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Echoes of Creation (30k/Exalted)

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DragonParadox said:
I do not think it is wise for even Infernals to try to eat energy fields larger than their heads and I think a planet counts, not least because we are not sure what state it is in at the moment. It used to be dead... but not so dead that it could not speak to us and teach us magic, the Mask is trying to make it undead, but has not managed it yet.
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The thing is, charms are absolute effects. If they say we can do something we can. We've been told before, I think, that charms don't have undocumented 'features'. This is the same principle as SPoF granted Regeneration not giving people cancer, just writ large.

The reason I think it would work is that we've been told that Fan's oath to 'revive' the Worldsoul has been completed.

Also, Fan is a nascent world himself, I'm not sure that the worldsoul is actually larger than his head.

DragonParadox said:
As for Maleable spirit changing the type of a spirit is DC 10. That is really long odds when the other side has to beat a DC of 4 (Thalessa's Essence x2).
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DC 10, but with Iron Resolve she can get two free successes. And things like the ghosts probably don't have much in the way of Gnosis.
 
DragonParadox said:
We have to beat the Shard of Winters which is on the high end of Second Circle Daemons, that is to say on the high end of Celestial Exalted. We are just Essence 2... but then again there is four of us and one of him. Action economy is Essence all of its own, if we can figure out how to use it .
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The problem is that he has a force of ghosts with DAOT gear. Which is seriously hardcore.
 
*name* said:
so who do we have to beat up again and how can we do so?
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An army of ghosts in DAoT power armour and two Hekatoncheires plus the Shard of Winter, probably.

Or in my alternate plan, we jump into the Umbra and mercy 'kill' the World Soul so his plan fails.

DragonParadox said:
We have to beat the Shard of Winters which is on the high end of Second Circle Daemons, that is to say on the high end of Celestial Exalted. We are just Essence 2... but then again there is four of us and one of him. Action economy is Essence all of its own, if we can figure out how to use it .
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There's a reason I want Thaallas to get double Extra Speed and her multi-attack mythos power.
 
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In the process of the upcoming planning, remember the two key flaws of the Mask of Winters. Larquen Quen was described as "haughty and flamboyant". As a Deathlord, as a ghost, he needed those passion plays, the melodrama, to maintain motivation. One would presume that this trait was maintained even after his ascension to Onceborn status. He loves excitement so much that he is even willing to sabotage his own plans, allow potential, crucial flaws, just to enjoy the drama that he so craves.

The other flaw is his hunger, his unrelenting pursuit of glory.
 
@Yzarc, a question before I finalise my proposal, in the Wound where we're going, is the Umbra separate from the material world? If we wanted, for example, to go and find the Worldsoul while it's rising from the dead so we could directly interact with it, could we do that without buying Umbral Passage + Hand from Beyond?

DragonParadox said:
Hmm... if we could have Fan cast SSC on the opposing Gnosis roll that might just work. Do all the Ghosts count as one spirit though?
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They probably don't - but this is probably something you do after you've restrained or defeated a bunch of the ghosts.

By for example, 'killing' them with Ultimate Darkness Internalisation active and capturing them in Fan's anima:

When a target is killed, a spirit slaying charm is required for immortals, the Infernal can instead imprison those that they kill in their Anima or their inner world if they have it. Any being killed in such a manner is functionally dead and now a part of the Infernal's Anima or Inner World. They cannot escape and only by someone completely altering them, say by a Sorcerous ritual, or if the Infernal allows it, can they escape. Otherwise, they are completely at the mercy of the Infernal and cannot harm the Infernal in any way shape or form and can only die when the Infernal dies.​

After engagements in which we make sure to have Fan perform the final blow, he'll accumulate ghosts and possibly corrupted spirits (fragments of the world soul) captured in his anima. At this point they can only escape if 'someone' completely alters them, or if the Infernal lets them escape.

