Cultivating Magic

[Zoolimar]

Even if the Technocratic Union did exist in-setting, they'd still have a problem -- a huge one -- with a paradox-free arcanist. Such a person would be a walking embodiment of the notion that the Union's Reality was /false/, and such a Reality Deviant would need to be eradicated at all costs if discovered. We're talking orbital bombardment by fusion warheads here.

Click to shrink...

Thing is she is not really an arcanist/mage as they define it. She doesn't bend reality to her will. She produces repeatable, consistent results that can be taught to anyone. No need for any waking up. Arcane magic can be taught to any person of above average intelligence or just capable of memorizing the mental constructs needed for its use. Ultimately arcane magic is applied science of Planar mechanics that is much more "hard" than Technocracy's own brand.

Yeah, some probably would want to kill Merildwen but I can easily see it creating a big split in Technocracy where at least some factions want to learn the new much more robust power system that doesn't tend to implode its practitioners on a whim.

 

[Ashran]

Yeah, her magic is a massive boon to those that havent tied their power to the local magic's volatility. Which is literally the whole world except a very minor minority btw. There is no masquerade strong enough to supress the entirety of Earth learning about replicable stable magic. Unlike the other MC, Merildwen would benefit from not being unique and thus creating a magic Earth where everyone knows about it and uses it. After the initial chaos passes ofc but as a Changeling she can just hide away.

 

[Iridesce]

Yeah, her magic is a massive boon to those that havent tied their power to the local magic's volatility. Which is literally the whole world except a very minor minority btw. There is no masquerade strong enough to supress the entirety of Earth learning about replicable stable magic. Unlike the other MC, Merildwen would benefit from not being unique and thus creating a magic Earth where everyone knows about it and uses it. After the initial chaos passes ofc but as a Changeling she can just hide away.

Click to shrink...

Well. There kinda is a masquerade strong enough. It's called the Lie and it literally makes non magicals (sleepers) actually literally incapable of seeing or reacting to the supernatural. So while the various supernaturals could learn the sleepers would still not be able to see past the Lie.

 

[Logos01]

Thing is she is not really an arcanist/mage as they define it. She doesn't bend reality to her will. She produces repeatable, consistent results that can be taught to anyone. No need for any waking up. Arcane magic can be taught to any person of above average intelligence or just capable of memorizing the mental constructs needed for its use. Ultimately arcane magic is applied science of Planar mechanics that is much more "hard" than Technocracy's own brand.

Yeah, some probably would want to kill Merildwen but I can easily see it creating a big split in Technocracy where at least some factions want to learn the new much more robust power system that doesn't tend to implode its practitioners on a whim.

Click to shrink...

What you're not getting is that they have a specific paradigm of Science. With that paradigm, they've gotten to the point where they can literally rewrite the laws of physics of reality (which is a thing they did to punish the Etherites for not playing ball, replacing Ether theory with light propagating in a vacuum. This is what made the Etherites cease being a Convention and take over the Ahl-i-Batin's seat as the Matter Tradition.).

If they wanted to have paradox-free non-Awakened practitioners, they would just train more Extraordinary Citizens. (Their name for "linear superscientists" or hedge mages/sorcerors who follow the Technocracy's paradigm.)

Someone coming in with an actual system of /magic/ that doesn't create Paradox even in the middle of a Deep Construct? No, there would be no splits over this. That's outright anethema to everything the Union has existed for since it was founded as the Order of Reason in the 1200's.

They /know/ that Science is the Answer. You don't Enlighten without understanding that. Magic of any kind is Superstitionist nonsense designed to oppress the masses and permit the predation of horrors and monstrosities -- be they in human form or otherwise. Anything that weakens the hold of Science on the masses MUST be destroyed. For the Greater Good.

Technocrats are not "mages" and they will straight up murder anyone who suggests they become mages. Because that's outright treason.

 

[Zoolimar]

Someone coming in with an actual system of /magic/ that doesn't create Paradox even in the middle of a Deep Construct? No, there would be no splits over this. That's outright anethema to everything the Union has existed for since it was founded as the Order of Reason in the 1200's.

Click to shrink...

