East Africa 1930: An ORBAT Quest

I like @ToadLicker's name suggestion. I know we are considering getting a home-built Hotchkiss... do we want to write in that AND the ZB or just go for one or the other? Or do we want to try and miniaturize the 13.2mm?

That seems to be the main question.


If you want a home-built Hotchkiss with the current arisaka cartridges, just look for the Type 3 Machine gun from Japan, but by now, it's already outdated.

For the ZB, other than them being excited to make a deal with us, it allows us to essentially open relations with Czechoslovakia. Other than that, they would be more willing to convert it to 6.5mm. For the ammo situation, you can just extend the regular 20 round box magazine, since all magazines use the same mechanism to push the cartridges to the gun itself. The cartridge that we're going to use is also smaller than it's original 7.57×57mm Mauser cartridge, freeing up space for more rounds inside the mqgazine.

The 13.2mm machine gun in question is the Hotchkiss 13.2 mm machine gun from france. This is interesting since Japan eventually licenced this gun as the Type 93 heavy machine gun in 1935. Good AA and ground weapon but horrible in it's job under naval use.
Also not preferable as by the late 1930s, it's already obsolete, being replaced by the larger 20mm Oerlikons on ships (unless you're the Japanese).
 
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For the ZB, other than them being excited to make a deal with us, it allows us to essentially open relations with Czechoslovakia. Other than that, they would be more willing to convert it to 6.5mm.
I agree, the company should be happy to try and make a bespoke-caliber version of their weapon for a paying customer. It's what they do, and during this economic depression, they would be happy for the business.
 
If you want a home-built Hotchkiss with the current arisaka cartridges, just look for the Type 3 Machine gun from Japan, but by now, it's already outdated.
FYI (and everyone else), Reewiin's army already has six Type 3 HMGs in service. Our home-built 6.5 mm Hotchkiss would consist of taking those apart and copying them.

That said, how are they outdated? I'm not a huge small-arms person; while the Hotchkiss design is undoubtably old by this point, from what I've heard it's a robust design. How is it deficient/what could we do to modernize it?

I'm so gung ho about us doing this specifically because I think it's a good way for us to get out of this economic hole and fill our long-term goals. If we want further independence from Japan, the decolonization of East Africa, or just having a strong military, an arms industry that can fund itself by selling abroad is a good thing. This is how we get our foot in the door.
For the ZB, other than them being excited to make a deal with us, it allows us to essentially open relations with Czechoslovakia. Other than that, they would be more willing to convert it to 6.5mm. For the ammo situation, you can just extend the regular 20 round box magazine, since all magazines use the same mechanism to push the cartridges to the gun itself. The cartridge that we're going to use is also smaller than it's original 7.57×57mm Mauser cartridge, freeing up space for more rounds inside the mqgazine.
Agreed on most of this, although it should be noted that the 6.5x50 mm round is semi-rimmed, and thus might need the funny curved mags like what you see on the Bren. ZB has a patent for a magazine that can handle rimmed ammo, though, so we're still good.

The rim diameter of the 6.5 mm round also is only 0.1 mm smaller than the 7.92's, so we'd probably need longer mags to get higher capacity. Good thing we can ask for that :p
The 13.2mm machine gun in question is the Hotchkiss 13.2 mm machine gun from france. This is interesting since Japan eventually licenced this gun as the Type 93 heavy machine gun in 1935. Good AA and ground weapon but horrible in it's job under naval use.
Also not preferable as by the late 1930s, it's already obsolete, being replaced by the larger 20mm Oerlikons on ships (unless you're the Japanese).
The goverment spontaneously purchased a bunch of Hotchkiss 13.2 mm Mle. 1929s a few turns back, so again, if we wanted to make a knockoff copy, we could do that by inspecting the guns we have. If we can fix some of the issues it has (significant weight, feeding from strips/mags instead of belts, low rate of fire), the overall design seems similar to the Berezin UB; combine that with explosive shells (like what Japan did on their 12.7s) and firing from a closed bolt (to allow synchronization), and we could get a powerful aircraft gun in a form factor that isn't prohibitive on early aircraft. Likewise, it'd be a useful thing to have kicking around so that enemy pilots don't get too used to ignoring ground fire because "it's just 6.5 mm".

The Italian 37 mm naval autocannon is also a scaled up version of the Hotchkiss 13.2, and from what I've heard was a very good gun in an overcomplicated, mediocre mounting.

