Detroit: Become Human

[Nikkolas]

So i was wondering, if anyone asked about who david cage is, would directing them to this video be a good place to start.? I feel this video summarizes perfectly the myriad problems David's games have but i want to hear your opinions:

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Going back a bit and looking at this, I think it's completely fair to say some of the antagonism towards Cage is the entirely wrong perception that he's pretentious or that he hates video games. I saw this same attitude towards Kojima long before I knew who David Cage was. This "games shouldn't be like movies" crowd has always bugged me because games being more like movies has been an industry goal since...I dunno, forever ago. (Onimusha: Warlords in 2001 had a review praising it's being like a movie and the Square staff in charge of FFVII said its cinematics made FFVI look like a "puppet show" in comparison, the idea being that VII's movie elements made it vastly superior than VI)

The toxic "games are for gamers" identity is heavy here I'm not saying everyone who criticizes Cage is a GamerGator but look at this video. Look who is lumped in right alongside Cage, even though Cage's "PROBLEMATIC" material is precisely what Sarkeesian was criticizing. These two are enemies, not allies.

But they're both "enemies of gamers" who OBVIOUSLY hate and look down on the entire medium and thus obviously also hate and look down on gamers.

Man, those Angry Jack videos were so good. I would say I feel woke but I hate that term.

 

[cB557]

I think the dislike of David Cage games is kinda overblown but they are pretty dumb and it's fun to shit on them so fuck it.

 

[Redem]

Then there's the dialogue. David Cage has proudly boasted of a 2000 page script for Detroit, but quantity does not mean quality. Markus, played by Grey's Anatomy star Jesse Williams, is a deviant who ran away from his master to join a group of androids called Jericho. They started to band together for survival and want to prove to humanity they're not just broken smartphones, they're actually alive. Somehow, Markus can trigger sentience in androids, simply by touching them. And so he does. He puts his hand on the shoulder of an android and whispers in their ear: "You're awake now. Go to Jericho." It's all a bit, well, creepy, and I'm not sure that's quite the intent.

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I've been sorta wondering about the presensation of the robot sentience, because if there wasn't the Kara short, you could question the sentience of the robot considering that they all go join the revolution once they are turn by Markus, you could almost make a point that he infecting with virus of robot rebllion, though I could believe that in the game the robot are always sentient, but their programming bar them from certain though and action are barred from them.

I still think it will be entirely be frame as an act of liberation.

 

[Fell]

Going back a bit and looking at this, I think it's completely fair to say some of the antagonism towards Cage is the entirely wrong perception that he's pretentious or that he hates video games. I saw this same attitude towards Kojima long before I knew who David Cage was. This "games shouldn't be like movies" crowd has always bugged me because games being more like movies has been an industry goal since...I dunno, forever ago. (Onimusha: Warlords in 2001 had a review praising it's being like a movie and the Square staff in charge of FFVII said its cinematics made FFVI look like a "puppet show" in comparison, the idea being that VII's movie elements made it vastly superior than VI)

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Yeah but that's bullshit. Games shouldn't be like movies; I don't care how long it's been an "Industry goal." That goal is wrong, you shouldn't do that. If that's what "The Industry" wants, then the industry is wrong.

The toxic "games are for gamers" identity is heavy here I'm not saying everyone who criticizes Cage is a GamerGator but look at this video. Look who is lumped in right alongside Cage, even though Cage's "PROBLEMATIC" material is precisely what Sarkeesian was criticizing. These two are enemies, not allies.

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Hitler was not a big fan of Stalin but I don't particularly care for either one.

But they're both "enemies of gamers" who OBVIOUSLY hate and look down on the entire medium and thus obviously also hate and look down on gamers.

Man, those Angry Jack videos were so good. I would say I feel woke but I hate that term.

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Let me brighten it up for you:

 

[Athene]

Also, we do have much, much better examples of games with David Cage's shtick.

