Cultivating Magic

[nicoo]

So normal people don't get those, probably. [...]
Though the fact that Meridwen doesn't seem to reference it at all makes me wonder if the pet goat simply took much less interest in her.

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That's my reading as well, glad to see I'm not the only one.

You aren't suggesting our MC would make stupid assumptions are you?! 😂

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EDIT: Sorry Spira, looks like I accidentally erased what I wrote here... and I have no clue anymore what it was 😓

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I wouldn't look too much into the comparative time compression between worlds just yet. Meridlwin's dealing with the Fae. By tine she makes it back to reality it's entirely possible that those years of torment only took five minutes as far as the rest of the world is concerned.

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You know what just occurred to me? John's cat is almost certainly dead by now. Hopefully the ex-girlfriend gave it a good life though.

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I have 0 clue about the setting where Meridwen ended up (and in which John presumably originated) but I hope the Fae do mess with time... because Meridwen badly needs a therapy kitty now.

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Well she's probably going to have a mild freak out when she finds out her former world world isn't as "safe" as she imagined.

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Only sane reaction, TBH... though maybe exposure to Her Pet Goat might have removed her ability to freak out about eldritch horrors in general?

In the long run I feel like she needs to turn that low level message spell in to a much higher tier one that pull all messsged in to a space where time doesn't pass and they can chat and pass information. The knowledge from all three worlds would benefit all of them.

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Not sure Sending could provide a particularly useful base for that, especially if the entire conversation should be instantaneous from the perspective of each participant's local plane.

Mei could get away with a vastly more... understated spell, though: just increasing the amount of information that can be conveyed in a single casting would already be massively useful, even assuming it all needs to be about a single topic. I already forgot who brought it up, but the cultivation trope of having short text imbued with meaning somehow, could be a good way to get there.

And her fears of not being there daughter aren't that well founded, she stuck around and helped her parents escape and has all her memorys. She may as well be her.

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I don't think either of them "are her," and I've been thinking of them more as composites built from the 2 individuals who were involved at the start of the ritual. Kind of like HPG went all "arts & crafts" on their very being, I guess?

Otherwise, why would "John"/Mei end up with the contract that was tied to Meridwen's soul, for instance? They had to have exchanged more than bodies and memories.

 

[Shadell]

Now there is a problem that Merildwen would run across that the parents wouldn't. Because of the abyss magical energy is scarce in CoD. Energies don't cross over from the supernal realms so unless she's in a hallow there might not be anything to absorb. So unless she can absorb whatever Fae run on, is willing to absorb life force or can use whatever spirits use she has a problem.

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Given that the weave and qi run on the same principle here, I think it's presumptive to make any conclusions about how WoD energy works or if the magic Mages use have any real connection whatsoever to Meril's stuff which runs on basic energy fundamental to all life.

Like, the simplest explanation, given that basically everything runs off qi on some level in cultivationland and that the fundamental workings of reality are the same, is that the Supernal Realm is channeling some kind of particular energy and awakening to sense qi and that particular kind is restricted.

Like, if all "magic" was restricted a la Mage, none of the other splats would work. But they aren't the exact same kind of magic so it's fine. Expecting overall coherency out of WoD seems like a fool's errand tbh, particularly when the world also works in a way that's coherent or compatible with cultivationland and D&Dland and TES.

Making big assumptions about the physics in play seems a bit silly given that WoD is a bunch of almost compatible cosmologies and histories shoved together by the advantage of mostly playing one splat at a time and a lot being shrouded in mystery and a bunch of very different much more concrete rules are being added here.

 

[Logos01]

Like, if all "magic" was restricted a la Mage, none of the other splats would work. But they aren't the exact same kind of magic so it's fine. Expecting overall coherency out of WoD seems like a fool's errand tbh, particularly when the world also works in a way that's coherent or compatible with cultivationland and D&Dland and TES.

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Example: for Changelings, Arcadia is separated from the mundane world by the Hedge.

For Mages, Arcadia is separated from the mundane world by the Abyss.

