Mechanized is the future one we can't really afford right now buttt were also starting from scratch with horses too.
East Africa 1930: An ORBAT Quest
- Thread starter 4WheelSword
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
[X] Plan: Logistics today weapons tomorrow
- Location
- The Netherlands
It's true that motorized logistics is usually better than hores logistics. The problem that we have is that the area where we expect to find oil, will only start to have its own railroad being built in 1932. And considering the first part of the line is the easiest, there is a good chance we wont have time to get moterized logitics going before WW2 starts. There is also the fact that we might want to safe the oil we have for motorized inflantry. And we have local horeses that have addapted to the invironment that can traverse unimproved roads better than trucks.
Last edited:
- Location
- Buskerud, Norway
Seeing as nations such as germany had horse based logistics as well we really should not be that bothered with trying to rush motorisation. A Mixture of rail and horses would be far cheaper and not require us to set up a large industry.
We should rather focus our efforts at actually making our military able to survive the threats it will face.
We should rather focus our efforts at actually making our military able to survive the threats it will face.
Last edited:
What I meant was more using domestic sources instead of trying to use animals who might get diseased and all.
Vote closed
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
Army of Reewiin Order of Battle circa January 1930
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
Please note this includes some minor retcons compared to our previous text ORBAT but this one takes precedence.
Questions are welcome.
Army of Reewiin Order of Battle circa September 1930
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
The summer of 1930 saw a number of shakeups to the paper disposition of the Reewiin forces to prepare for future doctrinal changes.
Very interesting order of battle definitely needs some improvement to properly fight modern wars.
@4WheelSword
What did you use to make the order of battle
@4WheelSword
What did you use to make the order of battle
4WheelSword
The original N-body Problem
- Pronouns
- It/She/They
MS Paint
- Location
- an unseen void
- Pronouns
- Any
Safely between turns I can now present
Long Term Plan: Horse
Hello and welcome to Long Term Plan: Horse. Doing more with horses and other pack animals presents unique challenges to the Combined Defense Committee, but also presents opportunities to explore complements to mechanization that are less challenging to our nation's infrastructure and budget. It's part of the political promises we made to the government to explore, which has its own importance, and probably most significantly: it is the very essence of our job, acquiring new expertise that Reewiin has lacked but adapting it to our local circumstances with effective bureaucratic care.
However, such care is demanding on our resources and not as high-priority as our efforts with the Carabinieri or our general armament, and there's also setup times required for the herds. So my goal here is also to keep the opportunity costs low: no more than one of our points required per turn unless and until it's truly worth it to spend more, while exploring the option we committed to substantively.
To wit: once we get back an additional action point either through action point growth (unclear if or when it happens), winding down a continual investment (unlikely for a long while), or finishing setting up our new research team (still two/soon to be one turns away), I want to go down a path something like this:
Turn 1: Establish the veterinary office. Given the challenges of disease, logistics, and animal handling, I don't think any of this is worth it if we don't set this up.
Turn 2: Take Equine Acquisition: Donkeys & Mules. This takes marginally long to cook than the other acquisition option we want, so we want to get it going sooner. Donkeys in particular are massively less susceptible to AHS than any horse, though mules are no joke, and should be able to fill roles our cargo oxen cannot.
Turn 3: Equine Acquisition: Requisition Locally. This is the most viable option for survivable horses, and given that we're not doing a lot of equestrian competitions or aesthetic parades, I don't think we need the marginal advantages of the non-Borana breeds. It goes second because it can cook a little faster than Donkeys & Mules.
Turn 4: Via write-in or through new options opened up from building the veterinary office/research teams, we conduct research and analysis on the logistics needed to feed our animals in the field, or other implementation concerns.
Turn 5+: This may be needed to complete the first research, or start other research on doctrine, healthcare, etc, for the animals while waiting for our herds to grow and mature.
Turn 6+: With at least one piece of research completed and herds available, we should be able to implement active programs with animals to fulfill our mandate.
Long Term Plan: Horse
Hello and welcome to Long Term Plan: Horse. Doing more with horses and other pack animals presents unique challenges to the Combined Defense Committee, but also presents opportunities to explore complements to mechanization that are less challenging to our nation's infrastructure and budget. It's part of the political promises we made to the government to explore, which has its own importance, and probably most significantly: it is the very essence of our job, acquiring new expertise that Reewiin has lacked but adapting it to our local circumstances with effective bureaucratic care.
However, such care is demanding on our resources and not as high-priority as our efforts with the Carabinieri or our general armament, and there's also setup times required for the herds. So my goal here is also to keep the opportunity costs low: no more than one of our points required per turn unless and until it's truly worth it to spend more, while exploring the option we committed to substantively.
