As a last note, I wonder if there's potential value in Fan giving himself the Warp Eye mutation and then pretending he's a Navigator down the line. They're well known for having esoteric bullshit powers and also for being deeply interested in genetic research. It provides a great cover for a lot of our bullshit which would make it a lot easier for the Emperor to understand. High end Navigator powers do a lot of timeline manipulation bullshit which justifies a whole multitude of crap.

As long as we do not go too ham on it we can just take this:

Hidden Power

2 Point MeritNone of your Powers or Taints are physically obvious. You appear to be human (or whatever you were before becoming a fomor). If you have extra limbs or body barbs, they are retractable and hidden under a sheath of skin. You seem to be one of the crowd.

And then a suit of inhuman powers that we mostly don't use.

It's about Grimdark not Grimederp, Grimederp means horrific for the sake of being horrific; Grey Knights showering themselves in Sisters of Battle blood to fight Khorne the God Of Blood is Grimderp, Emperor needing to devour 1000 psyker children a day so that Astronomicon doesn't get destroyed and fell humanity into another Old Night is Grimdark.

Isn't that just general psykers? I don't think he needs to eat children. A lot of them are going to be children just by the nature of when humans awaken into power, but the above sounds a bit more definite.
 
Psyker children are like any children filled with raw potential not yet dilluted and harden by time and experience making them very malleable.

Not going to lie that sounds a bit silly and like it was designed to be grimdark for the sake of it. I mean for one the definition of a child is hardly universal in the IoM. What is 'not hardened by time and experience' in a child of planetary nobility sure as heck is in an underhive urchin.
 
As long as we do not go too ham on it we can just take this:

Hidden Power

2 Point MeritNone of your Powers or Taints are physically obvious. You appear to be human (or whatever you were before becoming a fomor). If you have extra limbs or body barbs, they are retractable and hidden under a sheath of skin. You seem to be one of the crowd.

And then a suit of inhuman powers that we mostly don't use.

That's true. Shame we can't grant Merits with VEE, I think. If we could I can see decent arguments for giving Lorgar a Warp Eye along with that merit.

Ironically, one of the reasons for Fan developing a Warp Eye would be not to hide it, it would be to provide and excuse for his other powers.

Not for this time; but what are your thoughts on Fan learning Brain Eating himself and then harvesting XP from enemies and animals?
 
That's true. Shame we can't grant Merits with VEE, I think. If we could I can see decent arguments for giving Lorgar a Warp Eye along with that merit.

Ironically, one of the reasons for Fan developing a Warp Eye would be not to hide it, it would be to provide and excuse for his other powers.

Not for this time; but what are your thoughts on Fan learning Brain Eating himself and then harvesting XP from enemies and animals?

I think we already have a less objectionable way to get resources from dead enemies in the form of crafting charms which likely would not allow double dipping. We should probably stick to that given the dangers of the brain eating getting out.
 
Some extra thoughts on potentially valuable mutations:

Regeneration, 5 points: combat time regeneration at the cost of likely dying young from cancer. The side effect can probably be avoided by pairing it with a three dot Immunity (Cancer) power. Expensive, but in-combat regeneration is pretty amazing. Also pretty obvious to watchers, so something for a small cadre of elite troops.

Berserker 3+ points: Gives a supernatural energy pool that can be used to supercharge in combat. If paired with Regeneration can be spent to accelerate that. Depth of pool can be upgraded for more points.

Spirit Ties 3+ points: Gives a supernatural energy pool that can be used to do spiritual things such as pay for the usual Willpower cost of other powers or for gifts granted by the Garou Gifts power. Depth of pool can be upgraded for more points.

Mega-Attribute* 3 points/dot: increase an Attribute to a maximum of eight.

Immunity* 1/3/6: Become immune to one minor, major, or terminal threat. E.g. 3 dots is disease immunity to screw Nurgle over.

Homogeneity 6 points: Block all supernatural powers in your immediate vicinity. Pariah gene here?

Extra Speed* 3/6 points: Be superhumanly fast or even faster (at everything, not just running, effectively allowing you to multitask)

Deception 7 points: Makes spiritual nature of the mutant undetectable

Brain Eating 6 points: Damage a target creatures chosen mental ability with a touch in return for improving yourself (OOC gain XP)

* I've marked powers a Genetor may be able to grant. Extra speed is a big one.

