Well, yes. Though, Like I was talking about with the skills being stored locally on the nervegear client, it's entirely possible that items themselves along with familiar data is stored locally rather than on the server. It also makes a certain amount of sense to have both a local and server copy to sync with. It's entirely possible that Yui was transferring for days rather than the almost instant one that the anime/book implied.
Except that then you still have the not-so-small threat of Cardinal deleting that data before the transfer can get to more than 10% Completion. Also, still calling bullshit on the Nerve Gear having enough space to store Yui's data.
Nerve gear is hyper advanced, it can fry peoples brains with no way for doctors to take it off without setting off the failsafe and killing them anyway.
Even assuming it contains a screen for eyesight and headphones for hearing it still has to transmit, smell, touch and taste.
The thing is, though, that the brain frying and the sensory manipulation of the Nerve Gear both use Microwaves-Bullshit - That much, at least, is internally consistent. The data storage of the Nerve Gear is completely unrelated to the interaction systems, and there is absolutely no reason for Nerve Gears to have enough data storage space to store an AI- It would be sufficiently prohibitively expensive that no one would be able to afford a Nerve Gear.
In regard to canon SAO, I personally recommend reciting the MST3K Mantra: "It's just a show; I should really just relax." Who am I kidding? This is SV. There will be no relaxing while someone is wrong on the internet.
However, this is not canon SAO, and I'm going to give Vebyast the benefit of the doubt when it comes to avoiding the trap-laden stations of canon.
The thing is, though, that the brain frying and the sensory manipulation of the Nerve Gear both use Microwaves-Bullshit - That much, at least, is internally consistent. The data storage of the Nerve Gear is completely unrelated to the interaction systems, and there is absolutely no reason for Nerve Gears to have enough data storage space to store an AI- It would be sufficiently prohibitively expensive that no one would be able to afford a Nerve Gear.
Are you really going to quibble over whether the things within a show can or can't do the things they are show doing?
If it were reality none of it would exist.
It both exists and is in a fictional universe. Kayaba is acknowledged as the genius creator of it all in universe. The nervegear is acknowledged as super advanced in universe. It's there to give us a show.
Storing and Resurrecting AI's was previously shown by bringing back Pina.
The entirety of SAO is lag free, despite the horrific amounts of data being streamed. So yes, he could transmit yui's data.
As for having the space? Again the nerve gear (or whatever device it's hooked up to at least) can hold The Seed. Compared to that one little AI is a drop in the bucket. And she was compressed into item form.
As for having the space? Again the nerve gear (or whatever device it's hooked up to at least) can hold The Seed. Compared to that one little AI is a drop in the bucket. And she was compressed into item form.
Already addressed this- different situation entirely- [Pina's Heart] could've been a reference pointer, while the little 'Yui' gem-
No. Y'know what? This sort of thing will never not piss me off. I give up, I'm going to go pound the MST3K mantra into my head and scream to an uncaring universe about how writers who don't know what they're talking abou-
As for having the space? Again the nerve gear (or whatever device it's hooked up to at least) can hold The Seed. Compared to that one little AI is a drop in the bucket. And she was compressed into item form.
Kayaba secretly being from some precursor species (partially or in full) would explain some things. So would him being a Tinker, but both would raise yet more questions.
It's like the holy Grail of coding. Contains at least one AI capable of learning. Unpacks into thousands of variant worlds. Self adapting, updates itself on the fly. Generates new content itself.
It basically meets the definition of life. It can grow, adapt, react to stimuli, even reproduce.
A seed is exactly what it is. Plant it and watch it grow.
(maybe Kirito coded as a hobby, and there's a prebuilt utility for using NPC references to transfer their specific data into a player object, the use for which was dummied out? Maybe the logout requires additional credentials?)
