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Deus Pater (Exalted/40k)

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Susano said:
The Adeptus Terra are, as the name says, largely on Terra. The Imperium is a a strange mix of totalitarianism and feudalism, and as such political authority is exerted through the planetary governments, which in most cases seems to mean nobles. Basically, you are trying to argue that US state governments are not part of the government structure and established order of the USA. They are not the federal government, true - but they are part of the same structure.
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I honestly am not sure how will it work in this quest.

Way I see it, "canon" Imperium is a quantum mix of totalitarianism and HRE-in-space that makes little sense. It can be some sort of mix of traits of both, but it cannot be both at the same time. So anything set in 40k should decide for itself where between those two exactly its Imperium lies.
 
ctulhuslp said:
I honestly am not sure how will it work in this quest.

Way I see it, "canon" Imperium is a quantum mix of totalitarianism and HRE-in-space that makes little sense. It can be some sort of mix of traits of both, but it cannot be both at the same time. So anything set in 40k should decide for itself where between those two exactly its Imperium lies.
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IMO, it can work. Maybe not realistically so, but well, 40k has at best a nodding acquaintance with realism, anyway. Political authority is exerted through the local nobles, but it is expected of them to push the totalitarian North Korea in space line, "aided" by Ecclesiarchy, Arbites, etc. That means that local authorities can basically subvert the totalitarian line, but they must at least appear to uphold it, or they'll get whacked from higher above on the chain of authority.

At least, that is how I'd see things.
 
Susano said:
IMO, it can work. Maybe not realistically so, but well, 40k has at best a nodding acquaintance with realism, anyway. Political authority is exerted through the local nobles, but it is expected of them to push the totalitarian North Korea in space line, "aided" by Ecclesiarchy, Arbites, etc. That means that local authorities can basically subvert the totalitarian line, but they must at least appear to uphold it, or they'll get whacked from higher above on the chain of authority.

At least, that is how I'd see things.
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So, administratively decentralized to HRE degree, but culturally totalitarian enough that every subpolity is totalitarian? With some degree of state security apparatus with teeth being menacing in direction of those who do things otherwise?

Eh. I guess it works.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Which is why Chaos needed decades-long plans which would have crumbled into dust if Big E was actually a good father and Primarchs were capable of communication, yes.

Alternatively, given that Chaos did need tons of pawns, complicated plans and all, and that, say, Sisters are all but immune to it, I assume that it's not omnipotent.
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Chaos needed decade long plans because big E, Malcador and the rest weren't complete idiots and the Primarchs weren't exactly all that easy to corrupt.

And of course Chaos isn't omnipotent. You don't need to be omnipotent to screw the IoM - you just need to kick hard enough in the right places at the right time (which is sort of easy for eldritch abominations that don't view time linearly).

Susano said:
The Adeptus Terra are, as the name says, largely on Terra. The Imperium is a a strange mix of totalitarianism and feudalism, and as such political authority is exerted through the planetary governments, which in most cases seems to mean nobles. Basically, you are trying to argue that US state governments are not part of the government structure and established order of the USA. They are not the federal government, true - but they are part of the same structure.
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The Adeptus Terra are the Administratum, Arbites, Imperial Guard & Navy, etc. They're certainly not limited to Terra but they don't do the day to day work of actually running the IoM's planets. Like the Ad Mech and the Ecclesiarchy - which are the two independent IoM wide organisations that are explicitly not under the Adeptus Terra likely have more of a say in local politics than the Administratum.

Also US state governments are distinct from the Federal Government and the Fed Gov has legal limits on how much it can push states.
 
If a Solar couldn't change the Imperium this quest wouldn't exist.

Seriously, people, stop and actually read what you're writing, for fuck's sake. If what you are saying is that this Quest is based on a futile premise, you're wrong. Like, think about it more than not at all, please!
 
Susano said:
Sure, but it also says:

If you want to argue narrative structure, "setting DNA", then I would counter that the entire point of 40k is to present a dystopia on steroids, where absolutely everything sucks, there are no good sides and there aren't even helpful sides. Yes, Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids, Dark Eldars and Orcs are all much worse than the Imperium - but the Imperium isn't really helping against them. As I see it, part of the overarching dystopia is that humanity is preyed on by all sides, and in addition its own state is a North Korea on steroids in space which only makes everything even worse. The Imperium is not a necessity. The Imperium is not hard men making hard decisions. The Imperium is only just adding to the dystopia.

So, that is how I see the "setting DNA". Of course, that is an out-of-universe consideration - a different consideration from an in-universe one.

Plus, staying on the narrative level, well, defiance to me sounds like the most straight up satisfying option. We will win, or we will gloriously die in a righteous fight.
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This was a while back, but it's a kind of a fundamental point so I'll return to it.