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I would say that his thing is that he makes bad adventure games without understanding that he's making adventure games, trying to come up with new ways to introduce "gameplay" when the core mechanic is "this is an adventure game". That's why there are always these weird bits glued on that make no sense, don't work and are soon forgotten or are the awfulness of Heavy Rain's busy work.

I mean, he also fails as an adventure game creator. The fact that you can ice the love interest of Beyond Two Souls out completely in every single scene and show nothing but contempt for him the entire time, yet the game still proceeds as if there was a relationship is like:



The writing and direction aren't even compelling enough to overlook all the problems in his games.

 

[Mutton]

Going back a bit and looking at this, I think it's completely fair to say some of the antagonism towards Cage is the entirely wrong perception that he's pretentious or that he hates video games. I saw this same attitude towards Kojima long before I knew who David Cage was. This "games shouldn't be like movies" crowd has always bugged me because games being more like movies has been an industry goal since...I dunno, forever ago. (Onimusha: Warlords in 2001 had a review praising it's being like a movie and the Square staff in charge of FFVII said its cinematics made FFVI look like a "puppet show" in comparison, the idea being that VII's movie elements made it vastly superior than VI)

The toxic "games are for gamers" identity is heavy here I'm not saying everyone who criticizes Cage is a GamerGator but look at this video. Look who is lumped in right alongside Cage, even though Cage's "PROBLEMATIC" material is precisely what Sarkeesian was criticizing. These two are enemies, not allies.

But they're both "enemies of gamers" who OBVIOUSLY hate and look down on the entire medium and thus obviously also hate and look down on gamers.

Man, those Angry Jack videos were so good. I would say I feel woke but I hate that term.

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Not everyone who dislikes a piece of media you like is evilbadwrong or associated with evilbadwrong. There's a ton to criticize about how taking mechanics out of games ends up spitting on their greatest strength in building the narrative bridge between the player and the story that the artist is telling. You also have to age criticism appropriately; when a PS1 or PS2 game is being called "like a movie" its probably because it felt like you were in a film, not that you were watching one. Key change which makes all the difference.

I don't think Cage hates video games. He's definitely pretentious as fuck, but that's kind of his brand; a descriptor, not an attack on his character.

 

[Fell]

I'm going to quote Woolie Madden of the Super Best Friends in their playthrough of Beyond Two Souls in order to illustrate why I think Cage is not just a bad Game director, but a bad storyteller;

"I have all these emotions, but they have no place to GO!"

Cage fails at understanding the importance of context, and the necessity for emotional events to work within the story they exist within. Cage is trying to tell a story, but he also for some reason wants that story to be a game, and I don't really know why, because he doesn't really use the fact that it's a game to make the story more interesting. His 'games' could just be movies where the audience is forced to press X to make the main character cut their finger off or almost suck off a dude in an alleyway. Yes, it makes you uncomfortable to do that, but that discomfort is divorced from any greater meaning. The context is lost in a morass of terrible writing, disjointed storytelling, and weird busywork.

Cage doesn't understand why movies do things. He sees all these great stories portraying all these particular events with lots of repeating themes, and he says "Oh, well great stories have these things." But he doesn't know WHY they have those things, and doesn't seem to care.

 

[ZerbanDaGreat]

I mean, he also fails as an adventure game creator. The fact that you can ice the love interest of Beyond Two Souls out completely in every single scene and show nothing but contempt for him the entire time, yet the game still proceeds as if there was a relationship is like:

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Hey hey hey hey let's be fair here.

You can pick Jacob instead of Edward.

Battling Parallax with your Stand has a way of bringing people together.

 

[Fell]

Hey hey hey hey let's be fair here.

You can pick Jacob instead of Edward.

Battling Parallax with your Stand has a way of bringing people together.

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If Cage had the chops to actually put game mechanics into his fucking video game we could actually have had a 3d action combat sequence where you fight ancient indian space ghost with your Stand; [Another Stranger Me], but sadly we don't live in the good end reality.

The one where Platinum Games made Beyond and the ending consists of a Butt Rock ballad playing over the QTE command "Mash X to Overcome Death"

 

[Nikkolas]

Not everyone who dislikes a piece of media you like is evilbadwrong or associated with evilbadwrong.