That would be a big split with agents on the ground. Who need to deal with all the bullshit that the world throws at you and know for certain that there are already systems of magic that don't care about Paradox - just most of them are in inhuman hands. Higher ups care about their big plans and projects, operatives need to actually deal with Cthulhu that didn't got the memo that its powers are not supposed to work.

And I bet a lot of more grounded technocrats would care more about results than "the Answer" that doesn't really work as good as big bosses think.

 

[Logos01]

And I bet a lot of more grounded technocrats would care more about results than "the Answer" that doesn't really work as good as big bosses think.

Click to shrink...

Not if they don't want to be disappeared. NWO uses actual factual memory editing and brain washing on their own personnel to ensure compliance. Iteration X all have mind-computer brain implants that can be remotely accessed to ensure compliance or terminate the rebellious. Void Engineers (functionally) never go anywhere their paradigm would generate paradox and are too busy fighting eldritch horrors in their Star Trek esque space battles. The Syndicate would be the only ones who might be interested -- at their lowest levels -- and the rest of the Conventions would love to have the excuse to erase them for it. The Progenitors ... might want to vivisect her to see if there's a biological component to the power, sure, but adopt it over their own methods? "Have you been dosing your own supply, Doctor?"

The Technocracy don't have "mages." They /hate/ Mages. The Answer is the Plan, and they from top to bottom are dedicated to it -- often by means of Enlightened Science, if not outright 24/7/52 surveillance Panopticon style.

Thinking the way you're describing -- and more importantly being noticed to think that way -- is a great way to get "reassigned to D-Class research staff" or otherwise never be seen again after being snatched out of your own bedroom in the middle of the night by a Construct of MiB's.

There would absolutely /NOT/ be any such split. The lowest grunts would be Enlightened Operatives and Extraordinary Citizens -- and you just don't get to be either of those things without deeply believing in the cause of Science and Reason.

 

[Ashran]

Well. There kinda is a masquerade strong enough. It's called the Lie and it literally makes non magicals (sleepers) actually literally incapable of seeing or reacting to the supernatural. So while the various supernaturals could learn the sleepers would still not be able to see past the Lie.

Click to shrink...

That does not apply to arcane magic however. Only to paradox magic and related conceptual based bullshit.

 

[Logos01]

That does not apply to arcane magic however. Only to paradox magic and related conceptual based bullshit.

Click to shrink...

You're confusing settings with each other. Chronicles of Darkness doesn't have "Paradox magic". That's not to be confused with Paradox, but that doesn't come from a "conceptual" source but the Abyss pushing back at misuse of Gnosis.

There's nothing notably intrinsic to Merildwen's wizardry that would render it safe from Paradox in CofD. She may not be drawing in the Realms Supernal as CofD Mages do, but she's certainly not drawing on powers native to the mundane world. So the Abyss still has a chance to react.

 

[Iridesce]

You're confusing settings with each other. Chronicles of Darkness doesn't have "Paradox magic". That's not to be confused with Paradox, but that doesn't come from a "conceptual" source but the Abyss pushing back at misuse of Gnosis.

There's nothing notably intrinsic to Merildwen's wizardry that would render it safe from Paradox in CofD. She may not be drawing in the Realms Supernal as CofD Mages do, but she's certainly not drawing on powers native to the mundane world. So the Abyss still has a chance to react.

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure that DnD magic wouldn't have problems with paradox. I'm pretty sure that the way paradox works in CoD is that when you cast a spell you have to reach through the abyss to reach the supernal and sometimes you fuck up and drag some of the abyss along for the ride. Archmages don't suffer from this problem because their golden road won't get tainted with the abyss. So because DnD magic doesn't interact with the supernal paradox shouldn't be a problem.

Notably you don't have to cross the abyss to get to say the shadow, so drawing on outside forces doesn't mean you interact with the abyss. The abyss only bars the supernal.

The Lie should still hide stuff though just like it hides vampires and such.

 

[Logos01]

Notably you don't have to cross the abyss to get to say the shadow, so drawing on outside forces doesn't mean you interact with the abyss. The abyss only bars the supernal.

Click to shrink...

That's ... Not entirely correct. The Abyss is "unreality, that which isn't". The Shadow is still connected to the mundane world, and as such is native. The Supernal Realms thanks to the shattering of the Celestial Ladder were disconnected from reality and can now only be accessed through the Abyss.