But in any case, even Changelings in the mundane world for the most part are stuck feeding on regular humans in some manner, a trait shared with pretty much everything that interacts primarily with reality. Aside from special places of magic, human life is the only real source of mystical potence in CofD and WoD. (You can work around that with spirit realm stuff, but that's basically replacing humans with the natives of that realm.). And sure, animals can work too but nowhere near as well.

 

[SaltyBoi]

Example: for Changelings, Arcadia is separated from the mundane world by the Hedge.

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While they don't travel into Arcadia, to avoid the True Fae, they do travel, and even live, in the Hedge, which you definitely don't want to do with the Abyss.

 

[Logos01]

While they don't travel into Arcadia, to avoid the True Fae, they do travel, and even live, in the Hedge, which you definitely don't want to do with the Abyss.

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Yup. Point being, different entities in the same setting relate to student places in that setting in different ways.

The splats are incompatible with each other in quirky ways and that's almost certainly done intentionally by the authors.

 

[crystalaurora]

Aside from special places of magic, human life is the only real source of mystical potence in CofD and WoD.

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One critical thing to note is that Mei Wen, specifically, has noted that she has a unique property to generate Qi entirely on her own - this, I think, will carry over to Mirrorwelden as well, in that she will also have the ability to generate a small but usable pool of magic without external assistasnce. (In Mei Wen's case, she has a pool of specifically ghost/death aspected Yin Qi at the core of her soul, which just straight up regenerates over time without needing to gather more of it.)

 

[Arkeus]

One critical thing to note is that Mei Wen, specifically, has noted that she has a unique property to generate Qi entirely on her own - this, I think, will carry over to Mirrorwelden as well, in that she will also have the ability to generate a small but usable pool of magic without external assistasnce. (In Mei Wen's case, she has a pool of specifically ghost/death aspected Yin Qi at the core of her soul, which just straight up regenerates over time without needing to gather more of it.)

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I don't remember Mei Wen ever mentionning that. I remember her mentionning that her current cultivation technique did that with the moon, but it wasn't about her.

 

[crystalaurora]

I don't remember Mei Wen ever mentionning that. I remember her mentionning that her current cultivation technique did that with the moon, but it wasn't about her.

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She mentioned it while describing her anti-assault defense with the Twin Dragon-Phoenix Dual Cultivation Technique. Namely, in the event that someone forcibly tries to perform dual cultivation, she'll flood them with death qi, and she mentioned that using that specific pool of qi won't interrupt her cultivation because it comes back on its own. Let me see if i can grab a quote for it...

If worse came to worse, and someone sexually assaulted me, then I would try to use the same principles to do the opposite, to shove my entire well of ghostly yin energy into the asshole.

Not only was that a fair bit of energy, but unlike my cultivation base, it was a renewable resource. If I depleted it, more came out after a while. I was also almost certain that such a large amount of deathly energy shoved into a man's meridians would be instantly fatal, even if they were in the early Foundation Establishment.

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[Iridesce]

I don't remember Mei Wen ever mentionning that. I remember her mentionning that her current cultivation technique did that with the moon, but it wasn't about her.

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She has mentioned the ghostly yin qi that wells up from within her. She was thinking about if she could use it or her true qi to permanently shackle an undead.

Example: for Changelings, Arcadia is separated from the mundane world by the Hedge.

For Mages, Arcadia is separated from the mundane world by the Abyss.

But in any case, even Changelings in the mundane world for the most part are stuck feeding on regular humans in some manner, a trait shared with pretty much everything that interacts primarily with reality. Aside from special places of magic, human life is the only real source of mystical potence in CofD and WoD. (You can work around that with spirit realm stuff, but that's basically replacing humans with the natives of that realm.). And sure, animals can work too but nowhere near as well.

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Interestingly it's mentioned that souls need at least some level of magic to function. So a little flows from the supernal into human souls or they wouldn't be alive. This is apparently tied to why sleepers cause paradox. So basically some level of magic needs to flow in for people to be alive and that's why they are the only source of magic. Go to the wiki and read about sleepers and the piece of the abyss in them if you want to know more.