That said, I definitely think that kind of stuff should wait. We should prioritize infantry weapons, as much as it pains me to say so.
 
FYI (and everyone else), Reewiin's army already has six Type 3 HMGs in service. Our home-built 6.5 mm Hotchkiss would consist of taking those apart and copying them.

That said, how are they outdated? I'm not a huge small-arms person; while the Hotchkiss design is undoubtably old by this point, from what I've heard it's a robust design. How is it deficient/what could we do to modernize it?

I'm so gung ho about us doing this specifically because I think it's a good way for us to get out of this economic hole and fill our long-term goals. If we want further independence from Japan, the decolonization of East Africa, or just having a strong military, an arms industry that can fund itself by selling abroad is a good thing. This is how we get our foot in the door.

Sorry on my part, I seem to forgot that it was in use until 1945, means that it wasn't outdated at all.

That said, by replacing those with the licenced ZB, we are one step closer towards an independent arms industry. Also we could make the market ourselves, we have an ammo factory making 6.5 Arisaka, and we can (if the license is agreed) make the ZB, a gun that can fire that particular cartridge. So we'll be selling both the guns and the ammo. (Similar situation with the FN Minimi vs HK MG4, same cartridge, different gun)


The goverment spontaneously purchased a bunch of Hotchkiss 13.2 mm Mle. 1929s a few turns back, so again, if we wanted to make a knockoff copy, we could do that by inspecting the guns we have. If we can fix some of the issues it has (significant weight, feeding from strips/mags instead of belts, low rate of fire), the overall design seems similar to the Berezin UB; combine that with explosive shells (like what Japan did on their 12.7s) and firing from a closed bolt (to allow synchronization), and we could get a powerful aircraft gun in a form factor that isn't prohibitive on early aircraft. Likewise, it'd be a useful thing to have kicking around so that enemy pilots don't get too used to ignoring ground fire because "it's just 6.5 mm

You could, but it would take precious time that we could spent on making the production line running for the machine guns. Also by the time we would need aircraft-mounted guns, there would be more developments compared to now.


That said, I definitely think that kind of stuff should wait. We should prioritize infantry weapons, as much as it pains me to say so.

Yes, I agree. With our air force currently nonexistent and our first ship arriving at a later date, it would be wise to focus on infantry weapons for the time being.
 
Sorry on my part, I seem to forgot that it was in use until 1945, means that it wasn't outdated at all.

That said, by replacing those with the licenced ZB, we are one step closer towards an independent arms industry. Also we could make the market ourselves, we have an ammo factory making 6.5 Arisaka, and we can (if the license is agreed) make the ZB, a gun that can fire that particular cartridge. So we'll be selling both the guns and the ammo. (Similar situation with the FN Minimi vs HK MG4, same cartridge, different gun)
The ZB fills a different niche to the Hotchkiss. You don't set up a ZB on a tripod then continuously fire for several hours, nor do you try and give each squad a Mle. 1914. We could modify the ZB to fill that role (heavier barrel, high-precision milled receiver, belt feed, tripod mount, etc.) but in doing so we're making it less suitable as something that can be manufactured in large quantities and given out at the squad level.

The advantage to the Hotchkiss is we're operating outside a license agreement. ZB might not be happy if we start selling their gun abroad (and thus start competing with them), or if it is allowed, they'll take a cut of the profits. The Mle 1914 can legally be copied and sold and there's nothing the French can do about it. To be clear, I think we should do both, I just see advantages to this.
You could, but it would take precious time that we could spent on making the production line running for the machine guns. Also by the time we would need aircraft-mounted guns, there would be more developments compared to now.

Yes, I agree. With our air force currently nonexistent and our first ship arriving at a later date, it would be wise to focus on infantry weapons for the time being.
Yeah I'm just mentioning it now so we remember for later. Once we've gotten our infantry weapons purchased/in production, though, I'd like to work on adapting the Hotchkiss into a gun that can be used on aircraft or as a light AA piece, and a 37 mm version for use as medium AA (similar to what the Italians did).