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Which is why I made sure to point this out in my post. I do not defend Cage's political incorrectness or the plot holes but I think it's completely fair to say the anger online against him transcends "he makes bad video games." He makes highly successful video games in a format people don't like and every criticism of Cage will come packaged with "he doesn't even make real video games."

What the hell is a real video game?

There's a ton to criticize about how taking mechanics out of games ends up spitting on their greatest strength in building the narrative bridge between the player and the story that the artist is telling.

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I don't agree. I've played a decent number of WRPGs at this point, some pretty highly regarded games by the same people who would gleefully spit on David Cage's stuff. Yet I don't see how, say, moral choices in most WRPGs compare at all to the choices in Heavy Rain.

Hm, hrm, okay. Kill all these people or not? Let's scroll through my menu of options.

That's not nearly as engaging to me as shooting the drug dealer or not shooting the drug dealer. As controlling the character as he walks out on a dying man. That guy totally deserved it but my point is, picking the "Abandon man having heart attack" option would not feel anywhere near as viscerally real to me as actually controlling Shelby as he marches out and leaves him to die.

You're just killing one guy both times but it means more than all the big choices in Mass Effect or whatever.

Interactive cutscenes and stuff is just as legitimate a game mechanic as anything else.

 

[Chaoswind]

*Shrug*

I'm not saying we should have wireless dongles in our heads for the corporations to pilot us with android phones like consumerist quad rotors, just that if you want to improve the human condition, you start by improving humans. Not the crass anatomy, but the cognition, the behavior. Society can be made better if people are made better.

Maybe you'd feel better about the chip in your head if everyone had one, making them not want to control your mind.

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Improved cognition can be achieved with neurochemical enhancements with a few augmentations to deal with the probable side effects, a control chip on my brain isn't going to make better, so your argument is quite frankly stupid.

We improve our brain with neurochemical, deal with the side effects with augmentations and get access to the information we need to be better through computers installed in our bodies...

A random control chip on our brains... What an stupid suggestion.

 

[Fell]

Improved cognition can be achieved with neurochemical enhancements with a few augmentations to deal with the probable side effects, a control chip on my brain isn't going to make better, so your argument is quite frankly stupid.

We improve our brain with neurochemical, deal with the side effects with augmentations and get access to the information we need to be better through computers installed in our bodies...

A random control chip on our brains... What an stupid suggestion.

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Oh no, a ridiculous and obviously humorous suggestion made as a tangent in a thread about a shitty video game by a french ponce complete with smiley face turned out to be scientifically inaccurate.

 

[Jace911]

I'm going to quote Woolie Madden of the Super Best Friends in their playthrough of Beyond Two Souls in order to illustrate why I think Cage is not just a bad Game director, but a bad storyteller;

"I have all these emotions, but they have no place to GO!"

Cage fails at understanding the importance of context, and the necessity for emotional events to work within the story they exist within. Cage is trying to tell a story, but he also for some reason wants that story to be a game, and I don't really know why, because he doesn't really use the fact that it's a game to make the story more interesting. His 'games' could just be movies where the audience is forced to press X to make the main character cut their finger off or almost suck off a dude in an alleyway. Yes, it makes you uncomfortable to do that, but that discomfort is divorced from any greater meaning. The context is lost in a morass of terrible writing, disjointed storytelling, and weird busywork.

Cage doesn't understand why movies do things. He sees all these great stories portraying all these particular events with lots of repeating themes, and he says "Oh, well great stories have these things." But he doesn't know WHY they have those things, and doesn't seem to care.

Click to shrink...

IMO David Cage's main problem stems from his desperately reaching into the pit for meaning and coming back up with shit. He just picks a thematic direction and goes for it without a real goal in mind other than "it worked for someone else!"

Look at the absolute blender of ideas Indigo Prophecy turned into. Look at how Heavy Rain wrote giant checks early on and then failed to cash them later. Look at the disjointed mess of Beyond Two Souls' central plot.