 

[World Illusion]

d&d wizardry is not as big a deal as we're making it out to be.

mainly because it isnt repeatable, paradox-less true magic. in WoD, true magic is the biggest deal and wizardry is not it (ill explain why later) and paradox is the cost of true magic. it adds up like waste heat and really bad things happen when it gets high, so everyone looks for ways to minimize it or cheat the system but meryl has been casting spells regularly for a decade and there are no mentions of paradox. she's not generating it because she's not using true magic. also, she still has a limited number of spell slots. yes, OP has a more sensible take on how wizardry would work/develop with people being able to turn nearly(or every) spell into a ritual. which does help, but the spells she can cast on the fly are still limited regardless.

so what's true magic anyway? it's divinity. i mean, that's a little reductive but a mage is someone who has seen the truth of reality (that it, all its substance and all its laws are illusory) and through that revelation has awoken the ability to reject its laws and substitute their own. the limits of true magic are only imagination and the danger of paradox (equal opposite reaction to rejecting reality and substituting your own is that it sometimes punches you in the face for you hubris).

sorcery (in WoD parlance) is a different beast. where true magic is like a mage cutting through reality. sorcery is like walking along an ancient mountain path. it's been carved, it has been worn into the cliff side. it's stable, tried and true and it is set in stone. there are many kinds of sorcery but they are all paradigms and systems with defined rules and capabilities. alchemy is one example of sorcery in the WoD. anyone with the tools and the knowledge can be an alchemist and muck about with the universe through Chemistry+, at least within its defined abilities. wizardry is similar. a system of formulas and components (verbal, somatic, material) that anyone with the knowledge and comprehension can use. sorcerous paradigms are forged by collective belief and/or repeated of true magic over generations or millennia.

so wizardry isn't true magic, in fact, it's not even close (even the greatest of spells 9th level spells, Wish, still has limits). we should temper our expectations accordingly.

that all said, it IS a whole new kind of sorcery she could teach to people and she IS now a being that gains power from contracts and so she can trade knowledge for power. she's set up quick well, i think.

 

[Logos01]

so wizardry isn't true magic, in fact, it's not even close (even the greatest of spells 9th level spells, Wish, still has limits). we should temper our expectations accordingly.

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You're missing the fact that D&D Wizardry would be wholly immune to any kind of Paradox backlash. Including Sorcery's tendency to simply fail outright when crossing the witnessed vulgarity threshold.

D&D Wizardry isn't just consensual by loophole; it outright violates Consensus without restriction.

But that's rather irrelevant since it's not even the right setting.

 

[World Illusion]

You're missing the fact that D&D Wizardry would be wholly immune to any kind of Paradox backlash. Including Sorcery's tendency to simply fail outright when crossing the witnessed vulgarity threshold.

D&D Wizardry isn't just consensual by loophole; it outright violates Consensus without restriction.

But there rather irrelevant since it's not even the right setting.

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i suppose the latter point would be the more important. you caught me missing the forest for the trees. you hate to see it XD

 

[Iridesce]

Another problem is that Merildwen is in Chronicles of Darkness not World of Darkness. So I'm pretty sure that paradox isn't reality/the consensus pushing back but you accidentally pulling the abyss into reality.

I think that legacies might not have paradox but they have their own problems.

Edit: ninja

 

[Neruz]

so wizardry isn't true magic, in fact, it's not even close (even the greatest of spells 9th level spells, Wish, still has limits). we should temper our expectations accordingly.

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9th is actually not the greatest level of mortal spells, spells used to go above 9th level, up to at least 12th level though it was theoretically possible to go even higher if you could come up with a spell powerful enough to qualify.

But way back when a guy by the name of Karsus invented a 12th level spell called Karsus's Avatar, with the intended purpose of fundamentally and permanently altering reality to replace a targeted god with the caster.

