East Africa 1930: An ORBAT Quest

Oh I wasn't saying we should do it right now, no expense spared. Was just saying that there are merits to a rifle capable of firing the caliber.
Yeah, I'm in agreement if we can find the time and our industry is up to it. It'd be simple for logistics and should handle most of what we need; I don't think much can withstand >20 mm RHAe from the sides.
Why would it be produced to low tolerances? And besides, revolvers by their very nature can be a bit more loose on gas tolerances than any other type of firearm, considering most have a small open air gap between where the cylinder lines up with the barrel anyway.
Because it's meant to be a cheaper weapon for the <500 officers we have than a carbine'd Type 38 rifle or a SMG for the assault troops.
That open gap is the issue - you've got gas at ~250 MPa venting a few inches from fleshy bits. You can get around it by very precisely machining the revolver cylinder to not leave a gap or having a sliding bushing that acts as a gas seal, but that's expensive.
I have an ingenuous idea, make the FT-17 even more cramped and uncomfortable by cramming in something like a 57mm or 75mm in there. The FT-75 BS was real and would totally work.

Joking aside, the FT-17 would actually be the perfect starting vehicle for our future armoured core, dunno how I slept on it till now.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

But, yeah, it's basically perfect IMO. Widely exported, being replaced by newer models so armies are scrapping theirs over the next few years, small and cheap, but modern in layout.
As such, it is my belief that the Canon de 75 modèle 1897 is literally the perfect weapon for our army.
this is blasphemy against the 50 mm Type 89 grenade discharger, the most adorable organic fire support
 
If we have the resources and time to re-gun/re-turret/build a whole new tank from pieces supplied by 3 different counties, depending on how long it takes us to get to tanks it might be worth looking at the L-60 when it hits the international market in a few years.

It's got a few upsides compared to the 6-tonner AFAICT, such as welded instead of riveted armor, periscopes instead of direct vision slits, better speed, longer range.

Flip side is that it's a bit heavier, got less armor, and the early models have a 20mm autocannon instead of anything larger. Though that can be changed if we're willing to re-gun like I said.

Suppose there's also the fact that it's a tank designed in Sweden when we're going to be operating it in Africa, so there might be some temperature issues. OTOH supposedly the 6-tonner had overheating problems too.

It's definitely on the "see what's good on the market right now" side of things rather than "see what's cheap we can buy a ton of." Call me skeptical of sinking a ton of money buying a bunch of old WW1 tanks though. At the very least if we're buying tanks I'd like to at least get one with a 3 person crew to avoid the commander-gunner combination problems.
 
If we have the resources and time to re-gun/re-turret/build a whole new tank from pieces supplied by 3 different counties, depending on how long it takes us to get to tanks it might be worth looking at the L-60 when it hits the international market in a few years.

It's got a few upsides compared to the 6-tonner AFAICT, such as welded instead of riveted armor, periscopes instead of direct vision slits, better speed, longer range.

Flip side is that it's a bit heavier, got less armor, and the early models have a 20mm autocannon instead of anything larger. Though that can be changed if we're willing to re-gun like I said.

Suppose there's also the fact that it's a tank designed in Sweden when we're going to be operating it in Africa, so there might be some temperature issues. OTOH supposedly the 6-tonner had overheating problems too.

It's definitely on the "see what's good on the market right now" side of things rather than "see what's cheap we can buy a ton of." Call me skeptical of sinking a ton of money buying a bunch of old WW1 tanks though. At the very least if we're buying tanks I'd like to at least get one with a 3 person crew to avoid the commander-gunner combination problems.
My dream tank is to take an L-60's turret (the 37 mm armed one, not the 20 mm), stick it on a locally produced hull (because we're steel producers, dammit! Ignore that this may not be feasible) and give it a Japanese engine because AIUI the air-cooled diesels ran fine in the tropics and sipped fuel, which are things we want. Diesel fuel is also non-flammable, which allows for cheeky things like putting fuel tanks outside the armour and using them as ballistic protection - a decent first-order approximation for projectile movement through dense fluids is a momentum balance, and based on that and some math I did ages ago, you get around a 10% drop in velocity after moving through one projectile-length of diesel fuel. That's significant when dealing with things like HMGs and their small bullets.