That means that other 'someones' can affect captured entity (presumably with Fan's permission). It's at that point that Thalassa performs her spiritual surgery and releases the spirit from bondage, transforming the ghost into a spirit, with, as you say Fan helping with Shadow Spite Curse. If it works, Fan can then release the ex-ghost*, and if it fails he just shrugs and moves on.

What this thought experiment does reveal is that the use of Malleable Spirit and Release from Combat is something that's likely to happen after combat. The issue returns that it takes six hours to switch out Gifts so we'd need to be confident that we'd have chance to switch back. On the other hand, we can just keep captured ghosts and spirits on ice until we have time.

* Or, in extremis, we could even try this on the world soul itself, although we'd probably want to perform Sorcery to boost Thalassa's Gift.

Edit: Hell, I'm getting Spirit Ward, on the assumption that it works on ghosts, as they are spirits of the Dark Umbra for the Werewolf ruleset. A reduction of every spirit within a hundred feet's dice pools for every success rolled is amazing, particularly as the exclusion of totem and caern spirits should translate to excluding machine spirits. That doesn't just help Thalassa, it helps the entire group.
 
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Alratan said:
@Yzarc, a question before I finalise my proposal, in the Wound where we're going, is the Umbra separate from the material world? If we wanted, for example, to go and find the Worldsoul while it's rising from the dead so we could directly interact with it, could we do that without buying Umbral Passage + Hand from Beyond?
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It is seperate. But You do nor need a specific charm or ability to travel to the Umbra in this case. Normally you do but in this case, you can directly walk in via the Wound.

Same for interactions.
 
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Yzarc said:
It is seperate. But You do nor need a specific charm or ability to travel to the Umbra in this case. Normally you do but in this case, you can directly walk in via the Wound.

Same for interactions.
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Given this answer I got rid of the step sideways mutations and gave Thalessa two gifts that she can use in the fight and two that will serve her well going forward.

[X] Plan Life, Death and Utility
-[X] Fan
--[X] Factual Determination Analysis (8 XP)
--[X] COSMIC TRANSCENDENCE OF WILL (8 XP): The Greatest Good for the Greatest Number
- [X] Lorgar
--[X] Mind of Steel (10 XP)
--[X] L: Code of Honor (6 XP)
--[X] Bank 3 XP
-[X] Dharok
--[X] D: Code of Honor (6 XP)
--[X] Bank 6 XP
-[X] Thalasssa
--[X] Mythos Powers (10 XP each)
---[X] Death of a Thousand Cuts
---[X] Invisible Means Undodgeable
---[X] Supernatural Sensitivity
---[X] Race Against the Clock
---[X] Hammerspace
---[X] Instant Diagnosis
---[X] The Sleepless
--[X] Gifts
---[X] Malleable Spirit (10 XP)
---[X] Release from Bondage (12XP)
---[X] Spirit Ward (8 XP)
---[X] Iron Resolve (2 XP)
---[X]Ghost Touched (6 HP)
---[X] Preternatural Awareness (8 XP)
---[X] Find the Prize (4 XP)
---[X] Mind Partition (4 XP)
---[X] Apecraft's Blessings (2 XP)
---[X] Gaia The Machine God's Toolbox (6 XP)
--[X] Mutations
--- [X] Double Extra Speed (18 XP)
--[X] Psychic powers
--- [X] Clairvoyance 5 (20 XP)

Reasoning for the changes
  1. Ghost Touched is just great when fighting ghosts, they have to eat a penalty as if they had been cursed
  2. Preternatural Awareness is Off Brand Sidereal Bullshit, it eats an opponent's dice for a scene and Crucially it works on groups
  3. Eyes of Ignorance so we do can get lore out of prisoners in the mid to long term [Not for the battle]
  4. Finally Chaos is still a thing, Exorcism is just generally good for someone who cannot herself get the True Faith Merit. It is something you do not use often, but when you need it you really need it which makes it perfect for the party 'wizard' [Not for the Battle]
 
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Yzarc said:
Will have to disallow this as a Machine Spirit woukld not realistically offer this. It does not come under the preview of a Machine spirit or the Machine God.
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Reasonable, changed it to Eyes of Ignorance so we can steal the information out of people's heads not one question at a time, but whole fields of knowledge. I imagine using this on say an Eldar Wraithsinger would have... fun applications. Also closer to hand if we do capture some of those ghosts, but they are not feeling cooperative we can still get some of that DAoT lore.
 
