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DARLING in the FRANXX - it's literal

Maybe it's because I haven't seen Gunbuster, but I've really enjoyed the entire show. I mean, it wasn't perfect, but the positives vastly outweighed the negatives for me.
 
Ford Prefect said:
There's nothing new under the sun, so presentation is often key. That a show shares DNA with earlier shows is of no concern to me. All I care about is what is done with it.
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But a good chunk of your disappointment with the show sounds like what was done is not what you wanted or expected it to do, when the show beat viewers over the head on what it was going to be. From Ep 1 on, it could not be more on the nose if it were projected on Nishigori's nose. :V

You say all that matters is what was done, but episodes 19/20-23 notwithstanding, the show was a competent, traditional mecha anime/romance that wore its influences on its sleeve. That's what it was, that's what it did, it just did it in a fancy way.

The cigar was just a cigar this time. :V
 
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As I told @Sidheach in a PM I think a large chunk of our disappointment comes down to being "western" consumers of something that in the end is squarely aimed at a Japanese audience and hence expecting something much more subversive or challenging than the general "be yourself, follow your heart" narrative that we have seen often in Mecha. We thought we saw something that through its subtext was actually adressing gender specifically and societal in general issues we from an outsider experience see in Japanese society. But as the writers of the series were themselves Japanese, they did not actually follow through on that problematisation we saw.

EDIT: Fixed spelling
 
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FourthWall said:
But a good chunk of your disappointment with the show sounds like what was done is not what you wanted or expected it to do, when the show beat viewers over the head on what it was going to be. From Ep 1 on, it could not be more on the nose if it were projected on Nishigori's nose.
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No, my disappointment with the show stems from the fact that it isn't very interesting. But it started in an interesting way. Frankly, your assessment of episode 1 isn't of any concern to me, and honestly feels a little at odds with your participation in the thread earlier. For example:

FourthWall said:
I never dinged vanilla romance as the subversive thing, or subverting vanilla romance as the thing in DarliFra. I always read it as subverting having your love determined for you, via adults/society (SEELE) or via selfish fantasies (Manic Pixie Nightmare Girl 02, Scott Pilgrim early Hiro). There's nothing wrong with the vanilla option, if that's what you know what you want. If you're just fucking around, people get hurt.

In Japan, even getting to the point of knowing what you want is a non-starter for the anime watching populace.
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FourthWall said:
Signifiers with and without meaning seem like an important thing in DarliFra. Papa and Nana having cutsey parent names while being distant, loveless authority figures, numbering kids (and the subsequent power of creating an I am I signifier with bestowed names), the empty status symbol of Hiro being a pilot, 02's Manic Pixie Dream Girl thing and subsequent identity disorders, et.al.
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So when when you tell me that I was simply reading too deeply into the show, I don't find that very convincing. It's clear that you had been reading into, and what meant for quite some time, and this whole 'please it was always just Gunbuster and with pretentious set dress' thing feels more than a little post-facto. And I mean, if Hiro really was just Nono, and their only commonality as characters is an intense desire to pilot, and even if Zero Two really was just L'alc, and that is a real stretch given that they're very different, that wouldn't actually matter. Boy meets girl is rife throughout all of fiction, but sharing a basic premise isn't the be all and end all.

Yes, my disappointment stems from my expectations being met, but they were expectations built by the show. I didn't imagine those first 15 episodes. Up until that point it was a really good robot show, brimming with mystery and promise. So pardon me if it turning into a well-produced but ultimately very ordinary robot show around episode 19 leaves me kind of cold.
 
JBO said:
As I told @Sidheach in a PM I think a large chunk of our disappointment comes down to being "western" consumers of something that in the end is squarely aimed at a Japanese audience and hence expecting something much more subversive or challenging than the general "be yourself, follow your heart" narrative that we have seen often in Mecha. We thought we saw something that through its context was actually adressing gender specifically and societal in general issues we from an outsider experience see in Japanese society. But as the writers of the series were themselves Japanese, they did not actually follow through on that problematisation we saw.
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You seem to be assuming that japan doesn't actually address those issues with anime. If you believe that I strongly suggest you go watch some more anime. I mean I'm not expecting it to be Wandering Son but if it could have at least hit Simoun or Gatchaman Crowds level that at least would have been a step up. Instead we get a plot that could have been ripped from one of the thousands of EVA clones that came out in the late 90's with lots of surface level symbolism signifying nothing more than a boilerplate story at its core.
 