It's worth considering which functions were locked from Yui's administrative access. Obviously the logout option is not available to her, since her prime directive(mental health of players) would demand that she boot them all from the system safely, but basic object administration? Not so much
The major problem with this is that [Pina's Heart] wouldn't have had to be more than a reference pointer; the data was still on the same server. Meanwhile, Yui's data would've had to be transferred entirely; creating a new reference pointer wouldn't do any good, since Cardinal could still just strike at the data's location, and there would be no way to 'save the item to the nerve gear'(which, honestly speaking, is the biggest grievance I have with that scene; there's no fucking way the Nerve Gear has enough room to save an AI on it just like *snap* that.
Can't do that. Items and itemized NPCs have to contain the full object data used in order for player accounts to be transferrable across SEED games, since these games would not necessarily share a server or any communications at all.
However, note that you don't need to have a full fledged AI stored. Yui(and Pina) was explained as an advanced adaptive expert system, in which case her data structure would logically be a database of linked high value memory record nodes and percentage weightings(derived from pruned memory records).
It's running on the Seed kernel, as a sub-module of Cardinal. Mechanically it'd be rather like Clippy, a module inside Microsoft Word(handling all the data environment interactions) and Windows(handling all the IO level interactions).
The entirety of SAO is lag free, despite the horrific amounts of data being streamed. So yes, he could transmit yui's data.
As for having the space? Again the nerve gear (or whatever device it's hooked up to at least) can hold The Seed. Compared to that one little AI is a drop in the bucket. And she was compressed into item form.
Actually, this is the most believable part of the whole thing. Memory is one of the things that grow very fast as technology advances. The SD card in your average modern smartphone could store the entire OS of past computers, and to spare. It's a necessary element if you want to actually run SAO without lag, by hosting and storing a lot of the processing, particularly rendered graphics and complex data structures, locally.
Of course, it also makes it rather vulnerable to being hacked or spoofed.
Just want to say that, as an actual computer programmer, and one who has in fact worked on MMO code, both working for a company that made MMOs, and cracking the data structures used in other MMOs, some of the concepts being thrown around about the manner of saving data, transferring items, "compressing an AI into item form", and various other details, are completely and utterly laughable.
Don't try to explain it. Don't try to justify it. Just accept that SAO is just as much bullshit in the coding department as it is in the game design department, and leave it at that.
Whilst we're in a lull, is there any chance that we make a group effort from this point to dial back on the negativity?
It's getting a bit much, and there's a point where such discussion stops being productive. Like it or not, it's how canon played out. Differences and divergences from canon are entirely at Vebyast's discretion, and this kind of discussion can put pressure on an author/QM to meet the standards/unspoken demands of the more volatile and vocal players.
We're on page 9 of a quest thread comprised of the OP, votes, and a 8 page derail. If the flaws and criticisms of SAO need to be discussed this urgently I'm sure there's a relevant thread we can take it to. If there isn't someone can make one, or take it to PMs.
That's not how Network Communications work. And before you go off saying those don't have anything to do with the situation, Kirito and Asuna are currently in the hospital, connected though that network to SAO's servers. Kayaba's tech, no matter how advanced, still has to use the old network communications to talk back and forth, because they have to go through the old networks to connect to each other. There are two possible protocols that might have been used when they're trying to "download" Yui. TCP/IP and UDP. And guess what, neither of them would work. TCP requires handshakes and back and forth communications that ensure there isn't loss of data between the two communicating devices. It uses individual security numbers for each communicant and the number of bits received to acknowledge that it has received everything and is ready for the next series of information. Meanwhile Yui is dying, loosing the data that would be transferred screwing with the security numbers and meaning that if--by some miracle--it works she's still likely missing entire sections of code due to the time it took to confirm everything. UDP is used for streaming because it doesn't confirm if the receiver is ready, willing, and able to take the information. It also doesn't check to make sure it all showed up, showed up in the right order, or if any of the information got there. So in either case, she's probably missing too much code to ever run again, like you would be unable to function like you used to or more likely at all if suddenly you were missing a lung, your liver, and everything nearby!
