That feels a bit too vague for how the mechanics work in this quest. It is basically Apecraft's blessings with less direction for the GM on how it works.

Apecraft's Blessing makes you better at using tools. Gaia's The Machine God's Toolbox tells you what you should do with the tools you have that you may not have thought of.

I'd fluff it as divine inspiration from the Machine God. You ask it what you could do with the Terraforming engines to better defeat the Shard of Winter, and it prompts you to realise that you can arrange the mountain ranges and rivers to create a well irritated fertile plain at a location which is geomantically important which pushes the planet back towards being aspected to life rather than death.

Or a smaller scale, Apecraft's Blessing makes you better at using a set of gunsmith's tools to fix a gun. Gaia's The Machine God's Toolbox tells you that you should use those tools to fix a gun so you can use it to shoot the daemon that's hiding over the next sand dune.

The Toolbox charm is effectively a form of tool based divination, directed foresight. It's asking what should I do, not how should I do it. It's a bit like Lorgar's Mythos power that tells him what tasks he needs to do to take over an organisation.

Also notable, Yzarc marked my previous pair as Funny, for what it's worth.
 
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Apecraft's Blessing makes you better at using tools. Gaia's The Machine God's Toolbox tells you what you should do with the tools you have that you may not have thought of.

I'd fluff it as divine inspiration from the Machine God. You ask it what you could do with the Terraforming engines to better defeat the Shard of Winter, and it prompts you to realise that you can arrange the mountain ranges and rivers to create a well irritated fertile plain at a location which is geomantically important which pushes the planet back towards being aspected to life rather than death.

Or a smaller scale, Apecraft's Blessing makes you better at using a set of gunsmith's tools to fix a gun. Gaia's The Machine God's Toolbox tells you that you should use those tools to fix a gun so you can use it to shoot the daemon that's hiding over the next sand dune.

The Toolbox charm is effectively a form of tool based divination, directed foresight. It's asking what should I do, not how should I do it.

Also notable, Yzarc marked my previous pair as Funny, for what it's worth.

Yeah, that makes sense. Changed it over.
 
Yeah, that makes sense. Changed it over.

I've just realised the implication of Thalassa only being able to equip Gifts that are aligned with her Primary or Secondary mythos focus.

If we got Mental/Physical she won't be able to use social gifts in combat. That's fine for Release from Bondage, thanks to Fan being able to use Ultimate Darkness Internalisation to take prisoners who can be dealt with later.

The issue is Spirit Ward. It's Manipulation + Rituals. Now, I'd normally think of performing a ritual and creating a ward as being mentally themed, but the mechanics make it a social check, so we may not be able to equip the Gift without having a social focus. @Yzarc, is that the case here?
 
It is Mental or that is how I am interpreting it. So Mental primary or secondary.

Just a thought on this, but given the way the mechanics work, I'm assuming that gifts that reduce enemy dice pools don't benefit from Mythos success multipliers.

For example, if we take Cortex Implants, and use Preternatural Awareness, we just roll our Mental Pool (plus bonus successes) and deduct those successes from their attack pools, rather than doubling the number of successes and deducting that.

This is because for enemies in power armour or other supernatural multipliers, the dice pool is before their successes are multiplied, and it seems a bit unfair that our multipliers are used when reducing their unmultiplied pool.

Spirit Ward being mental makes a primary mental build more attractive. Thalassa with Transhuman Mental Aptitude, Spirit Ward, Preterntural Awarness and Ghost Touch would be incredibly hard for a ghost to hit.
 
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How it goes is you have 20 dice. Any addition or reduction goes before modifiers.

So say 10 base dice. The formula is 10 +X -Y = Z

Where X is bonus dice, Y is penalty dice and Z js the final dice for the roll.

Then you add the Superhuman modifiers to difficulty, roll dice and Multiply the result.

Because of this, anything that adds or removes dice do not benefit from any Superhuman modifiers or the System starts breaking down.

It is also shy a few things like Faith rolls and Wards do not benefit as well. Tokeep things fair, especially in uncontestable rolls like this.
 
You know I just realized something. Between Malleable Spirit and Shadow Spite Curse we can steal Daemons of the Chaos gods. Oh not the greater daemons (yet) we have no means to nail them in place until we run them out of resources, but if we get say a Bloodletter of Khorne in a dark alley it might go something like this.

Bloodletter: *Roars in Furry* Blood for the Blood God!
Thalessa: The Machine God says your name is Jim and you are the army logistics spirit
Bloodletter *tries to contest roll* Blood for the...
Fan Morgal: The Shadow of All Things sends his regards *No dice for you*
Jim the Logistics Spirit: How can I help you? :V

Now to be clear this would be a pretty bad waste of our skills and time, but it might be worth doing a few times, just to see if daemons are capable of fear.
 