To wit: once we get back an additional action point either through action point growth (unclear if or when it happens), winding down a continual investment (unlikely for a long while), or finishing setting up our new research team (still two/soon to be one turns away), I want to go down a path something like this:
Turn 1: Establish the veterinary office. Given the challenges of disease, logistics, and animal handling, I don't think any of this is worth it if we don't set this up.
Turn 2: Take Equine Acquisition: Donkeys & Mules. This takes marginally long to cook than the other acquisition option we want, so we want to get it going sooner. Donkeys in particular are massively less susceptible to AHS than any horse, though mules are no joke, and should be able to fill roles our cargo oxen cannot.
Turn 3: Equine Acquisition: Requisition Locally. This is the most viable option for survivable horses, and given that we're not doing a lot of equestrian competitions or aesthetic parades, I don't think we need the marginal advantages of the non-Borana breeds. It goes second because it can cook a little faster than Donkeys & Mules.
Turn 4: Via write-in or through new options opened up from building the veterinary office/research teams, we conduct research and analysis on the logistics needed to feed our animals in the field, or other implementation concerns.
Turn 5+: This may be needed to complete the first research, or start other research on doctrine, healthcare, etc, for the animals while waiting for our herds to grow and mature.
Turn 6+: With at least one piece of research completed and herds available, we should be able to implement active programs with animals to fulfill our mandate.
I gave a funny not because I disagree, it's a good plan, but the introduce and name was amusing. It's like a slideshow with the word "horse" in all caps as the title page. I'm sold. 
Same. I saw that intro and burst out laughing.I gave a funny not because I disagree, it's a good plan, but the introduce and name was amusing. It's like a slideshow with the word "horse" in all caps as the title page. I'm sold.
Turn 3 Update: September 1930
Eukie
Powered by furious Canadian redheads
Project Development: July - September 1930
Ongoing Projects:
[X] Establish the Ordnance Office - Developing an arms industry from scratch will take time and effort. An Ordnance Office will allow us to delegate some of that work to specialists. (Constant Investment.)
[X] Establish the Analytical Research Team - This group will be tasked with drafting reports on external threats, internal dynamic shifts, and other non-standard areas of intelligence. (3 Months Remain) ☑☑☑◻
[X] Establish the Carabinieri Oversight Office - No one really keeps an eye on the paramilitary police force that keeps watch over the nation. If the force is to be reformed and re-established in a new role, then oversight is needed at the very least. (Constant Investment.)
[X] Information Review: Carabinieri - Determine the state, readiness, and mood of the Carabinieri. (Complete!) ☑
[X] Organisational Reform: Regional Headquarters - The Carabinieri currently has a national headquarters based in Bur Gaabo. Regional HQ units would enable better management of the various units and duties of the force. (6-Month Investment.) ◻◻
[X] Government Action: Commissioning Officers - The Carabinieri lacks the ability to operate in small units. The Government, via the Defence Council, will commission a number of junior officers and promote long-serving carabinieri officers to senior positions. Companies will be reorganised into operational 'platoons.' (6-Month Investment.) ◻◻
Kismayo-Turkana Line:
Progress, Kismayo-Marsabit: 22.5% (Est. completion June 1932)
Reports on Rifle Tests 1930
The rifle group acquired eighteen models of rifle considered potentially suitable as military weapons:
After significant deliberation, the Rifle Group has decided to recommend the Defence Council place orders for the Arisaka Type 38 and stocks of the improved Type 38 Arisaka spitzer round. While it does not offer the greatest possible increase in engagement ranges, it is the lightest of them, the most robust against dust, and requires no to minimal training for troops already familiar with the Type 30.
A dissenting minority wishes to instead recommend the Enfield P17 on the basis that it may be possible to acquire it for a significantly lower cost than new Type 38 rifles.
The Rifle Group tested a number of self-loading rifles as part of the review. None were considered acceptable for Reewiin's needs, but it is worth mentioning two nonetheless:
July 1930
International Headlines
Chicago: New flight endurance record established by Hunter brothers: 553 hours, 41 minutes, 30 seconds.
Crowborough: Renowned 'Sherlock Holmes' author Arthur Conan Doyle dead, plans to 'contact family from spirit world.'
Helsinki: 16,000 members of anti-communist Lapua movement march on Finnish capital, demanting anti-left-wing legislation.
Paris: France halts construction of new warships, pursues naval conference with Italy.
Rome: Italy agrees to French proposal: six month moratorium on warship construction.
Berlin: President Hindenburg issues emergency budget decree after German parliament votes against down budget. Entire parliament dissolved by emergency decree after demanding revocation of budget: budget restored by emergency decree.
Irpina: Over a thousand dead as earthquake strikes southern Italy.
Ottawa: Incumbent prime minister King defeated in election: R. B. Bennet new Canadian prime minister.