Anyhow, proposed plans, very open to revision:

[ ] Kutulo*

[ ]Plan: LMGs and embedded police
-[ ] Dock her and assess her alongside.
-[ ] Production Licensing: Machine Guns - Attempt to buy the rights to produce a machine gun design. Include a weapon available in 1931 as a Write-In. Some will be easily acquired, others will be immediately refused. (12-Month Investment. Initial production will be low-rate, and improve over time.)
--[ ] Write-in: ZB vz. 30 chambered in 6.5x50mmSR Arisaka with a 30 round detachable box magazine
-[ ] Write-in: The Veterinary office will conduct basic field tests, agricultural surveys, and number crunching to determine the logistical constraints on future projects to employ horses, donkeys, mules, oxen, and other field animals as part of the military's operations.**
-[ ] Write-in: Attach a Carabinieri Liaison Officer to each Carabinieri detachment acting outside the combat chain-of-command. They are to act as a representative of the central government; provide arbitration, policing, and protection of the rights of the citizens overseen by the detachment (with the rest of the Carabinieri detachment being used as the "stick"); limit corruption in the Carabineri's pay chain to prevent their use as "hired muscle"; and try and keep the soldiers from straying too far from the rules & regulations.

[ ]Plan: MMGs and embedded police
-[ ] Dock her and assess her alongside.
-[ ] Write-in: Reverse-engineer the Type 3 machine guns currently in service and begin production of a copy at Reewiin's state arsenal now that Hotchkiss's patent on the design has expired. If feasible, make limited alterations to the design based on field reports, to improve performance, and/or to reduce cost.
-[ ] Write-in: The Veterinary office will conduct basic field tests, agricultural surveys, and number crunching to determine the logistical constraints on future projects to employ horses, donkeys, mules, oxen, and other field animals as part of the military's operations.**
-[ ] Write-in: Attach a Carabinieri Liaison Officer to each Carabinieri detachment acting outside the combat chain-of-command. They are to act as a representative of the central government; provide arbitration, policing, and protection of the rights of the citizens overseen by the detachment (with the rest of the Carabinieri detachment being used as the "stick"); limit corruption in the Carabineri's pay chain to prevent their use as "hired muscle"; and try and keep the soldiers from straying too far from the rules & regulations.

*Lagh Kutulo is a river in Reewiin.
**Borrowed from @Potato Anarchy, with the addition of oxen.
 
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The ZB fills a different niche to the Hotchkiss. You don't set up a ZB on a tripod then continuously fire for several hours, nor do you try and give each squad a Mle. 1914. We could modify the ZB to fill that role (heavier barrel, high-precision milled receiver, belt feed, tripod mount, etc.) but in doing so we're making it less suitable as something that can be manufactured in large quantities and given out at the squad level.

The advantage to the Hotchkiss is we're operating outside a license agreement. ZB might not be happy if we start selling their gun abroad (and thus start competing with them), or if it is allowed, they'll take a cut of the profits. The Mle 1914 can legally be copied and sold and there's nothing the French can do about it. To be clear, I think we should do both, I just see advantages to this.

Yeah I'm just mentioning it now so we remember for later. Once we've gotten our infantry weapons purchased/in production, though, I'd like to work on adapting the Hotchkiss into a gun that can be used on aircraft or as a light AA piece, and a 37 mm version for use as medium AA (similar to what the Italians did).

Anyhow, proposed plans, very open to revision:

[ ]Plan: LMGs and embedded police
-[ ] Dock her and assess her alongside.
-[ ] Kutulo*
-[ ] Production Licensing: Machine Guns - Attempt to buy the rights to produce a machine gun design. Include a weapon available in 1931 as a Write-In. Some will be easily acquired, others will be immediately refused. (12-Month Investment. Initial production will be low-rate, and improve over time.)
--[ ] Write-in: ZB vz. 30 chambered in 6.5x50mmSR Arisaka with a 30 round detachable box magazine
-[ ] Write-in: The Veterinary office will conduct basic field tests, agricultural surveys, and number crunching to determine the logistical constraints on future projects to employ horses, donkeys, mules, oxen, and other field animals as part of the military's operations.**
-[ ] Write-in: Attach a Carabinieri Liaison Officer to each Carabinieri detachment acting outside the combat chain-of-command. They are to act as a representative of the central government; provide arbitration, policing, and protection of the rights of the citizens overseen by the detachment (with the rest of the Carabinieri detachment being used as the "stick"); limit corruption in the Carabineri's pay chain to prevent their use as "hired muscle"; and try and keep the soldiers from straying too far from the rules & regulations.