I think we already have a less objectionable way to get resources from dead enemies in the form of crafting charms which likely would not allow double dipping. We should probably stick to that given the dangers of the brain eating getting out.

Brain eating is very, very hard to detect. You don't actually need to eat brains, you just touch the target and it damages their mind, leaving no physical injury but giving you some of the potential they've lost (one XP you can spend on anything per mental dot they lose). You don't even need to kill them, although overusing this power on them multiple times will eventually leave them non-functional. And it's usable on humans and animals that don't give reagents unlike spirit killed with PIO. Not that it would necessarily reduce the payout from PIO.

And not that we'd need it, but it's also a subtle way to attack political enemies in social situations, shake their hands and make them less intelligent, quick witted, or perceptive:

Article:
Brain Eating
6 Points
This potent Power literally allows the fomor to "chew up" a victim's mind, reducing a targeted Mental Attribute by one dot permanently and absorbing it as one point for their own experience point pool. This does no actual damage to the target's brain, and is thus undetectable by scientific means.
System: The fomor spends on Willpower and rolls Intelligence+Occult (difficulty 6). The target may resist this with her Willpower (difficulty 6). The fomor must touch this target for this power to be effective.
Example: The fomor touches a foe and targets her Intelligence. If successful, the victim loses one dot of Intelligence and the fomor adds one point to his experience point total. He may then use that point to buy anything he could normally purchase with one point of experience, or he may save it and add it to other points. This Power may only be attempted against a single target once per scene.


It's significantly less objectionable than what Lorgar's space marines do, in terms of ick, and much more subtle. You can be less subtle and use it on prisoners to gradually break their minds completely, but you'd only do that to people you'd be executing anyway, or on animals in advance of slaughtering them. One can very dubiously argue that removing their ability to know what's happening before killing them, you make the slaughtering process kinder.

And nothing is worth as much as XP, just about.
 
Last edited:
Small note here, it is a max of five if you still want the result to look human, otherwise it starts to show inhuman features. In werewolf where the system comes from any attribute over 5 that is not hidden is inhuman enough to cause Delirium

Or use your suggestion of the Hidden Power merit. I don't think the intention is that someone with Charisma or Intelligence 8 causes Delirium though.

And as we can increase Attributes to 5 with VEE anyway, Mega-Attribute would mostly be useful to get them above 5 - although I can see the value as a genetor treatment.

Probably one for Yzarc to weigh in on.

Edit: not sure if you saw my edited in reply to your above post above.
 
Or use your suggestion of the Hidden Power merit. I don't think the intention is that someone with Charisma or Intelligence 8 causes Delirium though.

And as we can increase Attributes to 5 with VEE anyway, Mega-Attribute would mostly be useful to get them above 5 - although I can see the value as a genetor treatment.

Probably one for Yzarc to weigh in on.

Edit: not sure if you saw my edited in reply to your above post above.

I'm pretty sure they all do, Charisma 8 looks alien and inhuman even as it is alluring like a Slaanesh daemon, Intelligence 8 just has a monstrously large brain from what I recall.

On the brain eating if we can make it work on animals it would be worthwhile yes, though that does seem like it might be a bit too easy to abuse.
 
I'm pretty sure they all do, Charisma 8 looks alien and inhuman even as it is alluring like a Slaanesh daemon, Intelligence 8 just has a monstrously large brain from what I recall.

On the brain eating if we can make it work on animals it would be worthwhile yes, though that does seem like it might be a bit too easy to abuse.

If that's the case we probably need to be able to grant the Hidden Powers merit (which sounds pretty similar to a mutation on its own) to rrally make Mega-Attributes useful.

As for Brain Eating, even if we can't use it on animals (although nothing in the power stops you doing so) it's still very useful to use on human enemies. The only people I can see being able to detect that something has happened are Psykers, who are both rare and untrusted. There are lots of Chaos Worshippers on Colchiss who I think would be acceptable targets to have their mental abilities drained before sending their souls to meet their gods. Would possibly make their souls less valuable to their masters as well.

Also, getting extra xp is a really very valuable thing. Even if we only get to use the power rarely, a small drip of extra XP per arch would mean it would pay for itself over time.

Plus, to really get into the Infernal Mindset, we could combine VEE and Brain Eating to farm people for XP. Boost their mental stats to fives in return for them allowing us to 'train' with them while warning them that it could be dangerous and mentally exhausting, and then raise the stats back up again after they've accomplished the task by us draining their mental stats down again with Brain Eating while sparring with them.