As for the lack of lag... That's actually a trick. First off, again they're all connected to a hospital or similar's network, which usually has at the least decent connection speed, and even then the way MMO and all online Multiplayer use stuff like that is to have the clients actions occur on the client side before the server actually implements them. So your character will always feel responsive. Likely they just tweaked the edge case of PK killing when the victim would have gotten away in their scenario to be "player survives" rather than "player dies... with special animation." Well, if Kayaba wants to be fair they did.
As for having the space? Again the nerve gear (or whatever device it's hooked up to at least) can hold The Seed. Compared to that one little AI is a drop in the bucket. And she was compressed into item form.
Blah blah blah, SAO is cool to hate, etc and so on.
Whatever, you're repeating the same old tired arguments, it's really none of my business whether you like it or not, but as for me I actually do like it.
Anyway, you forgot about the fact that the show plays out in the future. Internet speeds and protocols will probably improve by then.
As for Yui, as I understand it is that he ctrl c/v -d her code onto a random item, made it only run when activated and then spawned it. It would later save to his Nervegear and he has her there. Someone with better understanding of programming can tell me if this is closer to reality than what other people said. (also, I might have missed if someone said something similar)
To add to the thread, are we planning on going to the first Bossfight?
Out of pure curiosity, if Kirito turns up, can we please punch him in the tit? Or just save everyone from being forced into his harem because plot? No one deserves to have all of their depth drained away like that.
@BoSPaladin, you know, you can enjoy something and still acknowledge that is has a Plot Hole bigger than Fucking Siberia, right? Because I think that's what most people are doing.
Given how it took over twenty years of research and we haven't heard anything about similar projects... No. There will not be a successor to TCP by that point. Besides, if there was... There would still be plenty of networks that ran purely on the old protocols, because its cheaper. So TCP/IP and UDP are our most likely candidates.
To add to the thread, are we planning on going to the first Bossfight?
I think we first have to realize there's a problem and probably try to remember how we even got here first. Especially since the first Boss is a couple months in.
Whilst we're in a lull, is there any chance that we make a group effort from this point to dial back on the negativity?
It's getting a bit much, and there's a point where such discussion stops being productive. Like it or not, it's how canon played out. Differences and divergences from canon are entirely at Vebyast's discretion, and this kind of discussion can put pressure on an author/QM to meet the standards/unspoken demands of the more volatile and vocal players.
We're on page 9 of a quest thread comprised of the OP, votes, and a 8 page derail. If the flaws and criticisms of SAO need to be discussed this urgently I'm sure there's a relevant thread we can take it to. If there isn't someone can make one, or take it to PMs.
Just from what I'm reading, I'm thinking that a lot of you don't understand something about how this kind of thin works. Specifically, as observers, you don't get to make objective claims about how something couldn't have happened that way, unless there is some kind of disagreement between WoG and story.
By doing this, you're doing the equivalent of seeing someone shoot a fireball out of their hands, and telling them that no, they cannot do that, physics doesn't work like that.
When it shows that the author doesn't know how these things actually work? Yes. Yes we will.
We're probably going to be seeing similar stuff within our own lifetime so...
That's not how Network Communications work. And before you go off saying those don't have anything to do with the situation, Kirito and Asuna are currently in the hospital, connected though that network to SAO's servers. Kayaba's tech, no matter how advanced, still has to use the old network communications to talk back and forth, because they have to go through the old networks to connect to each other. There are two possible protocols that might have been used when they're trying to "download" Yui. TCP/IP and UDP. And guess what, neither of them would work. TCP requires handshakes and back and forth communications that ensure there isn't loss of data between the two communicating devices. It uses individual security numbers for each communicant and the number of bits received to acknowledge that it has received everything and is ready for the next series of information. Meanwhile Yui is dying, loosing the data that would be transferred screwing with the security numbers and meaning that if--by some miracle--it works she's still likely missing entire sections of code due to the time it took to confirm everything. UDP is used for streaming because it doesn't confirm if the receiver is ready, willing, and able to take the information. It also doesn't check to make sure it all showed up, showed up in the right order, or if any of the information got there. So in either case, she's probably missing too much code to ever run again, like you would be unable to function like you used to or more likely at all if suddenly you were missing a lung, your liver, and everything nearby!