While we all bring our own context to the party when we look at art, I don't think it can be attributed purely to that. The show really did engage with topics like those, or at least raised them, whether explicitly or through the way it used its imagery and framing. I really do feel like it suddenly swerved after episode 15. Like it felt like it inverted itself, and I spent a long time wondering what the pay-off would of that inversion would be. And it was a fairly standard love is powerful story.
 
Tasrill said:
You seem to be assuming that japan doesn't actually address those issues with anime. If you believe that I strongly suggest you go watch some more anime. I mean I'm not expecting it to be Wandering Son but if it could have at least hit Simoun or Gatchaman Crowds level that at least would have been a step up. Instead we get a plot that could have been ripped from one of the thousands of EVA clones that came out in the late 90's with lots of surface level symbolism signifying nothing more than a boilerplate story at its core.
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I am not saying that Japan doesn't adress those issues with anime (or on a cultural level for that matter, my avatar would not exist otherwise), sorry for being unclear on that, I was more expressing my frustration that this specific anime did not adress those issues on the level that the first few episodes for me as a cultural outsider indicated they would go to.
 
JBO said:
I am not saying that Japan doesn't adress those issues with anime (or on a cultural level for that matter, my avatar would not exist otherwise), sorry for being unclear on that, I was more expressing my frustration that this specific anime did not adress those issues on the level that the first few episodes for me as a cultural outsider indicated they would go to.
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It seems I simply read your post incorrectly. I have just seen the 'well japan is not the west' used as a dodge for cultural critique so often that I have a bit of a hair trigger about it. I am sorry about that.
 
Well, I guess the show managed to recover and - well, not stick the landing, but come off with a sprain perhaps, rather than shattering both legs on impact.
 
8/10 could've been better if they didn't rush with the space arc, and give us more epic final battle.

I also like the grown up version of the Squad 13:
Miku is cuter while Zorome got taller (whatmagicisthis).
Futoshi is now Mario the Baker and Ikuno is the respectable grandma doctor with Naomi as her assistant/colleague.
Goro grew up to be a fine, handsome bro and Ichigo is what Rem wishes she had become.
And the MitsuKoko couple is Abe's dream for all Japanese families.

Also all these side Miku reaction faces. Glorious.

P.S.
>"I'm going deeper and deeper in."
>"Come to me, Darling"
sasuga trigger.
 
I'm waiting for a fanfic where Naomi is the one who stays rather then Hiro. Z2 doesn't get to reunite with her love and in general the cast faces more general heartbreak and melancholy.

If the show is about growing up and true love then this hypothetical is about growing up and unrequited//failed love.

Also, Naomi is a blank slate so I just kind of want to see how people go with her.
 
Dream Logic said:
I'm waiting for a fanfic where Naomi is the one who stays rather then Hiro. Z2 doesn't get to reunite with her love and in general the cast faces more general heartbreak and melancholy.

If the show is about growing up and true love then this hypothetical is about growing up and unrequited//failed love.

Also, Naomi is a blank slate so I just kind of want to see how people go with her.
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There's a fan-fic discussion thread for the series that could be used for further discussion. I have vague thoughts on two different ideas I might post there later.
 
JBO said:
Honestly the greatest twist this show could pull right now is if Naomi actually did get sent to a farm upstate and lives there happily with all the other children unable to pilot. :p
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So, is anyone gonna answer that?

BECAUSE I CALLED IT.
 
So, reflecting on it, I think the biggest gripe I have with the ending is that they tried to do too much with it. They wanted to resolve Hiro and Zero Two's arc, show Earth being rebuilt, and give Hiro and Zero Two a happy ending all within the span of an episode. The obvious problem with that is that they simply didn't have the time to do that satisfactorily and as a result, we got a fairly jumbled up ending with little build up.

