Deus Pater (Exalted/40k)

[RookDeSuit]

Hmm...

Expose the Guilty feels a tad paranoid even if it's true in this case, but that feels like an Inquisitor's job. Someone else also brought up the fact that any priest who brought up Hereticus knew the most likely outcome. That being anywhere from the death of thousands to the planet. Not sure if any person would willingly repent.

Preaching to the Choirs feels like our Caradinal will end up pandering his theological doctrine to placate the masses, both in the church and the greater Imperium.

 

[Hakazin]

[X] Expose the Guilty. You cannot have enemies lurking unnoticed within your own priesthood. Prioritize identifying out the ones who have worked actively against you, and offer them the chance to repent before their peers.

 

[Mina]

And yet we are going to "Smooth over the divisions that lead to the call for the Hereticus"?

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Yes, because we can.

Ignatius can be better. It's clear the local Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy are straying and falling in to secular corruption and sin. He's stopped the Inquisition from exacting a collective punishment on his people, why emulate their path and substitute his putative divinity for their lust for control and tithes? They are his flock. Some have strayed, but better to bring them back in to the fold than jump right in to deeper, darker water of our own Inquisition or divine crusade.

 

[Terran Imperium]

[X] Ignite the Soul. You know better than most the unifying power of faith. Prioritize the clergy's acceptance of you as a divine icon, and they will follow you into the depths of the foulest hell if their duty so requires.

 

[Gamefreak1ed]

[X] Expose the Guilty. You cannot have enemies lurking unnoticed within your own priesthood. Prioritize identifying out the ones who have worked actively against you, and offer them the chance to repent before their peers.

 

[colah]

[X] Ignite the Soul. You know better than most the unifying power of faith. Prioritize the clergy's acceptance of you as a divine icon, and they will follow you into the depths of the foulest hell if their duty so requires.

I'd also be OK with Expose. Strategically voting for Ignite because it seems in the lead.

I agree with @ctulhuslp - Corruption is not acceptable. Calling Hereticus was not acceptable.

To me, the appealing thing about bring Exalted into a setting like 40K is the opportunity to actually do the right thing and not compromise in an incredibly dark setting.

I'd like it if we didn't get stuck trying to reform the church from the inside and instead led by example: Let all the Emperor's children be emboldened by us as we lead them to slay the Xeno. We may preach a different creed, but at the base we still believe the same things, let us not try to convine others by words but by action: we will continue the Emperor's Great Plan for humanity, and drag the church to a new era by sheer force of will and achievement, not by debate.

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Note that our strengths as a Zenith and background as a Cardinal play really strongly into reforming the Imperium. Maugan has previous quests that went other directions, like his first Exalted/40K one that was military focused.

I agree with you on the actual vote, though.

 

[ctulhuslp]

Yes, because we can.

Ignatius can be better. It's clear the local Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy are straying and falling in to secular corruption and sin. He's stopped the Inquisition from exacting a collective punishment on his people, why emulate their path and substitute his putative divinity for their lust for control and tithes? They are his flock. Some have strayed, but better to bring them back in to the fold than jump right in to deeper, darker water of our own Inquisition or divine crusade.

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Because the phrasing of the vote is not "bring back to the fold". It's "smooth out the differences".

I voted for Mercy for Inquisitor in previous vote because of the logic similar to yours here. But if the vote on Mercy was on any sort of compromise with him aside from him repenting and changing his ways entirely, I'd rather vote to execute him.


If you want them to repent and to change their ways, to show that they are wrong - your vote should be Expose the Guilty. It's explcitly about repenting and making the stray ones reform.

Preaching to the Choir, as the name implies and text confirms, is letting murder of the innocent flock slide for the sake of "unity". It's ignoring the straying, it's letting corrupt get away with calling Hereticus on us and, more importantly, on innocents.


Like, again. The guilty are not just stealing money or whatnot, that'd be peanuts. They are guilty of premediated cold-blooded murder of innocent people. That they did it with hands of others changes nothing.

 

[TenfoldShields]

Yes, because we can.

Ignatius can be better. It's clear the local Ordo Hereticus and Ecclesiarchy are straying and falling in to secular corruption and sin. He's stopped the Inquisition from exacting a collective punishment on his people, why emulate their path and substitute his putative divinity for their lust for control and tithes? They are his flock. Some have strayed, but better to bring them back in to the fold than jump right in to deeper, darker water of our own Inquisition or divine crusade.

Click to shrink...

That's honestly part of why I really want to settle the issue of the informant up front I think. Expose it at the beginning when everything's still sorta malleable and forming. To deal with it and reconcile with it rather than having it as a constant sword over our heads, wondering who it was, who we can trust, are they going to do it again, etc etc. To set that precedent of mercy and consolidation, and so that whoever it was isn't, like, living in baseless anxiety and possible resentment 'cause those make people do stupid things.