"Planning" is antithetical to Cage's entire artistic method. He sees tools in use and understands that you need hammers to build a house, but not what they're actually specifically for. Do I paint with them? Do I use them to prop things up? He doesn't know, so he waves them around until they fly out of his hands and break someone's window (Or skull).

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Ninja'd you by a year.

 

[Fell]

Ninja'd you by a year.

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Jokes on you, you are me in the futurepast.

hashtag cagetwist.

 

[cB557]

If Cage had the chops to actually put game mechanics into his fucking video game we could actually have had a 3d action combat sequence where you fight ancient indian space ghost with your Stand; [Another Stranger Me], but sadly we don't live in the good end reality

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To be fair, he did try to do something sorta like that once, and after that one maybe it's better that he didn't try again.

 

[TheOneMoiderah]

He makes highly successful video games in a format people don't like and every criticism of Cage will come packaged with "he doesn't even make real video games."

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You sure look tall when you cut down that straw.

You see, I know what he's going for. I know that he is going for an adventure game-style format. The only problem is that other people have done it several orders of magnitude better.

Until Dawn exists. Oxenfree exists. Telltale games exist (though they've dropped in quality). Every single one of these takes Cage's shtick and does it better. David Cage worked only as a novelty, but the novelty has since worn off. And all that is left is his writing and directing. And he is competent with neither.

His action sequences are badly paced and bizarrely edited. The camera seems to swoop and turn and pan and orbit almost solely because Cage can manage all kinds of crazy angles thanks to the power of video games (Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain, Omikron, Beyond). His writing is internally inconsistent (Beyond), and sometimes, the game just lies to you in order to give you a shocking twist (Heavy Rain).

He has cool ideas and interesting premises, but they all collapse thanks to the fact that David Cage has no restraint. A game that starts with a really interesting murder plot turns into fighting the fucking internet (Indigo Prophecy). A game that should be about a touching sibling relationship between a ghost and a young woman involves espionage in a Chinese underwater ghost base (Beyond). He goes for a metanarrative in a game that can't even handle a normal one (Omikron). The one that comes closest to competent is Heavy Rain, and that game lies to you. It's not even clever about it!

Hey, would you look at that. I tore down his games without ever once talking about how they're "Not Real Games".

You know, I think there might be an entirely different problem with his projects.

Cage might just be bad at making games.

 

[Nikkolas]

You see, I know what he's going for. I know that he is going for an adventure game-style format. The only problem is that other people have done it several orders of magnitude better.

Until Dawn exists. Oxenfree exists. Telltale games exist (though they've dropped in quality). Every single one of these takes Cage's shtick and does it better. David Cage worked only as a novelty, but the novelty has since worn off. And all that is left is his writing and directing. And he is competent with neither.

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Until Dawn is a horror game, isn't it? And Telltale does stuff like Game of Thrones? Why are you comparing those to a murder mystery like Heavy Rain? Maybe some people don't like horror games or they really wanted a noir game.

Just because they're "interactive dramas" or whatever doesn't mean a whole lot, at least to me. Hell, part of why I prefer Heavy Rain to Beyond is simply because the tone and setting of HR is much more my thing.

His writing is internally inconsistent (Beyond), and sometimes, the game just lies to you in order to give you a shocking twist (Heavy Rain).

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Can you explain what was inconsistent about Beyond? As for HR

Spoiler

Shelby has a few thoughts that are pretty clear indications of he's the killer. Notably:
"Lauren thinks she's about the find the killer. I'm afraid she's going to be disappointed."

Think this was at Manfred's shop.

And fair enough for critiquing his game without attacking them as not real video games. I had a vague feeling someone would jump at a harmless bit of hyperbole and I thought about editing it, but I said fuck it.

 

[ZerbanDaGreat]

A game that starts with a really interesting murder plot turns into fighting the fucking internet (Indigo Prophecy).