Honestly, I feel like they would have been better off showing Hiro and Zero Two kamikazing VIRM and then cut to Earth, show Zero Two's body turning into a sapling, and end with Ichigo saying something about how they'll rebuild Earth while waiting for them to get back as she finishes the final page in the book. Trying to wrap up everyone's stories in fifteen minutes just detracted from it because so much of it came out of left field. Suddenly Ikuno is a Doctor who cures their accelerated aging despite little indication that she was a science whizz before this; Gobro going on his grand adventure and then settling down to be a dad within the span of ten minutes; Fubroshi becoming Mario, there was just no way to do all of that satisfactorily in a single episode, let alone the finale.

That said, I still enjoyed it, it's just that I feel like they could have done the ending better.
 
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but this video was too funny not to share here:

The whole thing's quite funny IMO, but the last couple jokes are my favorite.
 
I realize I'm rather late to the party, but I just replaced my speaker, and so decided to catch up on Episodes 19-24 of this show. I binged them all at once and...

My word, that was a trainwreck. But at least it was an interesting trainwreck.

Ford Prefect said:
Later I'll probably be able to write an essay on why this was a bad idea, but currently I'm firmly in for the ride. :V
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Hah. Funny that you say that.

I was never actually that invested in the show - it struck me as solid in terms of themes and characterization and it kept me watching, but I never really loved it. But I was sufficiently fascinated and startled by the method in which this anime threw away its identity and potential that I immediately started making notes as I watched, which grew into a fairly wordy post. Almost all of this was written before I binge-read the responses in this thread.

It's a little stream-of-consciousness-ish, but here it is.

Let's start with the Nines. Up until Ep 20, they were portrayed as a decidely sinister and antagonistic force. I mean, three of their pistils are identical in appearence and muzzled, so there's clearly something very off about them. They repeatedly use their words as sharpened knives against Squad 13 in general and Zero Two specifically - their implicit prior emotional abuse of her is severe enough that she prefers to be called by a number than by the name they gave her. Combine with their unflinching loyalty to "Papa," they were pretty clearly slated to be a pretty strong end boss for Squad 13, both physically and thematically.

And then the ongoing antagonistic nature of the Nines, built up over most of a season...is dropped for SUDDENLY ALIENS. And they're helping with the mission to reunite Hiro and Zero Two because...reasons?

One or two of the Nines and their FRANXX is torn to pieces by the aliens in a scene right out of End of Evangelion. Except Asuka's dismemberment was horrifying because we had every reaon to root for her, while this is being directed towards characters who have previously been portrayed as very sinister and antagonistic towards the protagonists.

Later, that one Nine guy sacrifices himself to kill that random giant humanoid alien, and the others are killed off similarly. And none of the main cast really take a moment to mourn them in any notable way. What the hell is my emotional response to this supposed to be? Given the sheer whiplash in how the narrative has been treating the Nines, my reaction is just bewilderment towards the writing.


And then there's the Klaxosaurs and their queen.

The origins of the Klaxosaurs and their queen is revealed...in a dry exposition dump taking up much of an episode. The implied reckoning between the Klaxosaur Queen and the APE council never comes to pass. Also, it turns out that the Klaxosaurs were the good guys all along and APE were the pawns of ALIENS, who were never foreshadowed at all (to the best of my knowledge).

The Klaxosaurs, despite having been clearly beaten by APE and reduced to a single stronghold (albiet one not neccessarily worth the cost of conquering), are suddeenly far more capable of resisting the alien threat than the faction that just beat them in a war. To the degree that they pull an enormous anti-space force right out of their ass and proceed to beat the aliens back to Mars. If they had the vast resources necessary for outer space warfare, how the hell did they ever lose to APE?

Meanwhile, APE's military forces seem to just...vanish into the ether? Where all the mook FRANXX and their pilots? Everyone other than the protagonist team and the Nines? What about the vast numbers of adults who were living in lotus eater machines? If their fate was touched upon, it was in such an ephemeral manner that I literally missed it.

Oh, and the Klaxosaurs leaving a convenient spaceship for humans to use, despite vast amounts of bad blood between humans and klaxosaurs? "Humans have been allowed to join the fight to defend earth?" Okaaaaay then.



Episode 22 had a pretty intersting conflict between Hiro, who is obsessed with reuniting with his significant other, and Goro, who is worried about the medium and long term survival of the group in APE's steadily crumbling infrastructure and with potentially being reduced to attempting subsistence farming in a world-wide desert .... I actually really like how this mirrors the early conflicts between Zero Two as a destabilizing individual and Ichigo, representing the interests of the group as a whole. But by the end of the episode, the conflict doesn't feel resolved so much as...dropped.