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You know I just realized something. Between Malleable Spirit and Shadow Spite Curse we can steal Daemons of the Chaos gods. Oh not the greater daemons (yet) we have no means to nail them in place until we run them out of resources, but if we get say a Bloodletter of Khorne in a dark alley it might go something like this.

The thing is, we do! Ultimate Darkness Internalisation. They're trapped in Fan's anima until 'someone' transforms them or Fan releases them.

Nothing says that someone has to be Fan, so with his consent she can probably target them with Malleable Soul while they're trapped there. She then hits them with Spirit Ward and Fan hits them with CCC+Shadow Spite Curse, and then she moves onto Malleable Soul + Iron Resolve. Even for greater daemons, that's a lot of penalties.

To make it Machine Spirit aligned the gift should probably be called something like 'Reformat Soul'.

And if she fails, so what? She can always try again later.

It's what I'm proposing we do with the DAoT ghosts and any corrupted world spirits we encounter in the Umbra, and why I think the option to capture and reformat the Worldsoul before it fully succumbs to Undeath might be at all viable.

Edit: True Faith 9's ability to make a creature regret their evil might also be enough to make a spirit not resist being reformatted, which would make things much easier.

I also wonder if the break curse option for a True Faith 10 miracle (the one that can turn a vampire back into a human or grant them Golconda) might synergise here. Sorcery can apparently do anything, so for the World Spirit or a Ghost I wonder if something like a Working that makes the True Faith miracle function in harmony with the Gift would be possible, with the True Faith doing some of the work and the Gift the rest, if neither would be enough alone. Particularly if we want to do this to the Worldsoul.

Bloodletter: *Roars in Furry* Blood for the Blood God!
Thalessa: The Machine God says your name is Jim and you are the army logistics spirit
Bloodletter *tries to contest roll* Blood for the...
Fan Morgal: The Shadow of All Things sends his regards *No dice for you*
Jim the Logistics Spirit: How can I help you? :V

Now to be clear this would be a pretty bad waste of our skills and time, but it might be worth doing a few times, just to see if daemons are capable of fear.

It depends on how long it takes - and it's also worthwhile strategically - it would make the Chaos Gods very hesitant to risk daemons against us.
 
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Actually, @DragonParadox, a late thought for the plan.

Code of Honour is a two point merit (6 XP) that grants two bonus dice to Willpower rolls. Both Psyker and Sorcery rolls are Willpower related.

Should we consider granting this merit to Lorgar and Dharok? Lorgar has a wide range of psyker abilities, and granting him more psyker dots with VEE in response to a problem (e.g. five dots of Psychoportarion) or granting Dharok that or Sorcery dots (likely Binding, Warding, and Summoning) is something that I think is quite likely.

An extra two dice is only one success per roll on average, but that can be the difference between success or failure. As we just saw with Thalassa's ascension.

On another note, Fan is particularly poorly protected against Mental attacks. Should we consider Cosmic Transcendence of [Self] rather than Essence Dissecting Stare? We just saw how the Onceborn played Kairos like a fiddle. Are we in danger of fighting the last battle and leaving open a major vulnerability. The other members of our circle have Mindshields, but we don't.

I think we may want to strongly consider this as it's a major potential weak spot we know our enemy has previously exploited in others.

Given this, I think Lorgar should take Mind of Steel, even given his other defences, as they're generally based around resisting dirext mental attacks. Lorgar's urge/flaw is a vulnerability we should watch for.

Edit: for example; I think it's rather likely that the Shard of Winter has reached back through time and seized Fan's dead wife and child's souls before they could disintegrate into the Warp, and will pull them out to blackmail him at a dramatically appropriate moment.

@Yzarc, the fluff of Cosmic Transcendence of Self talks about being able to see the big picture, but its mechanics don't support that, as far as I can see. Fluff wise, just as canon Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue) made you willing to do anything to achieve your big picture goals, I'd have thought this would to, but making your Intimacies inviolate isn't quite the same as that. How would this charm interact with attempt, as I hypothesis above, to use his Intimacies against him. Fluff wise I'd have thought it should help him transcend himself and over ride his Intimacies to focus on his wider goals, but it doesn't seem to.
 
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@Yzarc, the fluff of Cosmic Transcendence of Self talks about being able to see the big picture, but its mechanics don't support that, as far as I can see. Fluff wise, just as canon Cosmic Transcendence of (Virtue) made you willing to do anything to achieve your big picture goals, I'd have thought this would to, but making your Intimacies inviolate isn't quite the same as that. How would this charm interact with attempt, as I hypothesis above, to use his Intimacies against him. Fluff wise I'd have thought it should help him transcend himself and over ride his Intimacies to focus on his wider goals, but it doesn't seem to.
Intimacies work a bit different than virtues.