Changsha: Regional Chinese capital seized by communist rebels.
August 1930
International Headlines
Montreal: Airship R100 lands at Canadian airport, becoming fastest transatlantic airship: 78 hours, 51 minutes.
Marion: Mob abducts, kills, two black men awaiting trial from jail.
Addis Ababa: Gugsa Welle, widower of Ethiopian empress, executed for rebellion on orders of king Tafari Makonnen.
Hankow: Dozens of reds executed, hundred jailed, in crackdown on communism.
London: Frank Hawks sets new transatlantic flight speed record: 12 hours, 25 minutes, 3 seconds.
Hamilton: British Empire Games open in Canadian city.
Boleslawiec: Three dead, ten injured as communists, German nationalists, police clash in Poland.
Lima: President Augusto B. Leguía resigns following coup. General Manuel María Ponce Brousset assumes interim presidency, replaced by new president Luis Miguel Sánchez Cerro.
Geneva: League of Nations report condemns Britain for failure to defend Jews during Arab riots in Mandate for Palestine.
London: Italian divers discover SS Egypt wreck in English Channel: $5,000,000 in gold, silver onboard.
Exercises
The yearly national live fire exercises have been conducted in August, before the major planting for the Deyr rains begins. Results have been excellent, with the troops completing their twenty practice rounds more quickly and accurately than last year's averages. The artillery have achieved similarly pleasing results, scoring direct hits on all five targets provided. The artillery troops have praised their Japanese instructors' assistance.
September
International Headlines
Budapest: Thousands clash in riot between police and communists.
New York: Aviators Costes, Bellonte complete non-stop flight between Paris and New York.
Buenos Aires: President Hipólito Yrigoyen resigns after a week of demonstrations in the Argentine capital. Army troops enter presidential palace. General José Félix Uriburu recognised by supreme court as provisional president, dissolves congress, declares country besieged by leftists.
Trieste: Four Yugoslavs arrested, executed, for attempted assassination of Italian prime minister Mussolini.
Berlin: Communists, Nationalist Socialists clash on eve of parliamentary elections. Social Democratic party retains majority; Nationalist Socialist party second largest party in Germany. Fifteen thousand communists stage protest against Nationalist Socialist party.
Moscow: Soviets execute 48 for conspiracy to create food panic and overthrow the government.
Leipzig: During trial of army officers, Nationalist Socialist party leader Adolf Hitler vows no coup by his party, plan to replace constitution if elected.
Panvel: Fifteen dead in clash between Indian protesters and police.
Huntsville: Alabama national guard uses gas against white mob attempting to storm prison holding black murder suspect.
Vienna: President appoints Carl Vaugoin chancellor of Austria.
Havana: Students, police clash in protest against Cuban president Gerardo Machado. One student killed.
The Retreat from Addis Ababa
The rebellion in Ethiopia is not over simply because the largest congregation of rebels has been shattered. While Gugsa Welle was captured and most of his most loyal companions slaughtered in Addis Ababa, many of those fleeing north have been raiding as they go. Fighting is rumoured to be ongoing across the country's north even after several months. Both towns loyal to both Gugsa Welle and ones supporting Emperor Haile Sellasie have been put to the torch. It is presumed the uncrowned Emperor will launch a crackdown soon, but as yet, little has been heard.
As for Ras Gugsa Welle, he was publicly executed on the 5th of August, 1931. Thus ended the short 'reign' of Emperor Tewderos III.
From the House of Representatives
A message has been delivered to the Defence Council after a question was raised on the floor of the House. The Ethiopian military has defeated the rebels assaulting the Capital, and they did it with two things unseen in East Africa before: Aeroplanes and Tanks.
The question put before the House was this; War has changed, and we must change with it. Is Reewiin currently prepared to face such weapons? If not, what does the Defence Council intend to correct these matters?
What is the Defence Council's answer to the House?
[ ] Reewiins army is perfectly capable of handling these weapons with well-trained artillery and riflemen.
[ ] The Defence Council will assess anti-armour and anti-air weapons as soon as possible (Industry and Logistics - Armaments will now include AT and AA options.)
[ ] The Defence Council will be revisiting the Long Term Plan in the new year to respond to this change in the strategic landscape (January 1931 will include a Long Term revote.)
[ ] The Defence Council has plans for the future, but the situation is not yet right for introducing these elements.
Ongoing Projects:
[X] Establish the Ordnance Office - Developing an arms industry from scratch will take time and effort. An Ordnance Office will allow us to delegate some of that work to specialists. (Constant Investment.)