"It was the only way! You never would have forgiven me once you knew I was responsible! I had to strike first!"
"...Yes I would've?"
"...Oh. (Whoops.)"

Expose the Guilty feels a tad paranoid even if it's true in this case, but that feels like an Inquisitor's job. Someone else also brought up the fact that any priest who brought up Hereticus knew the most likely outcome. That being anywhere from the death of thousands to the planet. Not sure if any person would willingly repent.

Click to shrink...

It's an extraordinary situation far beyond the purview of the "normal" highly ranked priest and this is far from the most likely set of outcomes re: Inquistion investigation.

 

[Corian]

[X] Expose the Guilty. You cannot have enemies lurking unnoticed within your own priesthood. Prioritize identifying out the ones who have worked actively against you, and offer them the chance to repent before their peers.

They don't necessarily need to be killed, but it's important to find out if they did it because they were corrupt and ambitious, or if it was because they actually thought it was the right thing to do to depose us and burn our heretical flock. Most importantly though is the need to be unrelenting in our attempt to fix the corruption in the ecclesiarchy. The Imperium is massive, and if we go soft on every issue then it will never be healed.

My thoughts for the future?

Firstly get our own house in order. Gain the loyalty of the Sororitas and the Imperial Navy, and make sure that the church here preaches in a way of which we approve.

Secondly we should expand. We are not yet prepared to march into the halls of Holy Terra and upturn the tables of the Ecclesiarchy. What we can do however is to gain experience fixing our sector of space. I reckon we should gather a group of Sororitas, get in a ship and start fixing the problems of our sector, one planet at a time. We should heal the sick, punch out the corrupt, and teach all of the planets of a better way to live in the Imperium.

 

[ctulhuslp]

It's an extraordinary situation far beyond the purview of the "normal" highly ranked priest and this is far from the most likely set of outcomes.

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Not really.

As was discussed sometime earlier, Inquisition having technically unlimited powers means nothing without political agreement of powers that be to let Inquisition work.

For this stunt, Inquisitor must have had a measure of support from both our superiors and subordinates.

So they might not have knows specifics, but they were aware of the gist of events to unfold.

edit: and, like, when they called Hereticus here, they probably did not think it'd end in slap on the wrist and unofficial reprimand, y'know?

 

[TenfoldShields]

Not really.

As was discussed sometime earlier, Inquisition having technically unlimited powers means nothing without political agreement of powers that be to let Inquisition work.

For this stunt, Inquisitor must have had a measure of support from both our superiors and subordinates.

So they might not have knows specifics, but they were aware of the gist of events to unfold.

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Ah nah rereading I see how I worded it badly. I was trying to say that re: "person being unwilling to repent" that the whole "Anointed son of the God Emperor backhands the Inquisitor and sends him off to Terra with his tail between his legs" is usually not how this shit goes. And that that kinda thing is the sort of thing that makes a person reconsider a whole host of other things. So the "but they won't repent tho" argument is sorta a. plausible but unlikely I think and b. ancillary to the larger argument about publicly dealing with this mindset and incentives.

 

[Imrix]

[X] Expose the Guilty. You cannot have enemies lurking unnoticed within your own priesthood. Prioritize identifying out the ones who have worked actively against you, and offer them the chance to repent before their peers.

 

[spiritualatheist]

[X] Expose the Guilty

 

[fictionfan]

[x] Expose the Guilty. You cannot have enemies lurking unnoticed within your own priesthood. Prioritize identifying out the ones who have worked actively against you, and offer them the chance to repent before their peers.

I want to get one of those charms that allows us to always know if someone working for us betrays us.

 

[Powerofmind]

Both preach and ignite tacitly approve of and encourage backbiting, blackmail, and sedition. Primarily because neither one of them directly associates any kind of punitive action for being a sociopathic asshat who damned a planet, dozens of their immediate colleagues and supposed friends, and their boss for a scrap of personal power. It just changes the uppermost place in the hierarchy to "immediately beneath Ignatius" rather than "in Ignatius' place".

 

[Mina]

Because the phrasing of the vote is not "bring back to the fold". It's "smooth out the differences".

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It's a difference without distinction as I read it. They may not agree with everything, but the root cause that drew the Ordo Hereticus down on the planet won't exist. I'm not voting for Expose because again it's centering loyalty to Ingatius over the gospel like Ignite the Soul focuses on his personal divinity.

 

[toxinvictory]

[X] Expose the Guilty. You cannot have enemies lurking unnoticed within your own priesthood. Prioritize identifying out the ones who have worked actively against you, and offer them the chance to repent before their peers.