Episode 23: in which Hiro and Zero Two reunite, affirm their love for each other, and turn their love into superpowers with which they blow away the enemy. Which is fine, except we've already seen this song and dance multiple times.

Also, Strelezia's ultimate final form is ugly. Seeing Zero Two's upper body grafted onto that weird centaur/wedding dress structure is...pretty off-putting after an entire season of seeing Strelezia and the other FRANXX emoting brilliantly. Wost of all, the strange design inhibits and limits Strelizia's range of movement. Gone is the acrobatics and the range of personality expressed via humanoid form, gone is the wild kicking and screaming of beast mode - centaur Strelizia just lazily hangs there and blows away the aliens with her horn with all the fanfare of flicking a torch on and off.

In conjunction with this, Zero Two herself seems to have - very disappointingly - lost her fire, and now mostly just demurely says "darling" a bunch of times. Her ongoing anger at the world for treating her as it has, her subversive and rebellious traits - it's all gone. She's just a generic waifu now.

Oh, and The Nines get themselves out of the way by blowing themselves (and are not mourned for even a moment by the rest of the cast), and it's not even clear that their sacrifice was neccessary.

Nana and emotionless buzz-cut dude are there too, but they are explicitly only along for the ride and just...don't do anything.


Episode 24: stuff gets wrapped up. Hiro/002/Centaur!Strelezia suicide bomb the alien homeworld, but they live on in the afterlife or...something? And they get reincarnated, so it's all good? Whatever happened to that promise to return to Earth alive and well? Mutsuru and Kokoro get together and have a baby, erasing the consequences of their memory wipe with little fanfare. Shame I can't bring myself to actually care about their romance. The Klaxosaurs and the Franxx both move themselves out of the way, so as not to interfere with the happy ending. And the main characters vow never to use magma energy again? Yeah, I'm sure future generations will 100% hold themselves to that.



The foundational issue, I think, is that in bringing in SUDDENLY ALIENS, this show essentially dropped all the plot threads it had been building up and abandoned its themes, leaving only lip service to what had been foreshadowed and built up.

Plot-wise, there was all this implied forewhadowing and build up to a climax in the form of a reckoning between Hiro and his gang, APE and their minions, and the the remnants of the Klaxosaur army...none of which bears fruit.

On one side we have Squad 13, who have steadily been given a hell of a lot of reason to dislike and distrust "Papa," who have been gaining extraordinary combat prowess on account of Doctor Franxx's under-the-table experiments, and who have Hiro - who holds disproportionate influence among the Parasites as a whole.

One another side we have the APE council and their minions, in the form of the brainwashed mook Parasites and the sinister Nines. They have vague but real internal divisions, they have a vested interest in making sure the deviant patterns of thought expressed by Squad 13 do not spread, and they have not quite completely crushed the Klaxosaurs, yet are counting their chickens before they hatch.

And on the third side we have the Klaxosaur Queen and the remnants of her armies, who - up to this point - seem to have been locked in a war with humanity/APE over limited resources neccessary for surviving and thriving. She has very little to lose at this point, and has every reason to bet everything on the dice, capitalize on APE's inner divisions during a critical moment (Squad 13 vs the Council, rival factions in the Council itself), and make a last ditch attempt to decapitate APE once and for all.

All of which was dropped for SUDDENLY ALIENS.

And in the end, the characters get to go back to medieval times, eking out a brutal living as subsitance farmers in a post-apocalyptic hellscape. I guess the average lifespan for the new babies is going to go right back down to 30, as in ye olde times. Hooray. Happy ending.

Oh, and Goro and Ichigo apparently get together. Because why not throw the last remotely interesting/unique statement this show had on romantic relationships down the toilet, too?

In conclusion, this was honestly quite fascinating as the most impressive, astounding, awe-inspiring, stunning, astonishing piece of narrative suicide I have seen committed since Evangelion 3.0.

While Episode 20 killed my interest in the show itself, it has made me very curious as to what the hell happened in the creative process.
 
It might just be hearsay, but I vaguely recall reading that the last half of the series was written by a different studio? Or something along those lines.
 
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