[X] Establish the Analytical Research Team - This group will be tasked with drafting reports on external threats, internal dynamic shifts, and other non-standard areas of intelligence. (3 Months Remain) ☑☑☑◻
[X] Establish the Carabinieri Oversight Office - No one really keeps an eye on the paramilitary police force that keeps watch over the nation. If the force is to be reformed and re-established in a new role, then oversight is needed at the very least. (Constant Investment.)
[X] Information Review: Carabinieri - Determine the state, readiness, and mood of the Carabinieri. (Complete!) ☑
[X] Organisational Reform: Regional Headquarters - The Carabinieri currently has a national headquarters based in Bur Gaabo. Regional HQ units would enable better management of the various units and duties of the force. (6-Month Investment.) ◻◻
[X] Government Action: Commissioning Officers - The Carabinieri lacks the ability to operate in small units. The Government, via the Defence Council, will commission a number of junior officers and promote long-serving carabinieri officers to senior positions. Companies will be reorganised into operational 'platoons.' (6-Month Investment.) ◻◻
Kismayo-Turkana Line:
Progress, Kismayo-Marsabit: 22.5% (Est. completion June 1932)
Reports on Rifle Tests 1930
The rifle group acquired eighteen models of rifle considered potentially suitable as military weapons:
- FN mle. 24, 7 mm
- FN mle. 24, 7.65 mm
- ZB vz.24, 7.92 mm
- Mannlicher M.95, 6.5 mm
- Mannlicher-Schönauer, 6.5 mm
- Arisaka Type 38, 6.5 mm
- ZH-29, 7.92 mm
- Vickers-Armstrong-Pedersen, 7 mm
- Bang M1927, 6.5 mm
- Bang M1927, 7.92 mm
- FN Browning fusil automatique, 7.65 mm
- Thompson Military Model, 11.43 mm
- Carcano mod.1891, 6.5 mm
- Enfield P17
- Ross Mk.III, 7.7 mm
- Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield Mk.III, 7.7 mm
- Lebel Mle.1886 M93, 8 mm
- Mannlicher M.95/30, 8 mm
- Arisaka Type 30, 6.5 mm
- FN mle.24
- ZB vz.24
- Arisaka Type 38 (with 1907 Type 38 Arisaka spitzer cartridge)
- Enfield P17
After significant deliberation, the Rifle Group has decided to recommend the Defence Council place orders for the Arisaka Type 38 and stocks of the improved Type 38 Arisaka spitzer round. While it does not offer the greatest possible increase in engagement ranges, it is the lightest of them, the most robust against dust, and requires no to minimal training for troops already familiar with the Type 30.
A dissenting minority wishes to instead recommend the Enfield P17 on the basis that it may be possible to acquire it for a significantly lower cost than new Type 38 rifles.
The Rifle Group tested a number of self-loading rifles as part of the review. None were considered acceptable for Reewiin's needs, but it is worth mentioning two nonetheless:
- FN Browning fusil automatique: This was the only self-loading weapon to meet the standards of accuracy and long-range fire set by the Rifle Group. It achieved similar results to the FN mle.24, with which it shares ammunition. However, it is technically complicated and excessively heavy at 7.2kg unloaded. It is also significantly more expensive to acquire than an equivalent factory-fresh bolt-action rifle. It is capable of sustained fire like a machine gun with acceptable accuracy at long ranges.
- ZH-29: This weapon was unable to match the accuracy of the Type 30 Arisaka. It is mechanically complicated, and while lighter than the FN Browning, it is still heavy at 5.3kg. While less expensive than the Browning, it is still significantly more costly than non-self-loading rifles.
Mannlicher M.95: No notable increase in capability compared to the Type 30.
Mannlicher-Schönauer: No notable increase in capability compared to the Type 30.
Vickers-Armstrong-Pedersen: This was the lightest self-loader but suffered numerous mechanical failures, especially when exposed to dust.
Bang M1927: Mechanically unreliable and inaccurate. Scorch marks were found inside the 7.92 mm calibre variant after firing. The 6.5 mm calibre variant offered no advantages in range compared to the Type 30.
Thompson Military Model: Heavy, expensive, somewhat unreliable, and severely lacking in range.
Carcano mod.1891: No notable increase in capability compared to the Type 30.
Ross Mk.III: Accurate but mechanically unreliable.
Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield Mk.III: Cheap, and its 7.7 mm calibre is manufactured by our Japanese allies. Dropped from consideration as the Mauser-type rifles had better accuracy.
Lebel Mle.1886 M93: Met accuracy and range standards, but it was dropped from consideration as it could not be rapidly loaded with any kind of clip or detachable magazine.
Mannlicher M.95/30: Generally favourable comments, but it was dropped from consideration as the Mauser-type rifles had better accuracy.
Mannlicher-Schönauer: No notable increase in capability compared to the Type 30.
Vickers-Armstrong-Pedersen: This was the lightest self-loader but suffered numerous mechanical failures, especially when exposed to dust.