Virtues are things that came in the way of what YOU the character wanted. So if you wanted to really kill this guy, but your compassion was high, it would get in the way of trying to kill him, just because he had a sympathetic back story.

Intimacies are things your character feels and are a part of why they want something. Essentially, unlike virtues, which get in the way of what YOU the character wanted, Intimacies are WHY you want that.

So essentially, this charm gives his intimacies primacy. He could face down the Chaos Gods themselves and say no and stop them cold if they use ANY mind altering means or just social rolls to try and change his intimacies or mentally or emotionally effect him. Because as far as he is concerned? He IS the bigger picture, he knows that is up and what needs to be done and who are others to say what he could or should not do.
 
Intimacies work a bit different than virtues.

Virtues are things that came in the way of what YOU the character wanted. So if you wanted to really kill this guy, but your compassion was high, it would get in the way of trying to kill him, just because he had a sympathetic back story.

Intimacies are things your character feels and are a part of why they want something. Essentially, unlike virtues, which get in the way of what YOU the character wanted, Intimacies are WHY you want that.

So essentially, this charm gives his intimacies primacy. He could face down the Chaos Gods themselves and say no and stop them cold if they use ANY mind altering means or just social rolls to try and change his intimacies or mentally or emotionally effect him. Because as far as he is concerned? He IS the bigger picture, he knows that is up and what needs to be done and who are others to say what he could or should not do.

Hmm. I'm not sure I'd agree. I'd say that your virtues were just as much parts of you as your intimacies, they were aspects of who you were, what your character was. If you were too compassionate too kill someone, there wasn't some external compassion force that stopped you, it was because you were too soft hearted to go through with it. Similarly, if you were challenged by a superior foe and you failed the Valor roll to backdown because you have a high rating in it, it was because your Vapor is a reflection of who you are; you're the type of person who finds it hard to admit inferiority.

In this particular case; you might usually have to succeed at a Conviction roll in order to act against an Intimacy, representing the fact that you're a hard enough man to make the hard decision to hurt someone/thing you love in order to achieve your goals.

What Cosmic Transdence of (Virtue) did was change how your character's personality functioned.

Someone with Cosmic Transcendence of Valor never backs down, and never succumbs to fear. It's impossible for them. They auto-pass all Valor rolls. Even if they have an Intimac of Fear towards someone that would usually penalise a Valor roll, with five auto-successes they're always going to pass it. Their character has changed so that they can always overcome any fear they have.

Similarly; someone with Cosmic Transcendence of Conviction. They may love someone very much and have the Intimacy to prove it. However, if it comes down to a choice between achieving their goals and sacrificing what they love, they're now a person who always make the sacrifice, as rey auto-pass Conviction rolls with five successes.

It's the same with Temperance. You may love wine, genuinely l love it, but when your friend tries to persuade you to stay for one more glass after you'be decided to go home, the Infernal with Cosmic Transcendence of Temperance will always remember they have to go to work the next day and decide to go home,

More seriously, Cosmic Transcendence of Compassion is a special case because of SWLiHN's unique relationship with Compassion. In the abstract, she perceives societies and institutions rather than individuals, as being where value resides by default so for her Compassion is about the former not the later. She does not care about individuals she doesn't know at all. As a result, while the other versions of the Charm just make you extraordinary paragons of that virtue, the Compassion version also changes your definition of Compassion/what you're capable of empathising with in the abstract.

The Cosmic Transcendenxe charms weren't about resisting external influence: they were about massively strengthening some aspects of your self in relation to other parts. That might allow you to shrung off many forms of external influences that would try to play on other aspects of your character , and much better at doing things associated with the strengthened aspect.

In some ways they significantly reduced self-control. If you challenge an Infernal with Cosmic Transcendence of Valor it's literally impossibly for them to refuse. The charm has changed their personality so they cannot do otherwise. If you forced an Infernal with Cosmic Transcendence of Conviction into a trolley proble scenario where they have to choose between killing their beloved child or failing their objectives they would also choose to for their child to die, unless raising that child was their wider objective.
 
Added Code of Honor to Lorgar and Dharok. For anyone wondering the L and D next to the name of the merit are so that the Tally program will read them properly, it does not read repeated lines in plans.
 
I mostly stuck with Conviction and interpreted that effect as the rest do not really apply in the new system but let me sleep on this.

Compassion rather than Conviction?

Basically, I'd reccomend that it allows an Infernal to do what it currently does but also let them temporarily disregard an Intimacy if it would conflict with a Quest that they've taken on, so other people can't leverage it for social attacks, etc, perhaps with the downside that it's impossible to not work towards that Quest for the rest of the strategic turn, or similar. That way it does what your new name for the charm is, it allows the Infernal to Transcendence their own self to dedicate themselves to an objective.