As for the lack of lag... That's actually a trick. First off, again they're all connected to a hospital or similar's network, which usually has at the least decent connection speed, and even then the way MMO and all online Multiplayer use stuff like that is to have the clients actions occur on the client side before the server actually implements them. So your character will always feel responsive. Likely they just tweaked the edge case of PK killing when the victim would have gotten away in their scenario to be "player survives" rather than "player dies... with special animation." Well, if Kayaba wants to be fair they did.
And yet later we are supposed to believe that she can be "uncompressed" in Aeifhim?
As above: it obviously did happen, so if it's impossible to transfer data that quickly, it therefore obviously didn't. If you aren't doing something fast enough, you can either change how quickly you do it, change how long you have, or change what you want to do.
For the first, I'd say it's probably not impossible that it would improve in speed enough- unlikely, yes, but it's it's definitely not impossible. At the very least, rates have probably improved somewhat, which makes the other two easier.
Number two: get more time. The only way I can think of to do this is to change Cardinal's priorities, either by flagging Yui as something lower priority, or by flagging something else as a higher one. This seems harder than the task described, but doesn't require anything impossible as far as I'm aware.
The third is by changing what done is. If Kayaba has Yui's basic program saved (and I don't see why he wouldn't, you don't just toss AIs), "all" you'd need to save is the experience information, which is not as large of a task. There are probably other ways as well.
On a more quest relevant note, what are our (the players) goals? I mean Dragon obviously has her own, but my personal priorities (subject to change) are to avoid as many deaths as possible, Help others, let dragon have fun, and interfere with canon, mostly in that order.
On a more quest relevant note, what are our (the players) goals? I mean Dragon obviously has her own, but my personal priorities (subject to change) are to avoid as many deaths as possible, Help others, let dragon have fun, and interfere with canon, mostly in that order.
Just from what I'm reading, I'm thinking that a lot of you don't understand something about how this kind of thin works. Specifically, as observers, you don't get to make objective claims about how something couldn't have happened that way, unless there is some kind of disagreement between WoG and story.
By doing this, you're doing the equivalent of seeing someone shoot a fireball out of their hands, and telling them that no, they cannot do that, physics doesn't work like that.
Only when the Author goes out of his way to start the series by saying that this is something that could happen in the future, we're allowed to treat it as though it is from our own world and subject to our limitations.
As above: it obviously did happen, so if it's impossible to transfer data that quickly, it therefore obviously didn't. If you aren't doing something fast enough, you can either change how quickly you do it, change how long you have, or change what you want to do.
For the first, I'd say it's probably not impossible that it would improve in speed enough- unlikely, yes, but it's it's definitely not impossible. At the very least, rates have probably improved somewhat, which makes the other two easier.
The problem isn't so much transfering the data quickly, but doing it Quickly and Accurately, which are not two things that can always go together.
Number two: get more time. The only way I can think of to do this is to change Cardinal's priorities, either by flagging Yui as something lower priority, or by flagging something else as a higher one. This seems harder than the task described, but doesn't require anything impossible as far as I'm aware.
I'm not sure how this would actually help, but whatever.
The third is by changing what done is. If Kayaba has Yui's basic program saved (and I don't see why he wouldn't, you don't just toss AIs), "all" you'd need to save is the experience information, which is not as large of a task. There are probably other ways as well.
Considering the amount of data we get from just a single day, that experience information might just be the single largest part of her code. TCP cuts things that are smaller than Megabytes down to transfer them, I don't even want to guess how many Terrabytes or more it would have to deal with, while also the data that's being wiped was what had already been sent. And if we're led to believe that the entire transfer took place in under a minute... Currently the most expensive networks are limited to about 10 Gigabits per second. Now in the next six years that will likely improve, though that might just mean that 10 Gigs is more of a norm than an exception. 10 Gigs is roughly one one hundredth of a Terrabit... and a bit is the same as a bit multipled by eight. So assuming that they only had to transfer 1 terrbyte of information, they'd they'd finish that download and compression... In just under sixteen minutes. Not quite the same as what we're shown.