Bang M1927: Mechanically unreliable and inaccurate. Scorch marks were found inside the 7.92 mm calibre variant after firing. The 6.5 mm calibre variant offered no advantages in range compared to the Type 30.
Thompson Military Model: Heavy, expensive, somewhat unreliable, and severely lacking in range.
Carcano mod.1891: No notable increase in capability compared to the Type 30.
Ross Mk.III: Accurate but mechanically unreliable.
Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield Mk.III: Cheap, and its 7.7 mm calibre is manufactured by our Japanese allies. Dropped from consideration as the Mauser-type rifles had better accuracy.
Lebel Mle.1886 M93: Met accuracy and range standards, but it was dropped from consideration as it could not be rapidly loaded with any kind of clip or detachable magazine.
Mannlicher M.95/30: Generally favourable comments, but it was dropped from consideration as the Mauser-type rifles had better accuracy.
July 1930
International Headlines
Chicago: New flight endurance record established by Hunter brothers: 553 hours, 41 minutes, 30 seconds.
Crowborough: Renowned 'Sherlock Holmes' author Arthur Conan Doyle dead, plans to 'contact family from spirit world.'
Helsinki: 16,000 members of anti-communist Lapua movement march on Finnish capital, demanting anti-left-wing legislation.
Paris: France halts construction of new warships, pursues naval conference with Italy.
Rome: Italy agrees to French proposal: six month moratorium on warship construction.
Berlin: President Hindenburg issues emergency budget decree after German parliament votes against down budget. Entire parliament dissolved by emergency decree after demanding revocation of budget: budget restored by emergency decree.
Irpina: Over a thousand dead as earthquake strikes southern Italy.
Ottawa: Incumbent prime minister King defeated in election: R. B. Bennet new Canadian prime minister.
Changsha: Regional Chinese capital seized by communist rebels.
August 1930
International Headlines
Montreal: Airship R100 lands at Canadian airport, becoming fastest transatlantic airship: 78 hours, 51 minutes.
Marion: Mob abducts, kills, two black men awaiting trial from jail.
Addis Ababa: Gugsa Welle, widower of Ethiopian empress, executed for rebellion on orders of king Tafari Makonnen.
Hankow: Dozens of reds executed, hundred jailed, in crackdown on communism.
London: Frank Hawks sets new transatlantic flight speed record: 12 hours, 25 minutes, 3 seconds.
Hamilton: British Empire Games open in Canadian city.
Boleslawiec: Three dead, ten injured as communists, German nationalists, police clash in Poland.
Lima: President Augusto B. Leguía resigns following coup. General Manuel María Ponce Brousset assumes interim presidency, replaced by new president Luis Miguel Sánchez Cerro.
Geneva: League of Nations report condemns Britain for failure to defend Jews during Arab riots in Mandate for Palestine.
London: Italian divers discover SS Egypt wreck in English Channel: $5,000,000 in gold, silver onboard.
Exercises
The yearly national live fire exercises have been conducted in August, before the major planting for the Deyr rains begins. Results have been excellent, with the troops completing their twenty practice rounds more quickly and accurately than last year's averages. The artillery have achieved similarly pleasing results, scoring direct hits on all five targets provided. The artillery troops have praised their Japanese instructors' assistance.
September
International Headlines
Budapest: Thousands clash in riot between police and communists.
New York: Aviators Costes, Bellonte complete non-stop flight between Paris and New York.
Buenos Aires: President Hipólito Yrigoyen resigns after a week of demonstrations in the Argentine capital. Army troops enter presidential palace. General José Félix Uriburu recognised by supreme court as provisional president, dissolves congress, declares country besieged by leftists.
Trieste: Four Yugoslavs arrested, executed, for attempted assassination of Italian prime minister Mussolini.
Berlin: Communists, Nationalist Socialists clash on eve of parliamentary elections. Social Democratic party retains majority; Nationalist Socialist party second largest party in Germany. Fifteen thousand communists stage protest against Nationalist Socialist party.
Moscow: Soviets execute 48 for conspiracy to create food panic and overthrow the government.
Leipzig: During trial of army officers, Nationalist Socialist party leader Adolf Hitler vows no coup by his party, plan to replace constitution if elected.
Panvel: Fifteen dead in clash between Indian protesters and police.
Huntsville: Alabama national guard uses gas against white mob attempting to storm prison holding black murder suspect.
Vienna: President appoints Carl Vaugoin chancellor of Austria.
Havana: Students, police clash in protest against Cuban president Gerardo Machado. One student killed.