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Actually I think you'll find the internet was just masquerading as a blind wheelchair-bound old woman and resurrected the main character as a revenant so that he could have magic kung fu fight scenes with a Mayan priest in a nasty old hobo coat including Force Push-ing bricks at each other and literal mid-air Dragon Ball Z fisticuffs. Also the only thing the female protagonist accomplishes is getting smashed by that ice-cold zombie dick to birth another Indigo Child if you get the shit end.

A game that should be about a touching sibling relationship between a ghost and a young woman involves espionage in a Chinese underwater ghost base (Beyond).

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And don't forget the part where Jodie is trained as a deniable CIA asset with Stand powers to operate in some unspecified African country but the minute she runs into trouble a fleet of US military branded helicopters fly straight into a hot zone dicks extended to save her which kind of defeats the purpose of a covert deniable op and also Ryan explicitly told her previously that if she got in trouble nobody would help her.

The one that comes closest to competent is Heavy Rain, and that game lies to you. It's not even clever about it!

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Never forgetti the only thing Madison accomplishes at all until the last hour or two of the game is experience three creepy rape scenarios all in a row and play nurse for Ethan until they fuck. Also in one ending she tells Ethan "give me a child" while they are at Shaun's grave.

 

[TheOneMoiderah]

Never forgetti the only thing Madison accomplishes at all until the last hour or two of the game is experience three creepy rape scenarios all in a row and play nurse for Ethan until they fuck. Also in one ending she tells Ethan "give me a child" while they are at Shaun's grave.

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Oh my god I completely forgot about that ending.

The absolute fucking worst

 

[Nikkolas]

Never forgetti the only thing Madison accomplishes at all until the last hour or two of the game is experience three creepy rape scenarios all in a row and play nurse for Ethan until they fuck. Also in one ending she tells Ethan "give me a child" while they are at Shaun's grave.

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1. While investigating the demented doctor, she can easily find the information she needs without getting caught. Seems unlikely to happen for first timers but I've seen it done.

2. She holds a criminal at gunpoint and gets valuable intel from him that leads to finding the killer completely independent of anyone else's help, no different than the others. Indeed, Ethan was actually saved by her several times now I think on it, continuing all the way to the end where Ethan will die unless Madison is there.

 

[ZerbanDaGreat]

1. While investigating the demented doctor, she can easily find the information she needs without getting caught. Seems unlikely to happen for first timers but I've seen it done.

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If you have drinks with him he'll drug Madison and tie her up in his creepy Mr. Plinkett basement to power drill her ovaries. If you decline and search for the evidence he'll flash-step behind her in Slugger Style and do a Heat action on the back of her head if she crosses an invisible trigger point, makes a noise, or takes too long. So basically without foreknowledge Slumber Party Massacre IV will happen.

2. She holds a criminal at gunpoint and gets valuable intel from him that leads to finding the killer completely independent of anyone else's help, no different than the others. Indeed, Ethan was actually saved by her several times now I think on it, continuing all the way to the end where Ethan will die unless Madison is there.

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Yeah, after having to make herself as sexually desirable as possible and do a striptease for him at gunpoint, possibly all the way to complete nakedness if you don't realise 'The Lamp' is the secret 'end scene' button. Madison's only actual purpose is to re-enact Kingdom of the Crystal Skull when Shelby's apartment explodes as a failsafe to get Ethan or Jayden to the warehouse if they missed it themselves and/or owning a motorcycle so she can run the police blockade because the Heavy Rain City PD are so fucking stupid they will ventilate some busted-up smelly hobo frenchman for the crime of opening a door while unarmed. In fact if it's Madison & Ethan alone at the warehouse despite getting fucking shot Ethan will drag his ass the length and breadth of the shipyard and I think even up a ladder just to shoot Shelby in the back and save her from the terrifying overweight asthmatic dad menacing her.

And there's also the related fact that her debut as a playable character is just a home invasion nightmare. You don't learn a single thing about her as a character, just what she looks like in the shower and that the idea of getting dorm invaded by the Balaclava Rape Gang gives her a big frighten.