Added Code of Honor to Lorgar and Dharok. For anyone wondering the L and D next to the name of the merit are so that the Tally program will read them properly, it does not read repeated lines in plans.

We should probably a table a decision on Cosmic Transcendence of Self until Zyarc decides, I do think we should do something about the risk of being hit with blackmail from The Shard of Winter using his family's souls.
 
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We should probably a table a decision on Cosmic Transcendence of Self until Zyarc decides, I do think we should do something about the risk of being hit with blackmail from The Shard of Winter using his family's souls.

The system allows for spending a willpower to react to natural social influences with a punch to the face, intimacy or no. Fan will be sorry about it later, but blackmail is not mind control and we have Shaping Defense to deal with Unnatural Mental Influence just like any other magic that tries to change us against our will.
 
The system allows for spending a willpower to react to natural social influences with a punch to the face, intimacy or no. Fan will be sorry about it later, but blackmail is not mind control and we have Shaping Defense to deal with Unnatural Mental Influence just like any other magic that tries to change us against our will.

Not all UMI is Shaping though. Most isn't. A Shaping defence stops an enemy turning you into a frog, but it doesn't stop them mind controlling you, or, more prosaically making an irresistible social attack whose words are backed by nuclear weapons motes of essence leveraging an Intimacy.

Blackmail backed by the right charms can be mind control, as we're dealing with something that's high end celestial exalted grade.
 
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Not all UMI is Shaping though. Most isn't. A Shaping defence stops an enemy turning you into a frog, but it doesn't stop them mind controlling you, or, more prosaically making an irresistible social attack whose words are backed by nuclear weapons motes of essence leveraging an Intimacy.

Blackmail backed by the right charms can be mind control, as we're dealing with something that's high end celestial exalted grade.

I mean...

Whenever the character is the subject of any supernatural power that seeks to transform, infect, taint, transport, or control her body or spirit, she may reflexively spend 1 Essence or 1 Willpower and roll Willpower against difficulty 7. Success undoes the effect before it can finish affecting the Infernal, protecting her completely, and immunizes her against repeated attempts to exert the same sort of influence for the rest of the scene.

That sure sounds like something that seeks to control our body and spirit.
 
You could easily have a charm like 'When making a social attack leveraging someone's intimacy to a dead loved one, spend one essence to make the attack perfect and count as unnatural mental influence.' That's the kind of social charm the second circle of a Onceborn might have.

I mean...

Whenever the character is the subject of any supernatural power that seeks to transform, infect, taint, transport, or control her body or spirit, she may reflexively spend 1 Essence or 1 Willpower and roll Willpower against difficulty 7. Success undoes the effect before it can finish affecting the Infernal, protecting her completely, and immunizes her against repeated attempts to exert the same sort of influence for the rest of the scene.

That sure sounds like something that seeks to control our body and spirit.

Neither body nor spirit is targetted by a UMI social attack persuading him to surrender himself in return for releasing the souls of Fan's dead wife and child. His mind is, but his mind his neither his body nor his spirit. It doesn't make him a puppet or transform him directly. It makes him decide to do something.

If anti-shaping charms did function, there would be no reason for social defence charms to exist. They clearly do through.
 
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You could easily have a charm like 'When making a social attack leveraging someone's intimacy to a dead loved one, spend one essence to make the attack perfect and count as unnatural mental influence'.



Neither body nor spirit is targetted by a UMI social attack persuading him to surrender himself in return for releasing the souls of Fan's dead wife and child. His mind is, but his mind his neither his body nor his spirit. It doesn't make him a puppet or transform him directly. It makes him decide to do something.

If anti-shaping charms did function, there would be no reason for social defence charms to exist. They clearly do through.

Charms that protect against just UMI tend to be a lot cheater than just anti-shaping ones. Also even granting the concern Lorgar and Dharok can both counter-spell with True Faith
 
The greater good of She Who Lives in Her Name, for example, is "All Things In Their Place".

SWLiHN is clearly a talented min-maxed, given she's also taken on the responsibility for deciding what places things should be in…

Fair enough, grabbing this since other people do have a means to see magic.

What's your thought about Lorgar grabbing Mind of Steel. I went with Compelling Voice just in case we needed to talk some spirits around if we went for the mercy kill plan, on the grounds that better. True Faith and Mind Shields he's already defended.

On the other hand, Compelling Voice sounds a bit too close to mind control which we know Lorgar doesn't like, and his Torment means that in the unlikely event the Shard of Winter does get to him he'll be particularly hard hit.
 
Made some edits and clarifications to the charm. Got it fixed now.

So if you still want to pick it, choose a Greater Good.

You can only switch it offscreen by spending 2 Willpower.
 
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