The Retreat from Addis Ababa
The rebellion in Ethiopia is not over simply because the largest congregation of rebels has been shattered. While Gugsa Welle was captured and most of his most loyal companions slaughtered in Addis Ababa, many of those fleeing north have been raiding as they go. Fighting is rumoured to be ongoing across the country's north even after several months. Both towns loyal to both Gugsa Welle and ones supporting Emperor Haile Sellasie have been put to the torch. It is presumed the uncrowned Emperor will launch a crackdown soon, but as yet, little has been heard.
As for Ras Gugsa Welle, he was publicly executed on the 5th of August, 1931. Thus ended the short 'reign' of Emperor Tewderos III.
From the House of Representatives
A message has been delivered to the Defence Council after a question was raised on the floor of the House. The Ethiopian military has defeated the rebels assaulting the Capital, and they did it with two things unseen in East Africa before: Aeroplanes and Tanks.
The question put before the House was this; War has changed, and we must change with it. Is Reewiin currently prepared to face such weapons? If not, what does the Defence Council intend to correct these matters?
What is the Defence Council's answer to the House?
[ ] Reewiins army is perfectly capable of handling these weapons with well-trained artillery and riflemen.
[ ] The Defence Council will assess anti-armour and anti-air weapons as soon as possible (Industry and Logistics - Armaments will now include AT and AA options.)
[ ] The Defence Council will be revisiting the Long Term Plan in the new year to respond to this change in the strategic landscape (January 1931 will include a Long Term revote.)
[ ] The Defence Council has plans for the future, but the situation is not yet right for introducing these elements.
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
Ugggggh, we need to finish the Carabinieri and then get armaments sorted.
I am reluctant to rush into it, especially since we're still sorting out our basic service rifle and small-arms, let alone updating our artillery or other armaments. We still need the basics before we start thinking about incorporating more stuff.
So... I think:
[ ] The Defence Council will be revisiting the Long Term Plan in the new year to respond to this change in the strategic landscape (January 1931 will include a Long Term revote.)
[ ] The Defence Council has plans for the future, but the situation is not yet right for introducing these elements.
One of these two.
The good news is that in a few years, there will the perfectly serviceable 37mm PaK up for export (or the 37mm Bofors).
I am reluctant to rush into it, especially since we're still sorting out our basic service rifle and small-arms, let alone updating our artillery or other armaments. We still need the basics before we start thinking about incorporating more stuff.
So... I think:
[ ] The Defence Council will be revisiting the Long Term Plan in the new year to respond to this change in the strategic landscape (January 1931 will include a Long Term revote.)
[ ] The Defence Council has plans for the future, but the situation is not yet right for introducing these elements.
One of these two.
The good news is that in a few years, there will the perfectly serviceable 37mm PaK up for export (or the 37mm Bofors).
Last edited:
- Location
- an unseen void
- Pronouns
- Any
I lean towards
[ ] The Defence Council has plans for the future, but the situation is not yet right for introducing these elements.
They're stuff we need to address but our resources are limited and I don't want to throw over anything we're working on for it in the short term.
[ ] The Defence Council has plans for the future, but the situation is not yet right for introducing these elements.
They're stuff we need to address but our resources are limited and I don't want to throw over anything we're working on for it in the short term.
The Arisaka is unsurprising. I am very sad that straight pull was not as sexy and cool as hoped.
However, I'm wondering if the Rifle Group saw any features of the other rifles that could be added to the Arisaka as an improvement? Did any of the other rifles have a better sight? Was a longer or shorter barrel easier to work with? Were there any features on other rifles that, if adapted to the Arisaka, would help improve performance, reduce weight, or simplify manufacturing? Would adopting 6.5 Swedish be better than 6.5 Arisaka to get a little bit more bang, or is this enough?
We're starting production from scratch, so now's the best time to make small improvements to a solid base design. Also, the Reewiin Arisaka's gotta be distinct enough that in 90 years we merit our own youtube video/wikipedia page!
If we can hold off for a few years, there's a bunch of medium AA options that show up that I think are better, and one stand-out light option. Bofors has the 40 mm L/60, which is probably the most capable medium AA gun of the war. If we want something a little lighter but still a good design in that calibre range, the Cannone-Mitragliera da 37/54 (Breda) is a bit of a sleeper option. The gun itself is really good (having several of the features that make the Bofors good, like the ability to continuously supply rounds while firing), but the designers of the naval mount got hit with the good idea fairy and made an overly-complicated stabilized nonrecoiling mount. If we were to license it from Breda and design our own towed mount that doesn't try to do anything fancy and new (or just stick it on what's totally not a copy of someone else's gun mount), we'd have a good option. The third stand-out option of the early '30s, IMO, is the Bofors 25 mm M/32. It's a scaled down 40 mm, making it even lighter than the 40 mm and 37 mm options. Unlike the Japanese 25 mm, it fires a more powerful round and doesn't have to stop firing to reload (and exists prior to '35). For light AA, nothing beats the M2 Browning if we can get our hands on it (and Japan did - some of their aircraft cannons are rechambered, enlarged Brownings), but that starts manufacture in '33.