 

[Nikkolas]

If you have drinks with him he'll drug Madison and tie her up in his creepy Mr. Plinkett basement to power drill her ovaries. If you decline and search for the evidence he'll flash-step behind her in Slugger Style and do a Heat action on the back of her head if she crosses an invisible trigger point, makes a noise, or takes too long. So basically without foreknowledge Slumber Party Massacre IV will happen.

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I did see one person who actually drank the stuff from the creepy doctor but even I could tell it was a dumb thing when I first played the game. The guy is ridiculously suspicious and creepy and he's a drug dealing doctor. Why would anyone drink anything he gave them?

I knew nothing about invisible trigger points, though. I only knew about taking too long, which is what happened to me.

because the Heavy Rain City PD are so fucking stupid they will ventilate some busted-up smelly hobo frenchman for the crime of opening a door while unarmed.

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Sounds like American police to me.

In fact if it's Madison & Ethan alone at the warehouse despite getting fucking shot Ethan will drag his ass the length and breadth of the shipyard and I think even up a ladder just to shoot Shelby in the back and save her from the terrifying overweight asthmatic dad menacing her.

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I actually quite liked the writing for this. It's a consistent bit of storytelling all game and culminates in the various endings. Shelby is by far the toughest and best fighter(so he can kick Norman's ass), Ethan is superhumanly resilient (you bring up his gunshot but at this point he could have a whole plethora of serious injuries), Norman is crap in a fight but gets better each fight he's in (he's in the most combat situations IIRC), and Madison is...well, a 100 pound journalist(so all her fights, including the ending one, entail her running away and looking for an opening).

And there's also the related fact that her debut as a playable character is just a home invasion nightmare. You don't learn a single thing about her as a character, just what she looks like in the shower and that the idea of getting dorm invaded by the Balaclava Rape Gang gives her a big frighten.

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This is true. Madison has pretty weak opening sections.

 

[ZerbanDaGreat]

Sounds like American police to me.

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Blake also gets away with openly assaulting a psychiatrist because doctor-patient confidentiality makes him angery, making to have fisticuffs with Jayden in the middle of a meeting with several other police officers and the captain there if you lightly rib him, and drawing his gun on Jayden in the station with the camera rolling if you attempt to stop him from assaulting Ethan if the latter winds up in custody. David Cage doesn't know how the police work. And going by the motel escape he also thinks they're flailing noodle-armed Shemp Howards because despite their offscreen flash-stepping powers they still find themselves laughable incapable of catching a single busted-up French dad.

I can't wait to see how insane the future-Detroit cops act.

 

[Nikkolas]

Blake also gets away with openly assaulting a psychiatrist because doctor-patient confidentiality makes him angery, making to have fisticuffs with Jayden in the middle of a meeting with several other police officers and the captain there if you lightly rib him, and drawing his gun on Jayden in the station with the camera rolling if you attempt to stop him from assaulting Ethan if the latter winds up in custody. David Cage doesn't know how the police work. And going by the motel escape he also thinks they're flailing noodle-armed Shemp Howards because despite their offscreen flash-stepping powers they still find themselves laughable incapable of catching a single busted-up French dad.

I can't wait to see how insane the future-Detroit cops act.

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100% serious, going by what I've heard from European posters on forums like this, I think a lot of them do see our police force as being one big den of Blakes. And with all the stories you see in the news and on John Oliver, can you blame them?

This was an official recruitment video.


But yeah, I don't expect the police to be portrayed too well in Detroit, either. Looking forward to it.

 

[ZerbanDaGreat]

100% serious, going by what I've heard from European posters on forums like this, I think a lot of them do see our police force as being one big den of Blakes. And with all the stories you see in the news and on John Oliver, can you blame them?

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Real abusive cops stick to targets they can get away with, in the company of people that'll cover for them. Blake assaults every suspect he interrogates including a doctor and his own partner who is a federal agent and nakedly hates him right back. The man tries to throw down with a fucking G-man in the middle of an official meeting about the 'imminently drowning child' case! Blake is so genuinely psychotic he'd scream at a toddler for being the Origami Killer in the middle of the street in broad daylight then punch it in the face and start throwing out elbow drops.