This got posted up in the thread earlier but I want to repost it now, since it kind of gets at the heart of what's going on here for me. Here's the thing about this kind of game: you can't make a game about systemic oppression and dehumanization of a class of people, set it in Detroit, and then turn your mind away from the politics of that message. Because that's not some fantasy. That's Detroit. That's what it's looked like. That's what it looks like.
The politics of the game and the real-life comparisons are inescapable. You can't tell an apolitical story of oppression like this about Detroit. At least, you can't tell a story that many people won't get politics out of. As an artist, David Cage has a responsibility to understand the context of the city he's setting his game in and the world in which it's going to be received. But he's choosing to step away from that because of... reasons.
At best, it's insensitive, self-important and offensive. At worst, it's pure artistic cowardice stemming from a refusal to engage with the inextricable themes and comparisons intrinsic to this work because of his self-aggrandizing sense of politique.
I just read the excerpt of the interview you quoted, @Nikkolas , and maybe I'm being fairly uncharitable here...
But quite frankly, it sounds like he's promising something he cannot deliver.
"Oh, this is the [entire] game." Each scene is different and the meaning is absolutely not binary. Don't take away from this scene that it's going to be, "[Do] you want to be violent or pacifist?" because that's not what the game is about. The game is much more complex than that and you show all the complexity and the repercussions of your choices, on opinion, on media, on your people, and being violent is not the wrong thing or the right thing. It's not about being right or wrong, it's really questioning what would you do if you had to fight for your rights and it's one of many questions in the game.
I don't think he'll be able to deliver this in a satisfying way. Not with the amount of effort that goes into animating these scenes, voicing dialogue, and developing a branching plotline with several different endings where "everything matters". I'm fairly convinced that this story will be quite linear, minor differences in plot decisions and plot divergences aside. Because we know the kind of games that allow for a great complexity of plot and branching plotlines -- they're unvoiced visual novels or RPGs that have massive amounts of text and very little interactive gameplay during dialogue. A game with the level and effort put into animating the scenes as seen in the trailer, fully voice-acted, and with "interactive" gameplay? No chance.
And I'll repeat what I said before: I quite honestly don't trust Cage to write pseudo-race or disenfrachisement issues well. He doesn't know how to write policemen, he doesn't know how to write romance, he doesn't know how to write a compelling mystery... So why I should trust that he'll write faux-race robot discrimination issues well? Having been in Paris during the Bataclan and being scared by it means fuck-all when it comes to writing issues like this. Many people were, but that doesn't mean you'll write a story sensitive to the underlying themes of these issues.
I'll remain skeptical about this game until proven otherwise. If I want to play a good game about rebellion against an oppressive society, I'll spend my money on Persona 5 first.
And I'll repeat what I said before: I quite honestly don't trust Cage to write race issues well. He doesn't know how to write policemen, he doesn't know how to write romance, he doesn't know how to write a compelling mystery... So why I should trust that he'll write faux-race robot discrimination issues well? Having been in Paris during the Bataclan and being scared by it means fuck-all when it comes to writing issues like this.
Some people have also pointed out that Detroit has an accidental pro-life message. Because the robots aren't sapient by default and in fact Malcolm ZX Advent has to infect all those display models with some kind of virus to make them so. But because that potential is there to make them sapient it is now the moral imperative to make sure that every last one of them can be 'born'.
Don't you dare abort that android or it's down to Robot Hell with you.
If I want to play a good game about rebellion against an oppressive society, I'll spend my money on Persona 5 first.
This got posted up in the thread earlier but I want to repost it now, since it kind of gets at the heart of what's going on here for me. Here's the thing about this kind of game: you can't make a game about systemic oppression and dehumanization of a class of people, set it in Detroit, and then turn your mind away from the politics of that message.
Yeah, heard about that. Mind, at least with with Persona 5 I know I'll give a 100+ hours of actual gameplay and clear storyline, so I'll still take that over Detroit.
That was the writer of the Handmaid's Tale, and she explained that position, in that it was based on her imagery of what feminism was about (Bra-burning, anti-men, etc.)
That is not what is happening here. In 2017 we already have games that are made by AAA developers that don't play with that illusion. Are you telling me that Cage is more afraid of fallout from nerds then Ubisoft and 2k Games?
But I think it's perfectly fair to point out the obvious flaw in the argument "Cage's games are unnecessary now we have these other games" is that these other games have different appeal.
Hey so here is what we keep trying to tell you but you keep trying to avoid: David Cage makes adventure games. He likes to pretend he doesn't, but he does. He desperately tries to stick doodads and gewgaws onto them to distract from the fact that they are in fact, just adventure games. That is the overarching type of game that they are and so we can in fact point out all the various failings of them as adventure games. You can warble on about how its not the same genre and genre expectations, but after decrying that people keep discounting his games being games, you seem really hesitant to acknowledge the criticisms of them as games.