Suppose you are stranded in the middle of a boat in a stormy ocean, inside a leaky old boat which is slowly filling with water. It was a solid boat once, maybe, but now it has rotting wooden planks, and is stabbing you in the back with rusty nails. That's the Imperium. This does not mean that, if you took the boat away, you would be dry.

Likewise, you cannot say in good faith that if you simply took the Imperium away, humanity would be safe. It is simply absurd to suggest that when literally every depiction of the universe shows threats that are only barely held in check as things stand. The fact that the space the Imperium occupies stops the existence of other, theoretical, much better organisations which could do the same job doesn't mean that if it collapsed tomorrow, things would be fine. Which is what we're actually discussing.

And that's the tragedy of the Imperium. It is dysfunctional. It often makes things worse around it simply by being there. It is unequal. It is slowly failing. It is terrible, in the Biblical sense. But it is also the only thing protecting the bulk of humanity, and this is a fundamental part of its tragedy, because it prevents an easy way out for the setting. If you could simply blow up the Imperium and everything would be fixed like the end of Return of the Jedi, the horror of 40k as a setting, and the moving heroism of people trying to hold back the encroaching darkness a little longer, would be vastly reduced.

This discussion has literally given me a headache so I'm going to take a minute to stand up and go and have a Lemsip and make supper.
 
Susano said:
And you'll note that Manus didn't reply to the QM, but to a poster claiming that the Imperium "isn't that bad".
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That's why I'm so frustrated. I feel like the conversation has been derailed.

And this is kinda connected with the vote, anyway: If you think the Imperium is largely alright, just needs some corrections, you will opt for a reformist course. If you think the Imperium is fully bad, reformism might not be enough for you.
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Nope. Vote is for how we sell our massive heresy. Defiant doesn't lock us out of reformist. Philosophical doesn't lock us into reformist.

ctulhuslp said:
I honestly am not sure how will it work in this quest.

Way I see it, "canon" Imperium is a quantum mix of totalitarianism and HRE-in-space that makes little sense. It can be some sort of mix of traits of both, but it cannot be both at the same time. So anything set in 40k should decide for itself where between those two exactly its Imperium lies.
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The way I model it: imagine a fascist nation. Now imagine that each citizen of that fascist nation was running their own fascist nation on the side.
 
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This is beyond bad civ. Let's not do this.
  • Staff Post
    • whoa there bud
    Rjrulew said:
    Then Kill yourself if you find yourself there but dont do something that would get worlds Blammed just because you want to stand on a soapbox
    So you want to make it easier and also Guillimans been making it slightly better
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    I'm gonna have to stop you there. I don't really care what the context is, you don't tell anyone to go kill themselves.

    So take 25 and a timeout. And don't do it again.
     
  • Staff Post
    • On a very unrelated note, does anyone believe that one of our stretch goals could be reviving the Emperor?

    I mean, as we grow in power as an Exalted shouldn't it be possible?
     
    [X] Defiance. Established doctrine is wrong, and the words of the Ecclesiarchy a betrayal of the God they claim to revere. Such a clean break makes further changes a lot easier to introduce, but makes you much more vulnerable to accusations of heresy and invites direct opposition.

    I'm not confident about any strategy relying on a change from within when the system needing change is as warped as the Imperium.
     
    invictus1829 said:
    On a very unrelated note, does anyone believe that one of our stretch goals could be reviving the Emperor?

    I mean, as we grow in power as an Exalted shouldn't it be possible?
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    Depends if he's technically all the way dead or not. Exalts have a hard stop on reviving the dead (although a Liminal based on Emps would be... interesting). Mostly dead, with enough Medicine... maybe?
     
    Admiral Skippy said:
    Suppose you are stranded in the middle of a boat in a stormy ocean, inside a leaky old boat which is slowly filling with water. It was a solid boat once, maybe, but now it has rotting wooden planks, and is stabbing you in the back with rusty nails. That's the Imperium. This does not mean that, if you took the boat away, you would be dry.

    Likewise, you cannot say in good faith that if you simply took the Imperium away, humanity would be safe. It is simply absurd to suggest that when literally every depiction of the universe shows threats that are only barely held in check as things stand. The fact that the space the Imperium occupies stops the existence of other, theoretical, much better organisations which could do the same job doesn't mean that if it collapsed tomorrow, things would be fine. Which is what we're actually discussing.
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    I don't think this is a fair analogy. For one, it presupposes that annexing parts of the Imperium to rebuild them free from the oppressive interference of Imperial oversight is analogous to the entire boat disappearing. It also ignores how many of the threats in the galaxy both are and continue to be the Imperium's fault. I assert that Susano is fundamentally correct that the Imperium adds to rather than withstands the dystopian universe. How many times has an Inquisitor turned rogue and gone off the deep end with some nefarious scheme? How many times have planetary governers bowed to the selection pressures of their job and become a corrupt liability? How many times have people rebelled against the abuses the Imperium levies against them and turned to malicious forces out of ignorance and desparation?