 

[Zaealix]

Hrrm.
I'm torn.
Because []Expose is super-tempting, get the bad out of our house so the rest can survive and thrive? Sounds good, knowing the enemies MUST come from without rather then within is quite the advantage.
Though...
On the flipside we will need to take []Smooth over- esque actions at some point as we gain in influence and range...
Yeah. Smooth over is tempting but it also kind of feels like now isn't quite the right time- it might not be differences in opinion but politics, by the sounds of how our MC described the inquisition getting called on him...

[X] Expose the Guilty. You cannot have enemies lurking unnoticed within your own priesthood. Prioritize identifying out the ones who have worked actively against you, and offer them the chance to repent before their peers.

This feels prudent in the short term- i.e now, so long as we get a shot to alter our stance with these actions later I'm okay with doing this for now-we can't afford dissent, especially if the Ruinous Powers take notice.

 

[ctulhuslp]

I am sort of iffy about the exact phrasing of "Expose the Guilty" here, as it should be not (only) about dealing with our enemies here, but also about the wider picture of corrupted and fearful culture.

It's a difference without distinction as I read it. They may not agree with everything, but the root cause that drew the Ordo Hereticus down on the planet won't exist. I'm not voting for Expose because again it's centering loyalty to Ingatius over the gospel like Ignite the Soul focuses on his personal divinity.

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You are kinda dancing around the fact they committed plenty of souls to oblivion via this stunt and they knew what they were doing..
Like, it's not minor doctrinal difference that is the problem, it's some opportunist bastards using shady mass murderers to "solve" intra-faith debates. Or, more likely, to remove their superior and get a shot at Cardinalship.


It's not about "agreement", it's about them being indirect accomplices in mass murder.

 

[Powerofmind]

This is arguably a vote on how we handle philosophical issues like internal corruption and climbing on the backs of comrades for station. Is it punished, do we try to zeal them so hard they hopefully think of it as anathema, or do we just take the position of the imperial church at large with regard to it, that being "so long as you say the right rhetoric, I'm sure it's fine".

 

[ctulhuslp]

Alright, seems Expose is pulling ahead, and as I have no actual strong commitment to posing as divine icon ourselves (in this particular instance; given that it's pretty much a fact, we probably should lean into it sometime later),

[X] Expose the Guilty. You cannot have enemies lurking unnoticed within your own priesthood. Prioritize identifying out the ones who have worked actively against you, and offer them the chance to repent before their peers.

 

[Aze]

[X] Expose the Guilty. You cannot have enemies lurking unnoticed within your own priesthood. Prioritize identifying out the ones who have worked actively against you, and offer them the chance to repent before their peers.

 

[fictionfan]

You are kinda dancing around the fact they committed plenty of souls to oblivion via this stunt and they knew what they were doing..
Like, it's not minor doctrinal difference that is the problem, it's some opportunist bastards using shady mass murderers to "solve" intra-faith debates. Or, more likely, to remove their sup

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So we are giving them a chance to repent their sins before execution. (Or sending them on a sucidal mission that might as well be execution.)

 

[Mina]

Both preach and ignite tacitly approve of and encourage backbiting, blackmail, and sedition.

Click to shrink...

I would tentatively agree for Ignite (focusing on mobilizing a fanatical elect), and actually for Expose would seem to encourage naming of names, tossing rivals in to face 'justice' and give those opposed to Ingatius the opportunity to escalate by not repenting.

Also, again, not comfortable with 'repent for working against me.'

It's not about "agreement", it's about them being indirect accomplices in mass murder.

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Which was stopped, and which is sadly par for the course in the Imperium. I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this, but I'm not for implementing a personal Inquisition or Frateris right off the bat.

 

[ctulhuslp]

So we are giving them a chance to repent their sins before execution. (Or sending them on a sucidal mission that might as well be execution.)

Click to shrink...

Ehhhh.
I would rather give them a shot at genuine remorse and repention, really. OTOH there probably have to be consequences for this kinda of thing.


I'd say that poetic justice would be sending them to work as local low-level missionaries in the communities they wanted to destroy, to let them fix what damage they have done. Then, after they are done, give them a chance to get back? Something like this.

Which was stopped, and which is sadly par for the course in the Imperium. I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this, but I'm not for implementing a personal Inquisition or Frateris right off the bat.

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Which is not the text of the vote? It says "offer them option to repent in front of peers", not "execute on spot".

And like. "Mass murder does not count if it was stopped" is kinda a weird approach to take. Especially since it was not completely stopped and at least some were killed before Ignatius went out to deck the Inquisitor.