I'm a fan of all these options for another reason. Our possible enemies are Italy, Japan, or Britain, with a low likelihood of seeing German tanks if Italy allies with Germany (who knows, maybe things get butterflied - the Italians and Germans had some political spats around the time of the Italo-Ethiopian war, so our presence could cause ripples). Their "main" tanks in the early stage of WWII are roughly as follows:
Edit: for comparison, since it's hard to put meaning to random numbers, the QF 2 pdr penetrates just shy of 40 mm at 30 deg obliquity and 1 km with basic AP and shy of 50 with APCBC. The Bofors 40 mm L/60 has more muzzle energy and the same calibre, so it'll perform better. The Italian 37 is a bit weaker, but not by much; it'll go through the upper glacis of any of the above mentioned tanks at 1 km. The 25 mm is harder to get a read on, but the Japanese 25 could do 42 mm at 0 obliquity and 100 m and it uses a smaller cartridge than the Bofors.
However, I think another thing we should be considering is getting our own airplanes and - especially - tanks. A dozen trainers/light fighters would be a good thing to get experience with in the leadup to war and as a way to not be caught completely flat-footed if war breaks out soon, with purchases of modern aircraft later once we've got a trained cadre. As for tanks, Reewiin's "unique strength" is our steel industry. Nothing leverages that more than tanks do as long as we can get the fuel and engines for them. Four shitty Italian tankettes decided the fate of the Civil War; if we played around with making a modernized, domestic version of the I-Go or a Christie tank or something and built a few platoons of them, we'd arguably have the biggest stick in most of East Africa.
However, I'm wondering if the Rifle Group saw any features of the other rifles that could be added to the Arisaka as an improvement? Did any of the other rifles have a better sight? Was a longer or shorter barrel easier to work with? Were there any features on other rifles that, if adapted to the Arisaka, would help improve performance, reduce weight, or simplify manufacturing? Would adopting 6.5 Swedish be better than 6.5 Arisaka to get a little bit more bang, or is this enough?
We're starting production from scratch, so now's the best time to make small improvements to a solid base design. Also, the Reewiin Arisaka's gotta be distinct enough that in 90 years we merit our own youtube video/wikipedia page!
I'm likewise hesitant to make promises right now. The available light AA options in 1930 are pretty poor, with the possible exception of the Solothurn ST-5, which is just being developed right now and has lots of problems anyways. A bunch of Maxim guns in high angle mounts or pom-poms aren't going to be useful in a few years (I will fight anyone who says the pom-pom is good by WWII standards).
If we can hold off for a few years, there's a bunch of medium AA options that show up that I think are better, and one stand-out light option. Bofors has the 40 mm L/60, which is probably the most capable medium AA gun of the war. If we want something a little lighter but still a good design in that calibre range, the Cannone-Mitragliera da 37/54 (Breda) is a bit of a sleeper option. The gun itself is really good (having several of the features that make the Bofors good, like the ability to continuously supply rounds while firing), but the designers of the naval mount got hit with the good idea fairy and made an overly-complicated stabilized nonrecoiling mount. If we were to license it from Breda and design our own towed mount that doesn't try to do anything fancy and new (or just stick it on what's totally not a copy of someone else's gun mount), we'd have a good option. The third stand-out option of the early '30s, IMO, is the Bofors 25 mm M/32. It's a scaled down 40 mm, making it even lighter than the 40 mm and 37 mm options. Unlike the Japanese 25 mm, it fires a more powerful round and doesn't have to stop firing to reload (and exists prior to '35). For light AA, nothing beats the M2 Browning if we can get our hands on it (and Japan did - some of their aircraft cannons are rechambered, enlarged Brownings), but that starts manufacture in '33.
I'm a fan of all these options for another reason. Our possible enemies are Italy, Japan, or Britain, with a low likelihood of seeing German tanks if Italy allies with Germany (who knows, maybe things get butterflied - the Italians and Germans had some political spats around the time of the Italo-Ethiopian war, so our presence could cause ripples). Their "main" tanks in the early stage of WWII are roughly as follows:
- M13/40; UFP 30 mm @ 10 deg
- Ha-Go; UFP 12 mm @ 15 deg
- Chi-Ha; UFP 25 mm @ 30 deg
- Crusader II; it's a mess but let's say 32 mm armour basis in most areas
- Matilda II; UFP 75 mm @ vertical
- Panzer III; UFP 30 mm @ 10 deg (50 mm on later variants)
Edit: for comparison, since it's hard to put meaning to random numbers, the QF 2 pdr penetrates just shy of 40 mm at 30 deg obliquity and 1 km with basic AP and shy of 50 with APCBC. The Bofors 40 mm L/60 has more muzzle energy and the same calibre, so it'll perform better. The Italian 37 is a bit weaker, but not by much; it'll go through the upper glacis of any of the above mentioned tanks at 1 km. The 25 mm is harder to get a read on, but the Japanese 25 could do 42 mm at 0 obliquity and 100 m and it uses a smaller cartridge than the Bofors.