[ ]Plan: MMGs and embedded police
-[ ] Dock her and assess her alongside.
-[ ] Kutulo*
-[ ] Write-in: Reverse-engineer the Type 3 machine guns currently in service and begin production of a copy at Reewiin's state arsenal now that Hotchkiss's patent on the design has expired. If feasible, make limited alterations to the design based on field reports, to improve performance, and/or to reduce cost.
-[ ] Write-in: The Veterinary office will conduct basic field tests, agricultural surveys, and number crunching to determine the logistical constraints on future projects to employ horses, donkeys, mules, oxen, and other field animals as part of the military's operations.**
-[ ] Write-in: Attach a Carabinieri Liaison Officer to each Carabinieri detachment acting outside the combat chain-of-command. They are to act as a representative of the central government; provide arbitration, policing, and protection of the rights of the citizens overseen by the detachment (with the rest of the Carabinieri detachment being used as the "stick"); limit corruption in the Carabineri's pay chain to prevent their use as "hired muscle"; and try and keep the soldiers from straying too far from the rules & regulations.

*Lagh Kutulo is a river in Reewiin.
**Borrowed from @Potato Anarchy, with the addition of oxen.

I like these plans, but I feel like that write-in would work more effectively if it was combined with or came after establishing a policing branch.
 
Generally like those plans and will figure out what happened in Gun Talk while I was distracted soon, but as a matter of principle I cannot vote for either of them until the naming vote is broken out into its own line; there's nothing about boat naming that has to do with plan synergy and we can+should vote for it separately than the rest.
 
Generally like those plans and will figure out what happened in Gun Talk while I was distracted soon, but as a matter of principle I cannot vote for either of them until the naming vote is broken out into its own line; there's nothing about boat naming that has to do with plan synergy and we can+should vote for it separately than the rest.
Done.
 
[x] Plan: MMGs and MP units
[x] Kutulo

I still want to circle back and pick up the ZB LMGs later, but right now, our own version of the Type 3 would give Reewin something to export for money. If we can give it a belt-feed and lighten it up, I believe our conveniently-very-distant patrons would be happy to give us currency in exchange for a supply of them...
 
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I like the idea for the Carabineri, but it seems like that write-in might set them up as very adversarial with the rest of the company, in a way we're not prepared to back up with adequate training or enforcement. And without a stronger officer pool to pull into these political duties, I don't know how we could sidestep those issues in a way that actually achieves much.

For now, I think it'd be best to establish special units as the default option shows - which can be distributed up in the future when there's a more robust officer and NCO stratum and more regularity and experience, and hopefully less of a need for central scrutiny. If there really is mass internal deployment of the Carabinieri in the future, the dedicated units can still serve as cadres.

[X]Plan: MMGs and MP units
-[X] Dock her and assess her alongside.
-[X] Write-in: Reverse-engineer the Type 3 machine guns currently in service and begin production of a copy at Reewiin's state arsenal now that Hotchkiss's patent on the design has expired. If feasible, make limited alterations to the design based on field reports, to improve performance, and/or to reduce cost.
-[X] Write-in: The Veterinary office will conduct basic field tests, agricultural surveys, and number crunching to determine the logistical constraints on future projects to employ horses, donkeys, mules, oxen, and other field animals as part of the military's operations.**
-[X] Organisational Reform: Police Force - While the Carabinieri is responsible for internal security, its position as a military force can compromise that. Each Region should have a specialist policing force subsidiary to its larger military formation. (9-Month Investment.)

[X] Kutulo
 
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[X]Plan: MMGs and MP units
-[X] Dock her and assess her alongside.
-[X] Write-in: Reverse-engineer the Type 3 machine guns currently in service and begin production of a copy at Reewiin's state arsenal now that Hotchkiss's patent on the design has expired. If feasible, make limited alterations to the design based on field reports, to improve performance, and/or to reduce cost.
-[X] Write-in: The Veterinary office will conduct basic field tests, agricultural surveys, and number crunching to determine the logistical constraints on future projects to employ horses, donkeys, mules, oxen, and other field animals as part of the military's operations.**
-[X] Organisational Reform: Police Force - While the Carabinieri is responsible for internal security, its position as a military force can compromise that. Each Region should have a specialist policing force subsidiary to its larger military formation. (9-Month Investment.)


[X] Kutulo
 
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