Edit: Of course; that's too broken to be fully allowed on a mass scale, as it basically gives limitless XP. Still, would be interesting to know what is possible.
 
Last edited:
True, but psyker children are more potent unlike adult psykers
Psykers who for some reason or other can not be safely trained or trusted with their power are the ones that get slated to feed to emperor, this naturally leads to sizable numbers of those are children

To give an example how do you train a 3 year old gamma class psyker , how do you instill caution, self control, discipline, awareness , an understanding of the dangers of the being a psyker and the willpower to resist the whispers of the warp in a 3 year old

The answer is you don't , not to mention what are you supposed to do you when said 3 year old gamma class psyker does like a 3 year old and has a tantrum letting his emotions and powers run wild leveling whole city blocks

Hence psyker children get fed to the golden throne not because they are children and thus make better sacrifices but because its the only thing that can be done with them
 
Just VEE, or would we need Scoured Perfection of Form for the preliminary stages as well as the final mutation.

Hopefully we can make artifacts that screen for the potential for Enlightened Essence otherwise finding pupils for martial arts training will be hell.
So VEE, SPF and BAF. You need to grant it in character before you can know what the exact requirements are.
Brain Eating 6 points: Damage a target creatures chosen mental ability with a touch in return for improving yourself (OOC gain XP)
I will be disallowing Brain eating for the MC and Circle members. It would completely break Progression's back. Same but for different reasons with regards to NPC.

I do not track xp other than what you grant NPCs and even otherwise? NPCs can only learn attribute/abilities/willpower and need training time for it. They need tutours for anything beyond 3 dots, even Willpower. So I generally abstract away the xp requirements by seeing if they performed the minimum time needed to learn it.

So long story short, brain eating is being disallowed outside of special cases for the reason that it creates WAY too much work and book keeping.
Probably one for Yzarc to weigh in on.
Attribute 6+ is obvious when in use. As in if you lift a Garbage truck with one hand, it is obvious you have Super Strength. But other than that, not much else.

Depending on the enhancement, you can be buff or have bulging muscles, etc, but it is not necessarily obvious.
That's true. Shame we can't grant Merits with VEE, I think. If we could I can see decent arguments for giving Lorgar a Warp Eye along with that merit.
You can grant merits with VEE? I am grouping it under backgrounds, internal backgrounds to be specific, so BoAF grants it.
 
Last edited:
combat time regeneration at the cost of likely dying young from cancer. The side effect can probably be avoided by pairing it with a three dot Immunity (Cancer) power.
So on this. Any power you grant can or cannot have downsides depending on what you want. So you CAN grant cancer free regeneration and regenaration that causes cancer.

Same with other mutations. Essentially? You can control the wish to be as good or bad as you want it to.
 
As an aside, getting a large population of Navigators (possibly making Lorgar one and seeing if that propagates to his geneseed) is a pretty high priority imo. Putting aside their utility in space travel (and how getting them in our debt would make breaking their monopoly much easier) navigators are immune to infohazards and have a fair variety of potent daemon hunting techniques, in terms of tracking, debuffs, defense and attack.
 
So; putting this together, what would a full transhuman package look like. I'm sticking to what I think could be reverse engineered and turned into an augmentation process by a genetor.

Mega Attributes (x7): to get from the average rating of 2 to the max of 8 for all 3 Attributes plus adding three health levels

Longevity (x2): to get quadruple lifespan

Exalted Healing: to recover from injuries quickly without scarring and not be at danger of bleeding to death

Selective Conception: to control conception

Extra Speed (x2): to be able to move, think, and generally act significantly faster than a human can

Darksight: To see in the dark

Immunity (Disease)

Immunity (Poison)

Immunity (Radiation)

For the comedically high total of 17 uses of VEE+SPF.

Now for the best outcome, you'd want to apply this entire package of mutations to several people, spanning genders. VEE granted mutations manifest in a way that ensures they play nicely with other mutations the target already have, meaning that the whole set isn't less than the sum of its parts or worse, and incompatible, as might be the case with genetor augments derived from mutations applied to different people.

I wonder if the task we give people in return for a mutation is to allow invasive examination and collaborate in study of its effects by a Genetor, and keep giving new versions of that task for each incremental mutation that we add. That would advance our goals and, if we're responsible, be something we should do anyway before mass deploying augmentations based on it. Even if this is possible, I'm not sure how long the period of study would need to be to count as a sufficient task, as that's the interval at which we could bestow mutations.