    Basically, no, I continue to assert that the Imperium is not a necessity.
     
    Zero Gravitas said:
    Also US state governments are distinct from the Federal Government and the Fed Gov has legal limits on how much it can push states.
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    Which I acknowledged. But if I were to say that the USA is evil and needs to be destroyed, then this wouldn't just cover the federal government. The state governments are part of the political structure I just (in this hypothetical comparison; I have not actually that negative feelings about the USA) declared evil and in need of destruction, after all. The same applies to the Imperium.

    Admiral Skippy said:
    If you could simply blow up the Imperium and everything would be fixed like the end of Return of the Jedi, the horror of 40k as a setting, and the moving heroism of people trying to hold back the encroaching darkness a little longer, would be vastly reduced.
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    Oh well yes - that won't happen. But largely because the Imperium can't just be destroyed by the flip of a switch like in RotJ. That the Imperium is so vast, omnipresent (if in very fractured form) and all around oppressive, that you cannot flee the reach of the tyranny, that is an integral part of the setting after all: There is no hope. And that doesn't only go for Tyranid invasions or Necron awakenings, but also for Imperial authority.

    So the question is never "Do I push this button and poof, no Imperium anymore?" anyway, as your post kinda implied. The question isn't even about the Imperium as a whole anyway. Your earlier posts argued that there is no time for a long, bloody and vast struggle against the Imperium, as humanity is threatened on all sides. But that is IMO based on the wrong assumption: That we can save all of humanity. But I don't think we can. There is no grand masterplan towards that end. That would be the ending of RotJ then. All we can do is act within our sphere of authority. And that means the question becomes:

    Within our Sphere of Authority, is it more advantageous for us to break up the Imperial structures, risking massive Imperial invasions etc, or to toe the line and stay with a rotten system that's making everything even worse? And I think the answer is the former.

    I hope this didn't contribute further to your headaches, but yeah, that's how I see it.
     
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    thamuzz said:
    @Imrix
    Not. What. The. Vote. Is. About.
    Philosophical doesn't lock us out of seceding. Defiant doesn't lock us into seceding.
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    Well, to bring it back to just that:

    I think @Cetashwayo has the right of it. First of all, we must move things, and that against the resistance of millennia of inertia. For that, we do need firebrands, we do need fanaticism, we do need... well, Defiance. The willingness to fight for what is right, even if the struggle might seem doomed. That doesn't lock us out of reformism, but we can still do political manoeuvring later on. For now, we must first create the right attitude to push back against all the inertia.
     
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    Alectai said:
    The Imperium's greatest flaw is that it was founded during a period where you had to compromise at every turn so as not to fall behind one of the rapidly hegemonizing super xeno swarms that were all over the place, because the alternative was being eaten or enslaved to a man.


    And then the founders collapsed without leaving protocols for succession behind. Meaning that the poor schlubs who came afterwards considered this to be the ideal state, rather than a shitty alpha build that was pushed into production as a stopgap because a shitty solution that worked was better than no solution at all.

    That's the biggest tragedy of it all. The fact that the entire system attempts to maintain a full mobilization when full mobilization hasn't been necessary for years.
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    Tyrannids, Orks, Black Crusade...

    I have a few more, But I disagree with the "We don't need to mobilize" bit. There are a lot of threats.
     
    Imrix said:
    I don't think this is a fair analogy. For one, it presupposes that annexing parts of the Imperium to rebuild them free from the oppressive interference of Imperial oversight is analogous to the entire boat disappearing. It also ignores how many of the threats in the galaxy both are and continue to be the Imperium's fault. I assert that Susano is fundamentally correct that the Imperium adds to rather than withstands the dystopian universe. How many times has an Inquisitor turned rogue and gone off the deep end with some nefarious scheme? How many times have planetary governers bowed to the selection pressures of their job and become a corrupt liability? How many times have people rebelled against the abuses the Imperium levies against them and turned to malicious forces out of ignorance and desparation?
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    That presumes independent polities would do better instead of worse. That's a big presumption.

    Susano said:
    Within our Sphere of Authority, is it more advantageous for us to break up the Imperial structures, risking massive Imperial invasions etc, or to toe the line and stay with a rotten system that's making everything even worse? And I think the answer is the latter.
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    It should be noted that there's a question of defining our sphere of authority. Becoming the Ecclesiarchy's top dog will be hard but it should be very possible in a IoM reasonable timeframe and we could do a lot of good in that position for pretty much everyone in the IoM. Yes, it would mean acting less directly on other matters at least at first - but I personally feel that's a reasonable trade off.
     
    A summary of my read of the votes:
    The Ecclesiarch points at us and yells "HERETIC!"

    Defiant: We point back and yell "VANDIRE 2.0!"
    Revelation: We glow at him really brightly and yell "The Emperor says I'm right!"
    Philosophical: We hold up a book, point at a passage and yell "No you!"
     
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