The "cheap WWI tanks" isn't to buy a ton of them, it's to buy, like, four, for non combat purposes. A not-insignificant fraction of our eventual tank fleet will be forced to stay behind to train crews in. However, those tanks themselves do not have to be particularly good vehicles if you're desperate - the Germans were doing driver training with wood-fuelled Panzer Is until the end of the war, for example. We'll probably also want to do field maneuvers with our tanks to see what problems they encounter while operating in Reewiin's interior, and that's both something we'll want to do early and also probably with enough intensity that some of the tanks might be written off afterwards, so sending some FTs on a little adventure is about as useful as sending whatever the best tank in the world in 1933 is (BT-5?) on the same trip.
 
Like I said earlier in the thread, a legitimate alternative because of our adversaries and the terrain is a armored car. Possibly even one we design to take into consideration our needs.
 
Like I said earlier in the thread, a legitimate alternative because of our adversaries and the terrain is a armored car. Possibly even one we design to take into consideration our needs.
I agree, we should import armoured cars. Specifically the Type 92 armoured car from our beneficiaries in Tokyo. It even comes with that French 13.2mm machine gun that is all the rage with our government.

Here a photo of it for reference.



Now you may say that's not an armoured car but a tank(ette) but to that I say, it's literal name is sōkōsha which translates to armoured car.
 
Or we could make a gas seal revolver like the Nagant M1895.
That would be a machined cam system in the revolver.

Although I am gonna question why it's assumed officers would be the ones getting the revolver? A LOT of research was done by the US on the applicability of pistols in warfare. As a sidearm for larger weapons (MGs, AT weapons, and other speacialist armaments) they actually kind of suck except if you need extreme compactness and/or a non-threatening stance. It was found that with the equivalent amount of barebones training, a lightweight carbine was far more effective a weapon as a sidearm, which is where the M1 carbine came from.
 
On the topic of tanks and anti-tank guns, I had some tangential thoughts. Firstly, I touched on it a bit, but we really should try and do some trials to see what unique requirements Reewiinite tank doctrine has. If we're thinking of operating far from supply depots, for example, then enlarged fuel tanks and stowage bins could keep us fighting for longer. If we're concerned about operational mobility of other arms, tow hitches for artillery or handholds for infantry could help. If Reewiin has areas where they'd be useful, hedgecutters or dozer blades could be added on at the factory. If heat's an issue, we could add sun shielding and/or forced air cooling of the crew compartment.

Additionally, so far the discussion's focused on turreted vehicles, but casemates are an option. Presumably, if we do end up getting tanks, we'll be looking at a vehicle around 8-10 tons, limiting us to around a 37 mm gun. This is suboptimal for throwing a big HE shell, and the anti tank performance will be lacking against some opponents at the end of the decade. One solution to this would be for some fraction of our tank force to be procured without turrets, and instead have a casemate-mounted gun (roughly the size of the mle 1897 or equivalent). This saves a good amount of weight that can be redistributed to armour, removes one of the costlier components (the turret ring rollers and roller path), and brings a much larger gun to the fight. It's also a relatively simple conversion (field expedient versions were sometimes done by maintenance depot engineers irl). As examples of this kind of thing, take a look at these:
To start with, the Type 5 Ho-Ru, a latewar prototype with admittedly a 47 mm AT gun, but it uses a Ha-Go for the base so it's relevant and it is also adorable:

There's also the British Alecto:

The Soviets designed a similar vehicle during the war based on a heavily modified T-70, the SU-74 and SU-76D:

Romania has the TACAM T-60:

And if you're willing to go postwar for the gun but use an old chassis, there's the CATI 90:

I'm ignoring the fairly well-known German and Italian casemate vehicles because, well, they're so well-known. A Marder is a Marder, a Semovente da 75 is a Semovente. I also cut out some things that would be a pain to make like the Maresal's sloping sides or provided absolutely no protection like the M5 GMC.

Out of the above, I personally prefer the aesthetics and layout of the Ho-Ru and SU-76D; both would, however, require us holding a design competition.
 
The Environments of Reewiin

The Environments of Reewiin

Further to some discussion in the discord channel on Wordsmiths (join us there for Charlie_Zulu and his horrifying grenades), it might be useful to have a general picture of the environments of Reewiin. This is all information that you would know just from living in the country.

The Cities

Unsurprisingly, much of the population is concentrated in the urban areas of Buur Gaabo and Kismayo. These are old cities, filled with higgedly-piggedly old buildings and without the grand boulevards of Europe and America. Architecture trends towards long and low-slung buildings, the tallest structure in Kismayo is a windpump. Many buildings have small windows and crenellated roofs, making them useful fortifications.