Then, when the full package is in place, we use the second purchase of FDA to derive a blueprint for a single coherent genetor augmentation representing the combination of all the mutations. That package can then be rolled out more broadly than we could ever manage with VEE.

I will be disallowing Brain eating for the MC and Circle members. It would completely break Progression's back. Same but for different reasons with regards to NPC.

I do not track xp other than what you grant NPCs and even otherwise? NPCs can only learn attribute/abilities/willpower and need training time for it. They need tutours for anything beyond 3 dots, even Willpower. So I generally abstract away the xp requirements by seeing if they performed the minimum time needed to learn it.

So long story short, brain eating is being disallowed outside of special cases for the reason that it creates WAY too much work and book keeping.

Just on this, would Berserker, Spirit Ties, and (a limited set of) Garou Gifts be Ok? Whether for Circlemates or for elite followers?

Giving people inherent supernatural energy pools even if they aren't Essence so they don't need to draw directly on the Warp for power seems like a big deal - particularly as it seems like it might have synergy with Sorcery and Faith related rituals - using Gnosis to power them rather than just Willpower.

As an aside, getting a large population of Navigators (possibly making Lorgar one and seeing if that propagates to his geneseed) is a pretty high priority imo. Putting aside their utility in space travel (and how getting them in our debt would make breaking their monopoly much easier) navigators are immune to infohazards and have a fair variety of potent daemon hunting techniques, in terms of tracking, debuffs, defense and attack.

I'm a bit cautious about hooking Lorgar directly into the Navigator collective; although him becoming the Paternova would be interesting.

The fact that he's already a psyker would be interesting, as psyker-navigators seem either unknown, very rare, or to lead to the kind of Navigator that are locked in the basement for study and not allowed out.

I wonder if we need to meet a Navigator before we can bestow the Warp Eye - or if we have, as the Archmagos probably had one with him.
 
Last edited:
Just on this, would Berserker, Spirit Ties, and (a limited set of) Garou Gifts be Ok? Whether for Circlemates or for elite followers?
Berserk is Khorn bait, though the Warhounds do get a version of it. I will roll accordingly if some one has it.

Spirit link and Garou Gifts only safely work on Shamans, as anything else will draw from the Warp or a being from the Warp.
 
Berserk is Khorn bait, though the Warhounds do get a version of it. I will roll accordingly if some one has it.

Spirit link and Garou Gifts only safely work on Shamans, as anything else will draw from the Warp or a being from the Warp.

Could we safely deploy Spirit Link for non-shamans if we make our own demons, e.g. with CCP, using them in place of world spirits? For example, have a very minor demon that attaches themselves to someone and does little else but serve as a filter/power source so they can safely use Spirit Link and Garou Gift mutations?

Spirit Link is something that seems to be by far the most useful for psykers, as it allows the substitution of gnosis for the willpower used by other mutations. Psyker powers are a mutation whose use seems likely to be based on willpower.

Berserker seems something to be very cautious of, although perhaps people with high True Faith could safely use it as a manifestation of righteous wrath.

The big issue, of course, is scaling. Even if we get these to work as mutations we apply, these supernatural mutations aren't the kind of thing a genetor can turn into a genetic augmentation (probably).

Depending on how similar our Demons and people possessed by them are to Fomor, I wonder if we could use CCP to make a self-replicating species of demon that could possess people without controlling the resulting merges being and granted the following powers;

1) Spirit Link: to grant Gnosis
2) Deception: to hide its spiritual presence
3) Reproduction: to allow the demon to duplicate itself and have the offspring automatically possess someone else (but limit it to willing targets)
4) Garou Gift: with the proviso that as the host strengthened itself the demon symbiote would grow in power alongside it so that it grant Gifts appropriate for the mortal host

This is essentially an attempt to make bootleg Infernal quasi-Terrestrial Exaltations. They're not actually Exaltations at all, but they're probably the closest a Defiler can reasonably get towards making something that looks like them. Depending on what we can do with demons it's possible they could also carry skills with them into the merged being, allowing us to scale up from us personally granting abilities with VEE.

If this idea was feasible it might also be worth trying to make a variation that could only possess people with True Faith and granted Berserker and Regeneration.

Experimenting with this kind of thing would have to be kept very secret, but it could be immensely powerful.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top