Merildwen isn't calling on a native power when she performs wizardry. She may not be calling on one of the known Supernal Realms, but that doesn't change the fact that she's connecting to something that metaphysically isn't native to the local cosmos.

So the odds she's not drawing through the Abyss are functionally non-existent.

 

[Iridesce]

That's ... Not entirely correct. The Abyss is "unreality, that which isn't". The Shadow is still connected to the mundane world, and as such is native. The Supernal Realms thanks to the shattering of the Celestial Ladder were disconnected from reality and can now only be accessed through the Abyss.

Merildwen isn't calling on a native power when she performs wizardry. She may not be calling on one of the known Supernal Realms, but that doesn't change the fact that she's connecting to something that metaphysically isn't native to the local cosmos.

So the odds she's not drawing through the Abyss are functionally non-existent.

Click to shrink...

In that case I don't think that Merildwen should be able to use DnD magic at all. A sleepwalker can't learn magic because they can't reach across the abyss. Awakened mages don't really reach across the abyss normally even, they are basically facilitated by the watchtowers. The only ones who reach across on their own are archmages.

So she's either incapable of magic at all, which we know isn't true. The abyss isn't a problem because she's not reaching across it. She's having something facilitate her. Or she's basically an archmage (in which case the abyss/paradox isn't a problem).

 

[Logos01]

In that case I don't think that Merildwen should be able to use DnD magic at all. A sleepwalker can't learn magic because they can't reach across the abyss. Awakened mages don't really reach across the abyss normally even, they are basically facilitated by the watchtowers. The only ones who reach across on their own are archmages.

So she's either incapable of magic at all, which we know isn't true. The abyss isn't a problem because she's not reaching across it. She's having something facilitate her. Or she's basically an archmage (in which case the abyss/paradox isn't a problem).

Click to shrink...

Who says she's unawakened? She had a My Pet Goat experience too, y'know...

Besides which, maybe Awakening is part of what it takes to become a wizard.

The point being: alien metaphysics are at play here, but they have to interface with the native metaphysics.

 

[Iridesce]

Who says she's unawakened? She had a My Pet Goat experience too, y'know...

Besides which, maybe Awakening is part of what it takes to become a wizard.

The point being: alien metaphysics are at play here, but they have to interface with the native metaphysics.

Click to shrink...

Well awakening is getting a direct connection to one of the watchtowers. You basically carry part of one of them in you. If you don't have that you aren't an awakened. So I guess she could have part of the pet goat in herself but she'd probably be a drooling mess at that point.

 

[Zoolimar]

That's ... Not entirely correct. The Abyss is "unreality, that which isn't".

Click to shrink...

That's more or less Far Realms in D&D terminology. Which is the place where Her Pet Goat comes from. She doesn't need any awakening or to care about the Abyss as long Her Pet Goat isn't angry with her - it basically acts as the magical conductor from D&D multiverse to the WoD one. Like a giant fleshy tube stretched beyond all reason regurgitating magic for the little chick.

 

[Logos01]

That's more or less Far Realms in D&D terminology. Which is the place where Her Pet Goat comes from. She doesn't need any awakening or to care about the Abyss as long Her Pet Goat isn't angry with her - it basically acts as the magical conductor from D&D multiverse to the WoD one. Like a giant fleshy tube stretched beyond all reason regurgitating magic for the little chick.

Click to shrink...

That would make her a Warlock, not a Wizard. She might be following the connection of the eldritch one to keep her OG metaphysics accessible, but she's drawing the power from the Weave, not the Pet Goat. So arguably she's drawing her power through the Abyss just like any CofD Mage. With all the commensurate potential consequences therein.

It's a conflict of metaphysics that means how one resolves the two settings against each other is really up to the author.

 

[chocolote12]

That would make her a Warlock, not a Wizard. She might be following the connection of the eldritch one to keep her OG metaphysics accessible, but she's drawing the power from the Weave, not the Pet Goat. So arguably she's drawing her power through the Abyss just like any CofD Mage. With all the commensurate potential consequences therein.

It's a conflict of metaphysics that means how one resolves the two settings against each other is really up to the author.

Click to shrink...

The weave is a specific world building element from one world in D&D canon, isn't it?

