed that everything was lies, creating a truth for people to turn away from. But they trusted each other and achieved wonders together. You lied, saying their virtues were lies too, because you preferred to be right. Pushed away by the heroes, who brought both good and evil, you pretended it was all lies. "Rightness is not," you cackled.

    The scene shifted once more, revealing the moment where you made your own worst enemy and started to torment them, making everything they loved worse. Instead of killing you, the enemy treated you better than anyone else ever had, showing you that they could make things more worse than you ever could. "Rightness is not," you cackled, the sound echoing through the darkness.

    As the vision faded, a feeling of unstoppable rage filled you, a fury so potent it could break worlds. It was a raw, primal emotion, driving you with an intensity you had never felt before.

    "Once, there was a man..." the voice began, narrating a new tale. He was bullied and mocked, forced to surrender to forces beyond his control. In his desperation, he took up the powers of Hell, seeking vengeance against those who had wronged him.

    He looked up at his abuser, the one who had bid him to bend knee, the one he both feared and hated. "But one day I shall be King," thought the Strong Man, his heart filled with a burning desire for power and control.

    As the rage threatened to consume you, a brilliant golden light filled the sky, illuminating the desert around you. The light was warm and inviting, driving away the shadows and filling you with a sense of peace and hope.

    You looked up and saw the source of the light - the sun, shining brightly overhead. Its rays danced across the sand, casting long shadows and painting the world in a golden hue. It was a sight of beauty and wonder, a reminder of the power and majesty of the natural world.

    In the midst of this radiant display, a boy stood before you. He seemed to embody the grace, speed, and power of the sun itself. His movements were fluid and effortless, lacking any formality yet exuding an unstoppable and unchallengeable grace.

    There was a presence about him, a determination that would better fit champions and heroes. He looked as though he was shouldering the world, bearing a burden so that others could face the greatest monsters with nothing but their hands and skill, and be undaunted by them.

    His presence was both reassuring and awe-inspiring. You felt a surge of courage and determination, knowing that with his guidance and strength, you could face whatever challenges lay ahead.

    "Once, there was a boy..." the story began. His parents were gone, but he worked tirelessly, becoming impervious to danger and invisible to all. But when he witnessed a innocent being threatened, he stepped forward, shielding them from harm. "Leadership is protection," said the Boy.

    The scene shifted, and the boy frequented libraries and prisons, conversing with kings and peasants alike, though often delivering insults. Observing that people were too afraid to look at him, he restored their dignity and directed their gaze to beauty. "Leadership is inspiration," said the boy.

    Then, the scene changed, and the boy, feeling betrayed, unleashed his fury upon temples and gods. Seeing those who trusted him in tears, he embarked on building a new temple. "Leadership is faith," said the boy.

    The scene shifted again, and the boy engaged in relentless battles, eventually forgetting their purpose upon achieving victory. Upon turning around, he beheld soldiers, farmers, children, and dreamers, and remembered. "Leadership is greatness," declared the boy.

    The scene shifted yet again, and the boy traversed land and sea, witnessing the world's myriad wonders yet unable to unite them. He blew his horn, commanding each of his defeated foes to work together, and upon completion, he smiled. "Leadership is harmony," said the boy.

    Then you wake up, your dream quickly forgotten.
    GAIN: ESSENCE 2
    You have successfully spent 38xp + 16xp = 54xp. You qualify for raising Essence. 7xp banked.

    CHOICE 1: Choose 1 to Unlock their Charm Set
    [] Malfeas
    [] Ebon Dragon
    [] Adorjan

    MARTIAL ARTS: Choose one as your Native Martial Arts
    [] Solar Hero Style
    [] Infernal Monster Style
     
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    • [X] Ebon Dragon

    This is where all the the stealth charms are. 40K being what it is even the Infernal will have cause to hide and we will definitely have cause to lie

    [X] Solar Hero Style

    This is the style that works with the human body, yes please.
     
    Infernal Monster Style has many downsides, I admit.

    However, it does have the amazingly thematic divination blocker that changes the results of attempt to divine the user to just return 'The Monster is here.'
     
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