This is actually Mogadishu, 1930s, but Kismayo looks similar.

The Close Rural

Around the two major cities and along the Juba river are the farmlands of Reewiin, recently expanded by the establishment of strategic horse and donkey stocks. These areas are generally filled with many smallholdings, scattered trees and animals. Lines of sight look reasonably long, but various streambeds and wadis will allow small forces to close with each other easily, as was common in the bad old days of inter-Somali raiding before the establishment of the Republic of Reewiin.
CDN media
An Ogaden Tribesman, somewhere in Jubaland around the turn of the century.

The Bushlands

In common with much of Africa, Reewiin's interior is filled with sparse, low forest and bush. Most of the trees are species of hard-scrabbling Acacia or thorny Myrrh, with thick underbrush of grasses and smaller plants. The region is dotted with villages and also contains nomadic Somali and Oromo groups. This is an extremely difficult environment to operate in, with movement taking a long time and very short average lines of sight, in the order of a hundred meters, in most areas. European forces are likely to be unfamiliar with this sort of terrain.

Some sort of pointy thing, but look around and behind it at the terrain.

Bush Forests

Mount Marsabit itself, and a few other areas on the coastal Kenyan border, have dense enough vegetation to form actual forests more similar to those found in Kenya. These areas are haunted by wild animals such as elephant and zebra, and are more or less similar ecologically to the aforementioned bush except even denser and with less ground coverage. Settled population is basically zero, except for the mining settlements around Marsabit.

Ahmed, King of Marsabit, He could only climb hills backwards. Jomo Kenyatta gave him a personal protective detail. After he died of old age they weighed his tusks and determined that they weighed about 150lb each. Attempt to ignore him and look at the foliage again.

Turkana

The shores of Lake Turkana are, perhaps counterintuitively, some of the driest areas in Reewiin. Communities have been clustered against the lake itself since time immemorial, where they make use of the plentiful fishing for most of their dietary needs. The areas behind the lake are desertified grasslands and desert, with sparse vegetation and cut with deep ravines produced by infrequent rainfalls.

Overlooking Lake Turkana from somewhere near Mt. Sibiloi.
 
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I think we should focus on improving our infantry and cavalry with better personal weapons, grenades, crew served weapons such as lighter machine guns, mortars and gear. Since we do not have a motor industry or many roads any cars or tanks would require lots of maintenance.
 
An aside, but I found some neat pictures of how cavalry on horseback carry their light machine guns.

These first three are portage for a Hotchkiss M1909 Benét–Mercié LMG, c. 1918






A Madsen "bucket."


 
Rather curious as to how much of our forces we can make into mounted infantry, considering that we are unlikely to fix the infrastructure problem anytime soon.

Also, interesting photos.
 
Found another one. Portuguese cavalrymen with pack saddles for the Madsen machine-gun, complete with the tripod, spare barrels, etc.



US Army Vickers pack saddle:

 
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Given how in most of the relevant environments (cities, Jubba valley, bushlands, mountainous jungles) the sight lines are either very short or there are ample opportunities for infiltration to close range, could we replace the fancy, long-range sights of our Arisakas with a two-position flip sight that's simpler to operate and cheaper to manufacture, saving the complicated range-adjustable sight for section sharpshooters? Likewise, could we issue carbines more widely?

Regardless, it feels like we definitely want to include plenty of training with close-range tactics for Reewiin's unique environment.
I think we should focus on improving our infantry and cavalry with better personal weapons, grenades, crew served weapons such as lighter machine guns, mortars and gear. Since we do not have a motor industry or many roads any cars or tanks would require lots of maintenance.
We're making pretty good progress on this. We've got rifles that will take us into the next war (the only changes I personally feel we need is scaling up production and maybe some detail tweaks) and SMGs have been a topic of discussion; grenades are something we'll want to look at in the near future (it's possibly the next ordnance office project, although it would mean passing up some mid-'30s models); we've been working on domestic production of the Type 3 LMG for a while but can always increase it; mortars are another thing that is on the shortlist for ordnance board projects (as is regimental/divisional artillery); kit was already done a while ago. Tanks just came up because we were talking about artillery and anti-tank guns, which lead to tanks, and then it was something interesting to chat about while waiting for updates even though realistically it's not something we'd want to do for anything but training* until well into the latter half of the decade.