DragonParadox said:
Reasonable, changed it to Eyes of Ignorance so we can steal the information out of people's heads not one question at a time, but whole fields of knowledge. I imagine using this on say an Eldar Wraithsinger would have... fun applications. Also closer to hand if we do capture some of those ghosts, but they are not feeling cooperative we can still get some of that DAoT lore.
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That leaves 20 XP. If you're not getting Clairvoyance to help find the location of the Ghost Terraforming Engines, I'd add Find the Prize and Sense of the Prey.

For the rest of the XP, I'd then throw in Mind Partition as it could just be very useful.
 
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Alratan said:
That leaves 20 XP. If you're not getting Clairvoyance to help find the location of the Ghost Engines, I'd add Find the Prize and Sense of the Prey.

For the rest of the XP, I'd then throw in Mind Partition as it could just be very useful.
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Do we need Clairvoyance/Gifts for that? Seems like it would be pretty obvious, I mean they are giant engines that alter the very structure of the planet on a spiritual level. Pumping out all that ghost essence cannot be subtle to anything that can see spiritual/magical energies.
 
DragonParadox said:
Do we need Clairvoyance/Gifts for that? Seems like it would be pretty obvious, I mean they are giant engines that alter the very structure of the planet on a spiritual level. Pumping out all that ghost essence cannot be subtle to anything that can see spiritual/magical energies.
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My interpretation is different. Consider this:

Yzarc said:
You could venture into its depths, locate a good place to dream up the ancient terraforming machines' spectral counterparts, and harness their power. By activating these ghostly constructs, you could begin to restore the planet's physical integrity, countering the Shard's corruptive influence.
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The engines don't exist at the moment; they're not being used so we cannot use that to find them. We need to find the location in the Deep Umbra that reflects the planet's memory of the terraforming machines, do something to make them a bit more real; if still ghostly; and have Thalassa use them.

Find the Prize is to identity that 'good place'.
 
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Alratan said:
My interpretation is different. Consider this:



The engines don't exist at the moment; they're not being used so we cannot use that to find them. We need to find the location in the Deep Umbra that reflects the planet's memory of the terraforming machines, do something to make them a bit more real; if still ghostly; and have Thalassa use them.

Find the Prize is to identity that 'good place'.
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Hmm... fair enough, gave her Clairvoyance 5 since that does not take up a slot, she can just use it and it gives her something beside Mind shields to do with the Warp.
 
Looking at Spirit Ward vs Preternatural Awareness, mechanically they do very similar things, subtract your successes from other people's dice, but in a subtly different way that may be relevant and importantly with different dice pools

Preternatural Awareness
  • Is a mental roll (Perception+Dodge) which is good since we want her working on those machines so mental primary is something we would want for other reasons
  • Works on the character by letting them dodge incoming attack, if say the Shard of Winters has a shaping defense that should not do anything since they are not the subject of the gift, they would have to spend Essence for a Perfect Attack or just deal with the -8 dice on average, with Iron Resolve and willpower.
  • Only applies to Thalessa herself, so no one else would benefit from the reduction in enemy dice

Spirit Ward
  • Is a social roll (Manipulation+Rituals) which is not great if we are planning to go mental primary physical secondary (something I think we should do to be able to use the exoskeleton)
  • Works on the opposing spirits which means the Shard of Winters can probably counter it when working on himself
  • Applies to every spirit in a 100 yards which would also help Fan and Lorgar, though the kinds of weapons they would be using have, to put it lightly more than 100 yards in radius
All that is to say I kind of want to dump Spirit Ward from the load-out for something more directly applicable, preferably something that does not use Essence since her pool is not the best.
 