Anywhere else it's just sparkling arcane knowledge.

Mei Wen in particular implies through her narration that the energy is sourced internally, and increasing the energy within her directly increases the quantity and quality of what she has available.

 

[Logos01]

The weave is a specific world building element from one world in D&D canon, isn't it?

Anywhere else it's just sparkling arcane knowledge.

Mei Wen in particular implies through her narration that the energy is sourced internally, and increasing the energy within her directly increases the quantity and quality of what she has available.

Click to shrink...

Right but the distinction between wizard and sorceror is that a sorceror is using innate magic and a wizard is drawing upon some other source and transforming it through spell formulae which they then "hang" until completed, thus finalizing the casting of the spell. Hence spell memorization, going back to Vance's Dying Earth setting.

Mei Wen's wizardry using her cultivation base and having more spell slots as it advances are easily confused as being sorcery, but there's a meaningful distinction: she still performs the memorizations, she's just channeling the cultivation base into doing so at that time and because Cultivation works that way, it can still boost at time of casting. The increased spell slots are a result of the increased mental capacities that come with cultivation (I e.; on top of being a viable spell power source for wizardry, cultivation also increases the Int score. But those aren't quite the same thing.)

In other words, Mei Wen represents the fusion of D&D Wizardry and Cultivation-land.

Mirrordwen by contrast will be representing the fusion of D&D Wizardry and CofD.

Since those settings work dramatically differently from each other, that should be reflected in how their abilities evolve. A difference that will only be compounded for Mirrordwen as she gains whatever cultivation knowledge Mei Wen gives her. (If only out of guilt because holy shit dropping that bad end on someone...)

---

You know what just occurred to me? John's cat is almost certainly dead by now. Hopefully the ex-girlfriend gave it a good life though.

 

[Iridesce]

Right but the distinction between wizard and sorceror is that a sorceror is using innate magic and a wizard is drawing upon some other source and transforming it through spell formulae which they then "hang" until completed, thus finalizing the casting of the spell. Hence spell memorization, going back to Vance's Dying Earth setting.

Mei Wen's wizardry using her cultivation base and having more spell slots as it advances are easily confused as being sorcery, but there's a meaningful distinction.

Click to shrink...

That's not how it's working for Mei Wen though. She's not pre casting hanging spells. She's basically doing what a sorcerer does, casting immediately. This was what she was doing before ending up in cultivation land even.

 

[chocolote12]

Right but the distinction between wizard and sorceror is that a sorceror is using innate magic and a wizard is drawing upon some other source and transforming it through spell formulae which they then "hang" until completed, thus finalizing the casting of the spell. Hence spell memorization, going back to Vance's Dying Earth setting.

Click to shrink...

That system of magic isn't employed in 5e, unfortunately. Wizards and sorcerers cast mostly identically in 5e, save that sorcerers get to add a bit of extra energy to their spells for metamagic and wizards get to totally rework their memorized spell list every day.

The main difference is largely whether they're obtaining their spell slots (undifferentiated magical batteries in all cases, not the spells they can spend them to cast) from genetics or meditation.

 

[Zoolimar]

That system of magic isn't employed in 5e, unfortunately. Wizards and sorcerers cast mostly identically in 5e, save that sorcerers get to add a bit of extra energy to their spells for metamagic and wizards get to totally rework their memorized spell list every day.

Click to shrink...

That was the same in 3.5. Ultimately only creatures who use their abilities as Extraordinary powers and do not lose them in Anti Magic Field are actually doing it through internal power - dragon's fire breath and flight for example. Everyone else doing spells, spell likes and supernatural abilities is pulling on the Planes or other lesser powers and thus could be denied this magic through different means.

For Mei Wen it means that she will lose her wizardry in AMF but keep her Qi powers.

 

[Aineko]

In D&D 5e 'weave of magic' is referenced in the PHB, though it probably isn't necessarily the Forgotten Realms one.

Right but the distinction between wizard and sorceror is that a sorceror is using innate magic and a wizard is drawing upon some other source and transforming it through spell formulae which they then "hang" until completed, thus finalizing the casting of the spell. Hence spell memorization, going back to Vance's Dying Earth setting.

Click to shrink...