This spell failed quite spectacularly, not only proving to be temporary rather than permanent, but also Karsus decided to target Mystra, the Goddess of Magic. This was a mistake. Long story short the Weave went nuts and magic shat itself and resulted in the collapse of the greatest empire the world of Toril had ever seen.

After all the messes were cleaned up, a new 'cap' on mortal magic was set at 9th level and all magic past that became 'Epic' magic; which very much is true magic by WoD terms, and is also generally very much forbidden for mortals to dabble in. (Of course by the time any mortal is capable of dabbling in Epic magic, they're more than powerful enough that no-one can really stop them either.)


And in theory, with enough time and practice, any wizard can eventually reach the point of being capable of casting Epic magic and altering reality itself to their whims. It's much harder than it used to be before the 'cap' was put in place, (and then it got easier again when the Spellplague set magic on fire, and then it got harder again when Ao retconned the Spellplague) but it can still be done.

Low level D&D Wizardry might not be WoD true magic, but it can be developed to that level.

 

[pedanterrific]

I wish people would stop acting like Faerun is the only setting that exists.

Merildwen is explicitly not from Faerun, for one thing.

 

[kaosisreality]

*Points out people are arguing over a wrong thing*

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When has that ever stopped anyone from arguing on the internet?

 

[prof_Chemical]

discovered this the other day.
just finished reading.
was fun.

am kinda dissapointed that the earth merlinwen went to wasnt our earth and she immediately had such a rough time for so long, but everything else the author has cooked was fun to follow, so i'll trust it'll go somewhere worthwile. same with the not!/ maybe? skyrim/ elderscrolls setting.

looking forward to the next update

 

[Iridesce]

With how sleepers in CoD are apparently near the abyss spiritually. Along with how Mei Wen has mentioned that the best way to enhance your necromancy affinity is to spend time around undead. Did Johns time in CoD as a sleeper give him a kinda void or abyssal affinity? As in, is that why the pet goat chose him?

 

[Neruz]

I wish people would stop acting like Faerun is the only setting that exists.

Merildwen is explicitly not from Faerun, for one thing.

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Some of the other settings came up with their own justifications for why spells were suddenly capped at 9th level, but most of them didn't. Most of the other settings, when transitioning to 3e, just ignored the whole thing entirely and pretended that standard spells had always been capped at 9th level.


In all cases however, 9th level is not actually the maximum level of spells, and never has been, which is the important part.

 

[Aineko]

Some of the other settings came up with their own justifications for why spells were suddenly capped at 9th level, but most of them didn't. Most of the other settings, when transitioning to 3e, just ignored the whole thing entirely and pretended that standard spells had always been capped at 9th level.


In all cases however, 9th level is not actually the maximum level of spells, and never has been, which is the important part.

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Has it in fact never been?

3e it was until they made epic level rules. I don't know whether 4th and 5th ever introduced >level 9 spells at all.

 

[Neruz]

Has it in fact never been?

3e it was until they made epic level rules. I don't know whether 4th and 5th ever introduced >level 9 spells at all.

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4th didn't have spell levels at all anymore because the Spellplague blew up the Weave (I forget what the explanation was for the other settings), but it did have Epic Tier which was considered approximately equivalent to 3's Epic levels. 5th I'm not sure, as 5th has been downscaled substantially power-wise in general. However characters with beyond 9th level spellcasting still exist, such as Elminster and Vecna, so it can be presumed that beyond 9th level spellcasting is still at least theoretically a thing.

 

[Trikr]

So, elven maiden got into WoD moreover likeley new WoD, and it very bd news for her. Especially If that New WoD where unlike (old) WoD all faction/settings are integrated, so fey, vampires ghosts mages and whoever more coexist. Unlike MC in xianxia her magic abilities are not unique at all to give significant bonus. She is just Sorcery (Static magic) user, and actually everybody (but Awakened mages aka Dinamic magic users) may learn use Sorcery, other supernatural beings just don't care to do it. Moreover she is just beginner level Static magic user. Actually IMO while beginner level Static magic user are really bottom feeders that can't hold candle for Awakened mages, on high (five point School mastery) levels they are by no means inferior (and being immune to Paradox are actually superior) it doesn't help her current situation at all.