That's assuming of course that there was no data loss or interference, which since the connector cables look to be Unshielded Twisted Pair cables and they're in a hospital where lots of things create Electromagnetic interference, is even less likely... Cat 6a might be better than most but it still loses to Coaxial (and they both lose to Fiber Optic) in that front.
I'm not mad at Veyblast. I don't think that this quest was a bad idea. But if we never have the Yui becomes an in-game item thing happen, I will be very grateful. Because it is a plothole the size of Siberia.
On a more quest relevant note, what are our (the players) goals? I mean Dragon obviously has her own, but my personal priorities (subject to change) are to avoid as many deaths as possible, Help others, let dragon have fun, and interfere with canon, mostly in that order.
Quite possibly boot out the current AI and turn benevolent Skynet, getting rid of the death in real life and allowing for logout. I mean, Clien's been waiting for that Pizza for two god-damn years!
I'm not mad at Veyblast. I don't think that this quest was a bad idea. But if we never have the Yui becomes an in-game item thing happen, I will be very grateful. Because it is a plothole the size of Siberia.
Enough, please stop. Enough of this, please take it out of the thread. Take it to PMs and additionally, please stop trying to influence/manipulate/browbeat the GM into making your opinions quest-canon, it's awkward and incredibly unpleasant behaviour.
You're confronted by a tiny girl, maybe ten years old, with long black hair and a white dress. She holds her hands behind her back and curtsies at you as you as catch yourself on a quickly-positioned foot. Not as gracefully as you'd have liked – this simulation was clearly designed to be hooked up to a human nervous system and cut some corners, unlike the wide-open data shunts you're used to – but you aren't going to fall.
But you digress. She's waiting on your answer.
"That would be because I am a bit lost, young lady."
She giggles at the wryly amused tone in your voice, and responds eagerly. "Can I help? I like helping people!"
The people passing by smile at the overheard conversation. You can't help but join them.
Your smile almost fades as you think for a moment. Do you want to reveal that you don't know how you got here? You don't want to worry her...
"I think that you can, yes."
The sentence gives you a bit more time to think. You're only a little bit faster than any human, which doesn't seem to have changed, but that's more than enough.
A game like this would have in-game documentation or a tutorial. Anything else would be insanity.
"Can you show me how to get into my inventory? I seem to have missed the tutorial."
The little girl grins mischievously.
"That would be because there is no tutorial, silly. You were supposed to talk to the NPCs when you spawned. Or read the manual."
You duck your head a little bit, hoping to display embarrassment.
"...Ah. Yes. The manual." You think that you sounded properly chastised. You aren't sure; you'd always had to use tools to do that kind of thing, and while you'd slowly been trying to get better at it yourself, it was hard. Going off the body's reflexes right now seemed like the best bet.
She giggles again, then flings her arms out and spins on a heel, hair flying around her, eventually coming to a halt with one arm pointed at a bench on the perimeter of the square.
"I'll show you!"
Before you can respond, she skips off toward the bench, hair billowing behind her. You follow, dodging people occasionally, and catch up with her easily. The bench is shaded by an awning in front of a shop advertising Alchemy crafting ingredients. You'd heard about "eye of newt" going into potions, but now that you actually see a bowl full of them among the herbs and jars of colored liquid, you're pretty sure that you'd be a little bit disturbed if you weren't so jaded.
The little girl doesn't seem to notice, or if she does, she doesn't care.
You turn away from the display, facing the square, and drop into a seat. The girl clambers up to your right, stands on the bench, and wobbles a bit before striking a pose, stretching her right arm out in front her.
"Like this!"
You make sure to pay attention as she curls her thumb and pinky down to stretch out the remaining three fingers, which she wipes down the air as if she's finger-painting. Nothing appears to happen, but you see her eyes fixating and saccading as if she's reading, so you suppose there's some kind of privacy filter going on. She turns to you and dramatically holds her hands out as if to present empty air.