However, I think another thing we should be considering is getting our own airplanes and - especially - tanks. A dozen trainers/light fighters would be a good thing to get experience with in the leadup to war and as a way to not be caught completely flat-footed if war breaks out soon, with purchases of modern aircraft later once we've got a trained cadre. As for tanks, Reewiin's "unique strength" is our steel industry. Nothing leverages that more than tanks do as long as we can get the fuel and engines for them. Four shitty Italian tankettes decided the fate of the Civil War; if we played around with making a modernized, domestic version of the I-Go or a Christie tank or something and built a few platoons of them, we'd arguably have the biggest stick in most of East Africa.
Last edited:
Rat King
Izutsumi-pilled
I think trying to do double-duty might bite us in the ass later. I think for our AA purposes, it'd be good to go with the 25mm Bofors, since it's lighter and will be more packable with our logistics for the foreseeable future. Maybe some 40mms for static positions - depots, cities, ports, etc. Bofors also makes a 75mm AA for medium/high level defense.
For AT, I think one of the light 37s will do fine.
Regarding tanks, I think that'll need to come later - finding a steady supply of fuel oil will be a thing we need to do (and aviation fuel). There are a ton of light tank variants out there, but the Vickers 6-ton is a decent choice.
But a nascent airforce of like a dozen trainers/light fighter-bombers would be good to have. Potentially some older Japanese models or maybe British or American, depending on what we want to do?
Last edited:
I'm hesitant to go with the Bofors 25 mm just because 25 mm as a calibre ended up being so maligned postwar and dropped in favour of 37-40 mm (with the notable exception of the Soviet 25 mm, which might point to it just being a Japan thing). If we want something that won't be a logistical burden, I'm not sure if it's worth going to the 25 mm instead of dropping all the way to 12.7 for a gun that's even easier to manage for the regimental AA company if we're concerned about it.
I think the German 37 is a bit too weak if we want to go for a dedicated AT gun, only penetrating 31 mm at 500 m. In Reewiin's scrubland and desert, that's awfully close range. The Breda 37, for comparison, has 38% more muzzle energy. Sure we don't know exactly what tanks we'll be facing (ignoring hindsight or not), but by 1930 there were already tanks with 30 mm of front armour in service (the Char 2C), and it's not unbelievable to think we'll need to be able to kill tanks similarly well protected at long range in the future.
Agreed that tanks need to come later, but it's something we should remember to put fairly high on our to-do list IMO. It fits our strengths if we start stockpiling diesel fuel early enough and it's a huge force multiplier. Also, because it's fun, we should design a domestic Reewiin tank
I'd like to break away from Japan because I don't think their air doctrine suits us. Long range turny fighters aren't what our small East African country needs.
Eukie
Powered by furious Canadian redheads
The Rifle Group assessed the rifles as-is and can't really say much about modifying them or specific manufacturing concerns.
Most of the rifles tested had roughly the same overall length and weights tended to be clustered around 4 kg, with the Arisaka Type 38 the lightest at about 3.7 kg and the heaviest bolt-action coming in at maybe 4.3 kg. The Arisaka's sights are good, but some shooters preferred the aperture sights found on other rifles to the Arisaka's V-notch sights, while others preferred V-notch sights to the apertures. Some of the rifles, like the Ross and P17, managed to squeeze out a tiny bit of extra accuracy by placing the rear sight behind the chamber, increasing the sight radius. At the same time, doing this would prevent fitting the kind of dust cover that made the Arisaka so reliable in dusty conditions. The Lee-Enfield has a 10-round magazine, though it takes two stripper clips to reload it so the overall rate of fire remains the same. Some of the rifles, including the straight pull designs, had bolt handles that could be operated without taking the sights off the target, which was nice for rapid fire at close ranges.
The 6.5×55 mm patr m/94 cartridge tested with the Bang rifle performed equivalently to the 6.5×50 mm Arisaka Type 30 round (they're basically identical), and worse than the fancy new 6.5×50 mm Type 38 round. The rifle group emphasises the difference between the two Japanese 6.5 mm cartridges strongly in their report because there's such an obvious difference in performance, and they want to stress that the increase in engagement ranges (but not the advantages in weight or reliability) will disappear if existing stocks of ammunition are used.
I like the way you think!