They aren't good adventure games and they aren't as unique as he likes to pretend.
The guy makes big budget adventure games and pretends he's Sergei Eisenstein, Jean-Luc Goddard and George Lucas wrapped up into one super human man on the hill, when he's a complete hack. He's always lecturing the game industry on things they know or trying to pretend he's not making games except for when he needs to pretend he's making good games. He's a hack with backing and a high opinion of himself.
See like this. LucasArts was doing this before he was composing music for games. They were making self referential jokes to this the year he created his game company.
Putting aside that this has nothing to do with anything, it's also flat-out denial. Everything, every single work, every single piece, every single game is inherently political. You can't make something that's apolitical; it's just impossible. Saying "I don't have a message" is in and of itself a message.
And the message is "I am a coward."
Seems simple enough he's trying to mitigate fallout from nerds. I don't blame him.
That was the writer of the Handmaid's Tale, and she explained that position, in that it was based on her imagery of what feminism was about (Bra-burning, anti-men, etc.)
That is not what is happening here. In 2017 we already have games that are made by AAA developers that don't play with that illusion. Are you telling me that Cage is more afraid of fallout from nerds then Ubisoft and 2k Games?
Heavy Rain is the best selling game from Quantic Dreams. It just recently reached 4.5 million, after all its PS3 and now PS4 sales. Assassin's Creed games, glancing at this chart, sell about twice that on average.
So, yeah, I don't see why you are comparing the two. Beyond didn't do as well as they hoped IIRC and they've been working on Detroit for several years now. They naturally want to bring in as many sales as possible and certainly not alienate potential customers beforehand.
Putting aside that this has nothing to do with anything, it's also flat-out denial. Everything, every single work, every single piece, every single game is inherently political. You can't make something that's apolitical; it's just impossible. Saying "I don't have a message" is in and of itself a message.
And the message is "I am a coward."
Oh and stop trying to deflect criticism. It's just sad to watch.
David Cage: "As long as you feel respectful and careful about what you're saying and how you say it, why wouldn't games be qualified to talk about real-world issues? Do we always have to talk about zombies and aliens and stuff, or can we talk also about the real things?
My take was this is a creative opportunity to see if a game can talk about these things or not, so don't see [the scene shown off on-stage] as, "Oh, this is the [entire] game." Each scene is different and the meaning is absolutely not binary. Don't take away from this scene that it's going to be, "[Do] you want to be violent or pacifist?" because that's not what the game is about. The game is much more complex than that and you show all the complexity and the repercussions of your choices, on opinion, on media, on your people, and being violent is not the wrong thing or the right thing. It's not about being right or wrong, it's really questioning what would you do if you had to fight for your rights and it's one of many questions in the game."
Hey so here is what we keep trying to tell you but you keep trying to avoid: David Cage makes adventure games. He likes to pretend he doesn't, but he does. He desperately tries to stick doodads and gewgaws onto them to distract from the fact that they are in fact, just adventure games. That is the overarching type of game that they are and so we can in fact point out all the various failings of them as adventure games. You can warble on about how its not the same genre and genre expectations, but after decrying that people keep discounting his games being games, you seem really hesitant to acknowledge the criticisms of them as games.
I already noted I didn't like Beyond and haven't defended it. And Heavy Rain has its issues. (namely the blackout subplot going nowhere. That was brought up earlier by someone) But yes, his games are adventure games. And your point is other people make better adventure games. And I was saying "sure, fine. I'll take your word for it. But because they are "better" doesn't mean people have to like them more."
Until Dawn exists. Oxenfree exists. Telltale games exist (though they've dropped in quality). Every single one of these takes Cage's shtick and does it better. David Cage worked only as a novelty, but the novelty has since worn off. And all that is left is his writing and directing. And he is competent with neither.
The guy makes big budget adventure games and pretends he's Sergei Eisenstein, Jean-Luc Goddard and George Lucas wrapped up into one super human man on the hill, when he's a complete hack. He's always lecturing the game industry on things they know or trying to pretend he's not making games except for when he needs to pretend he's making good games. He's a hack with backing and a high opinion of himself.
See like this. LucasArts was doing this before he was composing music for games. They were making self referential jokes to this the year he created his game company.
Never seen that interview with Cage before.Perhaps he does (unjustifiably) think he's revolutionizing gaming for a more intelligent audience. I've pointed out since I started posting in here that he has substantially less to say compared to someone like Hideo Kojima. He makes interactive summer blockbusters, not naval-gazing experiences. (and I love naval-gazing stuff. Heavy Rain is not Xenogears)
David Cage: "As long as you feel respectful and careful about what you're saying and how you say it, why wouldn't games be qualified to talk about real-world issues?
I feel a great disturbance...as though a million straight white dudes in MFAs cried out in joy, and started drafting their manuscripts.