Not sure that's true, and it's certainly not the right emphasis. Wizards may be powered by an outside source - they don't have the emphasis on being their own magic source that sorcerers do - but they also don't emphasize the external source like warlocks or divine casters do. It's not normally the true metaphysics, but wizards act a lot like the spell formulae are the power source.

That was the same in 3.5. Ultimately only creatures who use their abilities as Extraordinary powers and do not lose them in Anti Magic Field are actually doing it through internal power - dragon's fire breath and flight for example. Everyone else doing spells, spell likes and supernatural abilities is pulling on the Planes or other lesser powers and thus could be denied this magic through different means.

For Mei Wen it means that she will lose her wizardry in AMF but keep her Qi powers.

Click to shrink...

No it wasn't: in 3.5 you prepared your exact set of available casts for the day. In 5e you prepare which spells you are able to cast for the day, but how many of which ones you cast is up to you to decide in the moment rather than at preparation time.

Meridwen seems to have this upgraded by not needing to select a subset of her full spell list to be available at a given time.

Additional note: Meridwen seems to be able to cast basically any spell as a ritual, trading time for not depleting casting capacity. This is not the tabletop rule by a long shot! Very handy for her though. In the tabletop rules only certain spells can be ritual cast. (But they do offer the advantage of not needing to be prepared in addition to not consuming spell slots.)

 

[SaltyBoi]

That was the same in 3.5. Ultimately only creatures who use their abilities as Extraordinary powers and do not lose them in Anti Magic Field are actually doing it through internal power - dragon's fire breath and flight for example. Everyone else doing spells, spell likes and supernatural abilities is pulling on the Planes or other lesser powers and thus could be denied this magic through different means.

For Mei Wen it means that she will lose her wizardry in AMF but keep her Qi powers.

Click to shrink...

No, in 3.5e, every slot you had was prepared with a specific spell, and meta-magic if you had and wanted to use that. In 5e, you're just a sorcerer that can change your spells known to whatever you have in your spellbook each morning. So a 3.5e wizard might prepare Sleep in two of their first level slots, and Shield in a third, which would let them cast Sleep twice and Shield once, and no other first level spells. If they wanted to cast a still, silent fireball, they would need to prepare that spell in a fifth level slot, and could then cast it, because each of those added on to the spell level, and the base level of fireball is 3. A sorcerer would need to have fireball on their list of spells known, then decide to expend a fifth level slot casting that spell with those metamagics, which would increase the casting time to one full-round action. If the spell had a casting time that was at least one full-round action, it added one full-round action, so a spell like Geas, with a casting time of ten minutes, would instead have a casting time of 10 minutes and one round, or 101 rounds.

 

[Shadell]

Honestly, we shouldn't expect it to stick too close to canon, given the changes to D&D canon. The fact is that she can cast, and more will be learned later on.


My bigger point of curiosity is whether cultivation techniques will work across worlds.

 

[Iridesce]

Honestly, we shouldn't expect it to stick too close to canon, given the changes to D&D canon. The fact is that she can cast, and more will be learned later on.


My bigger point of curiosity is whether cultivation techniques will work across worlds.

Click to shrink...

Cultivation seems to be absorbing external magical/supernatural energies to change your soul. At least that is what it is up to the golden core realm. So, assuming external energies exist to absorb and souls are consistent across worlds it should work.

Now there is a problem that Merildwen would run across that the parents wouldn't. Because of the abyss magical energy is scarce in CoD. Energies don't cross over from the supernal realms so unless she's in a hallow there might not be anything to absorb. So unless she can absorb whatever Fae run on, is willing to absorb life force or can use whatever spirits use she has a problem.

The parents should have no problems because the stars in the Elder Scrolls lead directly to atherius. So the world is positively drowning in magic.

 

[Logos01]

So unless she can absorb whatever Fae run on, is willing to absorb life force or can use whatever spirits use she has a problem.

Click to shrink...

Fae Glamour, yeah. Or Ghost's Essence. Or Vitae from a Vampire. Being a necromancer by trade I'd imagine developing a Blood Qi cultivation art to let her store mortals' life energy in Vitae form wouldn't be much of a challenge.

I can't imagine that True Fae meeting Mirrordwen would be anything but confused by the Sam Haightness of her existence at that point though.