PS If her spells are out of context problem for that world to the level that after she manages to master her high-level spells she would be able to also permanently posess bodies of supernatural entities (like true Fey) while trapping their souls it would be another story, but even so ot wpu;d thake decades. So likely only hope right now is to call for their favoite goat pet, he is lekely lesser evil and may be would be pleased to make close acquaintance with Arcadia and true fey.

 

[lukethreadwalker]

So, elven maiden got into WoD moreover likeley new WoD, and it very bd news for her. Especially If that New WoD where unlike (old) WoD all faction/settings are integrated, so fey, vampires ghosts mages and whoever more coexist. Unlike MC in xianxia her magic abilities are not unique at all to give significant bonus. She is just Sorcery (Static magic) user, and actually everybody (but Awakened mages aka Dinamic magic users) may learn use Sorcery, other supernatural beings just don't care to do it. Moreover she is just beginner level Static magic user. Actually IMO while beginner level Static magic user are really bottom feeders that can't hold candle for Awakened mages, on high (five point School mastery) levels they are by no means inferior (and being immune to Paradox are actually superior) it doesn't help her current situation at all.

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We have not seen her use magic in the "real" world. We only know that Message was an out of context problem that completely bypassed a core ability of a Fey Noble. Considering Mei Wen's experience we could infer that part of Merildwen's magic could be recreated by Sorcery but that others completely upend the balance of the setting and might have surprising versatility. I can't imagine Time Stop + making the targets surroundings hostile to life (if she can get to that spell) is in any way weak in any non high fantasy setting.

Let's say we look at Disintegrate in 3.5, the description is "Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6)". It says it deals just "damage" not force or any other kind, so you could decide that it deals pure unresitible damage or that the spell fizzles as no damage type means it deals inexistent damage.

So there is no point to consider if Merildwen's magic is strong or weak in WoD. The author will make some worldbuilding choices and we will get to enjoy a delicious chapter.

 

[Trikr]

We have not seen her use magic in the "real" world. We only know that Message was an out of context problem that completely bypassed a core ability of a Fey Noble. Considering Mei Wen's experience we could infer that part of Merildwen's magic could be recreated by Sorcery but that others completely upend the balance of the setting and might have surprising versatility. I can't imagine Time Stop + making the targets surroundings hostile to life (if she can get to that spell) is in any way weak in any non high fantasy setting.

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I can't imagine Time Stop + making the targets surroundings hostile to life (if she can get to that spell) is in any way weak in any non high fantasy setting.
May be you don't understand WoD setting. That place is very high fantasy conceptual setting where the world is defined by the will and consciousness of it inhabitants, will define reality. It's the difference between Awakened mags (that just directly enforce their will on reality and thus Paradox is just immune reaction of reality if they are not mild enough and push too much) and Sorcery (Static Magic) that operates within boundaries of the laws of the world (think of them as having Admin access and on high level they may ask from the world almost any effect, time travel sheningans and summoning any subservient supernatural being or magical item with any properties from your dream included) and thus Paradox don't apply (as it doesn't apply to abilites of supernatural creatures that are legal part of this world).
So Meri's hope is that her limited spell effects would be out of context problem, bypassing natural laws of current reality and not invoking immune reaction of Paradox.

 

[lukethreadwalker]

So Meri's hope is that her limited spell effects would be out of context problem, bypassing natural laws of current reality and not invoking immune reaction of Paradox.

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Which is why we should wait to see how the author decides on how the two magic systems interact.

But if you need some fractions of seconds to think and use your godly powers then your time stopping means that from your perspective you are instantly attacked by something that does pure damage like Disintegrate. You might have conceptual defenses but this is the first time those defenses have met a D&D spell.

I think it is pointless to speculate, the weight we give to one system or another is merely the emotional one they have in each of our minds. The subjective cool factor.