* I do think there's some benefit to, like, having a 2-4 cheap tanks so we can try and see what it's like to use them in Reewiin and our infantry can practice "run up to the tank and throw an incendiary grenade at it" before encountering one in combat, but that's not exactly the conventional use case.
 
We will definitely need to just buy some rifles - we want to add at least 14,000 troops in the next few years, most of them with rifles, and right now we're not making much over 1000 per year, but we should expand production too. Once we're up to strength they can go to the Carabineri and reserve stockpiles for a long time, and we can hopefully move some of that capacity to carbines easily enough.
 
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We will definitely need to just buy some rifles - we want to add at least 14,000 troops in the next few years, most of them with rifles, and right now we're not making much over 1000 per year, but we should probably expand production too. Once we're up to strength they can go to the Carabineri and reserve stockpiles for a long time, and we can hopefully move some of that capacity to carbines easily enough.
The Carabineri are already fully equipped with Arisakas, you bought some too, and started with some Type 30s which has helped.

Given that Japan is now buying Arisakas from you, it's unlikely that there are any more where they came from.
 
It's kind of funny that people are talking about making revolvers as a 'stopgap' (which are not actually simpler than automatics) and then cooking up some kind of gas-seal rifle-caliber monstrosity. Probably better off with an obrez at that point.

Or just issuing all officers carbines, and if this makes them feel unfashionable next to our snappily-dressed Japanese advisors, they can buy their own pistol from wherever out of their own money.

It is, because a scaled up rifle, even if it weighs in the area of 20 pounds, is still way, waaayyy more portable than a heavy machine gun with its carriage, ammunition, and the amount of crew needed to operate it. That being said:

We don't have to go for something in 75mm. Most countries during this time period in fact fielded something around 37mm, which while light by the time of hostilities, is definitely applicable to our situation. Though for this one I would say splurge and go for something around 40-57mm, as they stay relevant longer and have much better performance. We're kind of in the situation where, while we're poor as a country, we can't really be cheap either.
Edit:
On the topic of pistols; We're in the unique situation where we could design a revolver based around our rifle cartridge. It would not be pleasant to shoot for any person, but 6.5x50mm is a Semi-rimmed cartridge (which is a big help compared to rimless for extraction), and relatively tiny compared to other rifle calibers of the period. If push comes to shove, an overbuilt, 5-7 shot revolver with the option for a stocked carbine version is definitely something we could design.

So, this gets to force structure, with some confusion where some people are thinking one thing and others are thinking others.

Several people are assuming that anti-tank guns are a separate formation with their own specialised guns. This would be more flexible than dual-role field guns, but also require buying and supplying a bunch of AT guns.
Using a high-velocity field gun for both regimental artillery and heavy anti-tank work would be cheaper and logistically simpler, but tactically a bit awkward.
If buying dedicated AT guns, of course a 75mm would be massive overkill against current tanks. The 37mms wouldn't be effective against heavy tanks or medium tanks made after about 1941, but equally, Africa is exactly the kind of neglected secondary front where otherwise obsolete tanks go to die, so I dunno.


My proposal/expectation for the eventual army is something like this:

Regiment
Battalion
Company
Platoon
Squad
HMGs for AA & light ATGun-Mortar (70mm)MMGsGrenade LaunchersLMG
Field Guns (HV 75mm)AT RiflesHand Grenades (!)

This adds a battery of high-velocity field guns at the regimental level, for long-range artillery and heavy anti-tank.

The 70mm battalion guns seem to be a lot heavier than a medium mortar would be, without much more range, so I'm not sure about them.
But they're already in service and can be used for direct fire.
More of those and more MMGs would be good. Maybe also a battalion-level MMG platoon once there's enough? Would need the Type 3 factory crews to sober up first.

At the company level, adding an AT rifle section gives protection against armoured cars and light tanks without having to wait for the colonel to send some HMGs over. And in the absence of armour, I'm sure the troops can find all sorts of uses for a rifle that can blow straight through a brick wall.

The grenade launchers could as easily be light mortars at the company level, assuming there's a good one. Or rifle grenades instead, maybe. I'm not sure if any of those were much good.

The absence of actual hand grenades is a huge gap in the equipment. Apparently the Japanese ones were shit, aside from going in grenade dischargers. But there's always the Mills Bomb...