DragonParadox said:
Hmm... fair enough, gave her Clairvoyance 5 since that does not take up a slot, she can just use it and it gives her something beside Mind shields to do with the Warp.
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Just looking at the rest of the list, although I really see the value in Eyes of Ignorance in the long run, for now Lorgar has Telepathy 5.

In the immediate term I'd be very tempted to swap that out for some other Gifts that might be immediately useful in this crisis.

I'd probably go with

Find the Prize to give us clues to help with Clairvoyance.
Mind Partition. Travelling in White Wolf, is, IIRC, an extended roll. With this gift, I think, part of Thalassa can be walking along, part of her can be keeping an eye on her surroundings, and another part of her can be working on designing a new archeotech implant in the background, I think.
Apecraft's Blessings. I'm assuming the memories of Terraforming Engines count as manmade, and we could probably use every DC reducer we can get when using them.

I was very tempted by Budget Approval Process as it's potentially very useful in combat, but it didn't feel like a good fit.
 
DragonParadox said:
All that is to say I kind of want to dump Spirit Ward from the load-out for something more directly applicable, preferably something that does not use Essence since her pool is not the best.
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Spirit Ward applies to all rolls with all pools, including their defences and their ability to make other contested rolls, not just their ability to attack.

For example, it makes things like Malleable Spirit much more likely to work by reducing their Gnosis pool and it makes it easier to hit their morale by reducing their Willpower pool, etc.

It's also something that we can use Iron Resolve on, given the merit we have that means if we spend a Willpowrr for an extra success on a non-trivial roll it's refunded if we succeed. A guaranteed two dice reduction in all nearby spirits' pools is well worth a point of Essence, even if we roll no extra successes due to having low socials.

As for range, it's a factor, but as we saw against the ghosts last time our big issue isn't being shot from range it's being dogpiled in melee while outnumbered.
 
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Alratan said:
Spirit Ward applies to all rolls with all pools, including their defences and their ability to make other contested rolls, not just their ability to attack.

For example, it makes things like Malleable Spirit much more likely to work by reducing their Gnosis pool and it makes it easier to hit their morale by reducing their Willpower pool, etc.

It's also something that we can use Iron Resolve on. Guaranteed two dice reduction in all nearby spirits' pools is well worth a point of Essence, even if we roll no extra successes.
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Keep in mind Iron Resolve only works once per scene (the first time you use willpower) so you can either take away two of their dice or you can roll two successes on Maleable Spirit instead of one with willpower. That said fair enough, just being able to degrade their gnosis pool is valuable enough to keep.
 
DragonParadox said:
Keep in mind Iron Resolve only works once per scene (the first time you use willpower) so you can either take away two of their dice or you can roll two successes on Maleable Spirit instead of one with willpower. That said fair enough, just being able to degrade their gnosis pool is valuable enough to keep.
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That's true. Even without Iron Resolve being able to take one from all their pools is a noticeable impact. Particularly with the way superhuman multipliers from equipment work.

I'd still switch out Eyes of Ignorance for now though.
 
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[X] Plan Life, Death and Utility

The one thing I'm still questioning is Exorcism, as we have Lorgar and Dharok in the party. We may want to optimise for this conflict more.

For example, if we're going to be Terraforming, Gaia The Machine God's Toolbox might be very useful narratively.
 
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Alratan said:
[X] Plan Life, Death and Utility

The one thing I'm still questioning is Exorcism, as we have Lorgar and Dharok in the party. We may want to optimise for this conflict more.

For example, if we're going to be Terraforming, Gaia The Machine God's Toolbox might be very useful narratively.
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That feels a bit too vague for how the mechanics work in this quest. It is basically Apecraft's blessings with less direction for the GM on how it works.
 
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