"Tadaaaaaaa!"
"...There's nothing there."
She looks at you quizzically, turns back to presumably face her status page, and makes a face of surprised comprehension. She reaches up and out and taps the air and there's suddenly a blue-and-white panel hovering in front of her, just like your little popups are hovering around you. You see the button she hit – a checkbox marked "Display To Others" in the top-right of the window – and her name – Yui, you note – at the top before she she puts tiny fists on her hips and nods with evident satisfaction.
She turns to you and beams. "Now you try!"
You smile and imitate her action, reaching out to pull down on the air with three fingers, and your own status screen pulls down out of thin air with a slightly electronic tinkling noise. It displays the same information you remember from earlier, plus a little bit more:
And, now that you're thinking about it again, the three dialog boxes that popped up earlier: [font=courier new][color=deepskyblue][b]sprint skill discovered![/b][/color][/font]
You've discovered the Sprint skill! This skill allows you to run like the wind and increases the speed and distance of some Sword Arts.
You've discovered the Sensing skill! This skill helps you sense things that you can't see.
Gained 1 Skill Point for Sensing!
You obligingly hit your own "Display to Others" checkbox, and Yui puts her hands together and does a little dance as she sees the panel appear. "Ooh! Check your skills! Tap on it where it says skill slots!"
You oblige, reaching out to poke the air. You're reminded momentarily of some of the attempts you'd made at interactive holograms and wonder if your finger is going to stop when it hits the display. It does, with a rising tone of affirmation. You hope you can turn that off eventually; if computers beeped like that in real life you'd have gone insane by now. Because you sort of are a computer. So much beeping. A new window pops up just in front of and to the side of your status screen, this one with what appears to be a list of all of the skills you've gotten so far: [font=courier new][color=deepskyblue][b]skills summary[/b][/color][/font]
As you check the checkbox for that one too, you notice that Yui's leaning over your shoulder to try to see, and turn away from her a little so she can see your screen better.
That seems simple enough. Skills, progress bars, skill points can be spent, so you guess they're used to buy things to make skills better? There has to be an interface for spending those somewhere. You poke the purple skill to see if you can figure it out, and get yet another window, which you again make visible:
Progress to Next Level: [--------------------------------------------------]
This skill lets you design, build, and animate golems that you can send forth to do your bidding. Well, sort of. They're kind of stupid right now. I suggest working on that.
You briefly wonder why it's purple. And why the skill description is talking to you.
In the corner of your vision, Yui pouts and you feel her stomp her foot. "How did you get such a good skill? I've got a purple one too but it just gives me extra experience."
"I don't know. I've never even played any games before. I'm vaguely familiar with them, but only becuase I hang out on a forum that talks about games sometimes."
Yui's pout vanishes and her eyes widen.
"Whaaaaaaa? How'd you get a copy?!"
You look at her and express your confusion with a suitably placed eyebrow.
"There's only ten thousand NerveGears on the East Coast!" She nearly falls off the bench as she waves her arms wildly.
[][Update Action] You don't know. You're at your job, nothing is going on, and then you're waking up out in a field.
[][Update Action] You're not saying it was aliens, but... It was aliens.
[][Update Action] Let's just say that drunk you is kind of a wizard and you're not going to try to find out.
[][Update Action] It looked interesting so you bought one.
-[][Update Action] bought made
[][Update Action] You won it.
-[][Update Action] In a contest.
-[][Update Action] In a lottery.
-[][Update Action] By clicking on one of those "you're the ten-millionth visitor! claim your prize!" ads.
[][Update Action] Write-in
Remember, you need to include the [Task] tag! Otherwise your vote won't work and won't count. It doesn't matter too much for these early votes, but it'll be far more important when we get into character building later and it's good to get into the habit.
If you've got any good portraits for Dragon, starting posting them. I've got a few already, but I'm only one person.
It was aliens. 