The descriptions of the terrain does sound like submachineguns would be a lot more useful than expected - a couple per squad could give assault elements a lot of bite. Sounds like a nightmare for armour, though.
 
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Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by Lonosic on Feb 22, 2024 at 2:23 AM, finished with 140 posts and 18 votes.

  • [X] Plan: Training Infrastructure
    -[X] Establish an Officer Academy - Our officers are currently trained in an ad-hoc fashion. The establishment of a proper Academy would allow us to educate more officers, and provide a centre for spreading doctrinal advances across the military by running a series of advanced courses and bringing able officers back as instructors. (12-Month Investment.)
    -[X] Establish an Infantry School - Our riflemen are currently trained in an ad-hoc fashion. The establishment of a proper School would allow us to drill our soldiers in more advanced tactics and provide a single baseline for all of our forces, so that officers can more easily assume command of troops they have not trained with. (12-Month Investment.)
    --[X] Optional: Request Japanese support for this program, improving impacts and benefiting from IJA institutional knowledge. (Reduces to 6-Month Investment.)
    --[X] Ask to de-emphasise aggression, discipline and bayonet training somewhat, as our troops are not ready for such rigors.


Pretty decisive.
 
My proposal/expectation for the eventual army is something like this:

Regiment
Battalion
Company
Platoon
Squad
HMGs for AA & light ATGun-Mortar (70mm)MMGsGrenade LaunchersLMG
Field Guns (HV 75mm)AT RiflesHand Grenades (!)

This adds a battery of high-velocity field guns at the regimental level, for long-range artillery and heavy anti-tank.

The 70mm battalion guns seem to be a lot heavier than a medium mortar would be, without much more range, so I'm not sure about them.
But they're already in service and can be used for direct fire.
More of those and more MMGs would be good.

At the company level, adding an AT rifle section gives troops protection against armoured cars and light tanks without having to wait for the colonel to send some HMGs over. And in the absence of armour, I'm sure the troops can find all sorts of uses for a rifle that can blow straight through a brick wall.

The grenade launchers could as easily be light mortars at the company level, assuming there's a good one. Or rifle grenades, maybe. I'm not sure if any of those were much good.

The absence of actual hand grenades is a huge gap in the equipment. Apparently the Japanese ones were shit, aside from going in grenade dischargers. But there's always the Mills Bomb...

The descriptions of the terrain does sound like submachineguns would be a lot more useful than expected - a couple per squad could give assault elements a lot of bite. Sounds like a nightmare for armour, though.
High-velocity 75 mm guns are a bit much for the regimental level, IMO, given our poor logistics. I think something like 75 mm pack howitzers or mountain guns would work well there, especially given the short engagement ranges we're looking at, and we already have them to train with.

The 13.2s are at the regiment level for the 2nd and 3rd, but the 1st Regiment (which is really just a battalion) has them as well. I think it'd be a good idea to have them at the battalion level for everything, since they're reasonably mobile and it lets use battalions as our maneuver unit.

I'm in agreement that a medium mortar is better than the 70s. Perhaps a split of 2 70s and 4 81s per battalion artillery section would work if we want to preserve direct fire capability? We need to buy a lot of new guns anyways so switching things up a little bit isn't a big deal, and the mortars are just... so much easier to handle, especially in rough terrain, that it makes me want to use them.

Company level AT rifles makes sense, and we could lump them in with the MMGs as a support platoon. However, it's one more thing to add to the list, so it might take a while.

The Japanese had a nice grenade discharger (especially when using the dedicated ammunition and not grenades), and they're light enough to fit comfortably at the platoon level. We currently have enough people in our platoons that shaving four people off each section to form a grenade discharger section would stay at reasonable squad sizes.

Sure, Mills bombs work. I wanted to try and delay things enough that when we hold a grenade competition the Czechs would submit the OUG vz. 34, because I think the impact fuze could be the basis for a specialized anti-tank grenade (take an OUG vz. 34, stick it on a satchel charge, lob at tank), but otherwise there's no harm in grabbing the French, British, or American options, as I understand it.
 
Field guns could be cumbersome, but something heavier than an MG seems necessary; either field guns or an actual AT gun.

Howitzers, AT guns, type 92s and mortars does seem like it would lead to a broad mix of ammunition and parts.

Guess it depends on whether the logistics issues are transport or complexity.
 
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