"Feeling" like you're being respectful means jack shit when you simply have no experience or knowledge of the subject you're writing about. Just because I want to be respectful when I'm writing doesn't mean I suddenly stop being ignorant about subjects outside of my sphere of knowledge, nor does it make me immune from criticism when someone reads my well-meaning bullshit and goes "what the fuck man".
The joke there being basically all programs that provide MFAs are dominated by rich cishet white dudes
Honestly, class is by far the biggest obstacle to getting into things at that point... but you can't really talk about that without talking about who tends to be what class, which is most definitely not a color-blind topic. The worst thing about dealing with those types is that they all genuinely work hard and have thought hard and are all thoughtful, industrious people with bright minds and bright futures. So they don't see why so many people crash up on the walls around them, or how so many more just never got the chance and how hard it is for people coming from harder situations. The end result being that you get people who are thoughtful and considerate... who tend to consider themselves super woke and enlightened when the extent of their social consciousness is probably just debating minutia; real social struggle to them is just purely abstract and there's no reason or incentive for it to ever become anything else, so they never realize how much they don't know.
I've never played a Cage game and I thought Detroit: Become Human looks cool, but some of the stuff in this thread is just, Jesus Christ I think I'll stick to Stellaris.
Oh man, these guys are just scratching the surface of what makes David Cage so...great. Look up the cut lines for Beyond Two Souls, and you'll learn that David Cages original vision for it was EVEN WORSE.
I feel a great disturbance...as though a million straight white dudes in MFAs cried out in joy, and started drafting their manuscripts.
"Feeling" like you're being respectful means jack shit when you simply have no experience or knowledge of the subject you're writing about. Just because I want to be respectful when I'm writing doesn't mean I suddenly stop being ignorant about subjects outside of my sphere of knowledge, nor does it make me immune from criticism when someone reads my well-meaning bullshit and goes "what the fuck man".
So when the game actually comes out and I can play it for myself and it has problematic elements, I'll be here to talk about them. Hopefully the game will still be good, though.
Relevant to this, I think. Also the whole series is just so good and I just found it a short while ago.
Oh man, these guys are just scratching the surface of what makes David Cage so...great. Look up the cut lines for Beyond Two Souls, and you'll learn that David Cages original vision for it was EVEN WORSE.
"Feeling" like you're being respectful means jack shit when you simply have no experience or knowledge of the subject you're writing about. Just because I want to be respectful when I'm writing doesn't mean I suddenly stop being ignorant about subjects outside of my sphere of knowledge, nor does it make me immune from criticism when someone reads my well-meaning bullshit and goes "what the fuck man".
If I could like this post twice, I would. Because that's it, exactly.
I've fallen into this trap often enough and I felt like a complete shitheel because felt like I was being respectful and wasn't really listening, ending up disrespecting those who were trying to impart their own knowledge and experiences on me. So I've figured it's more important to listen than to think of myself as a respectful person.
Give me someone who actually listens to me, consider what I tell him, and engages with my arguments over someone who feels like he respects me and yet ignores what I say.
For example: I had the most enlightening conversation about socialism and its merits not with another socialist, but with a centre-right/rightwing party junior leader over beers at a get-together, and he listened to everything I said. He didn't agree with all of it, but he listened, made arguments, conceded points when he genuinely agreed with me, as did I, ended up figuring out that the other wasn't a political caricature, and we parted ways cordially (and also quite drunk).
I'd rather work with him to get my politics done than with "progressives" who pretend to want progressive policy goals, but actually don't listen when somebody tells them they might be wrong.
You know, I don't have a lot of respect for GTA5. But atleast it didn't pretend to be apolitical.
When you go around saying that you're totally apolitical despite trying to handle politics, and you're serious about it, that pretty much means you're treating the issue as some abstracted fictional scenario instead of a real thing that effects real people. Like, Cage sounds like he's going to be treating the issue of racism the same way a sci fi author posits a what if aliens intervened in World War 2 scenario.
Which means that nothing you say on the matter will have any real merit or weight, you're not taking it seriously, you're just throwing out your own dumb ideas on the issue for your own self-satisfaction.
Like, games that get political and don't give a shit about what you think about it have bite. Like Deus Ex 1, which goes whole hog talking about the erosion of civil liberties, and the alienation of the common person by showing you it. Contrast with the newer games, which take an issue like discrimination, water it down with sci fi, and present a simplistic broad strokes take on the issue that frames it as a simple binary conflict between two amorphous groups of people.
So when the game actually comes out and I can play it for myself and it has problematic elements, I'll be here to talk about them. Hopefully the game will still be good, though.
Relevant to this, I think. Also the whole series is just so good and I just found it a short while ago.
Except we already have problematic elements before the game has even been released. Combined with Cages genuinely awful track record, I feel safe in saying that Detroit: Become human will probably be garbage.
