...Yes you do?

I mean, what do you think "historical Jesus" means? It doesn't mean "all stories about this man are true." It means "there was a man who founded a small sect of very devoted followers that kept spreading his messages after his death until it spread into Christianity."


Which is pretty much the standard historians apply to Jesus. Multiple non-contemporary accounts being the main ones, since itinerant preachers don't leave a ton of archaeological evidence.

If you're not insisting that we "teach the controversy" on the existence of Hannibal, there's very little reason to do the same thing on the physical existence of Jesus.
Hannibal has better evidence than Jesus does, both non contemporary records, citations of contemporary records, coins (that may or many not be about Hannibal), and archeological evidence of the possible alp crossing.
But here's the thing, maybe he did not exist. Then what? One of major events of Roman history did not happen, or happened differently, or happened with different actors.

Wait, you're saying that "well we have record of a guy called Jesus doing some preaching during that time period" is not sufficient to consider that... there was a guy named Jesus doing some preaching during that time period ?
There could have been dozens of guys named Jesus running around doing preaching, and none of them were the origin point of Christianity.
Historical Jesus refers to a specific Jesus, the origin point (or points) or Christianity.
 
Hannibal has better evidence than Jesus does, both non contemporary records, citations of contemporary records, coins (that may or many not be about Hannibal), and archeological evidence of the possible alp crossing.
But here's the thing, maybe he did not exist. Then what? One of major events of Roman history did not happen, or happened differently, or happened with different actors.


There could have been dozens of guys named Jesus running around doing preaching, and none of them were the origin point of Christianity.
Historical Jesus refers to a specific Jesus, the origin point (or points) or Christianity.

Don't you see how tenuous this is? Apparently people (who aren't Christian or even pro-Christian) attest, "A Jesus existed, and he's the foundation of Christianity" but instead of this Jesus, Christians just made up another figure also named Jesus unrelatedly... and then for no particular reason made him from Nazareth, even though the Messiah is supposed to be born in Bethlehem? Just to make sure he gets confused with Jesus of Nazareth, a completely unrelated figure who played no role in Christianity at all?
 
There could have been dozens of guys named Jesus running around doing preaching, and none of them were the origin point of Christianity.
Historical Jesus refers to a specific Jesus, the origin point (or points) or Christianity.
I mean if your counterargument is "ah ah, but how do you know that there wasn't several Jesuses doing the same thing at the same time at the same place" I don't know what to tell you
 
No, i don't think it is. Because when we talk of Hannibal, we are not talking about some random dude who was named Hannibal, we are talking about a guy who did specific things. Big things, things that would be noticed and remembered, so someone writing about him decades afterwards is not that much of a reach, even if i would take any specifics with a huge grain of salt.
And Jesus also did a fairly big thing:

Found Christianity.

As such, he is attested to by pretty much everyone who talks about Christianity after it becomes a thing of any cultural interest (that is, a while after he died). His followers attributed all sorts of miracles to him. More skeptical outside commentators simply said "he lived, preached, died, and surprisingly his followers hung around after his death."

Since Christianity wasn't of as much historical interest to Romans in the first century or two after Jesus died, compared to the campaigns of Hannibal, less was written about him directly... except among the Christians themselves. But there's enough there to corroborate the idea that the guy isn't a Paul Bunyan, isn't just a completely fictional character made up long after the fact.

He gets offhand mention in sources not long after his death because he wasn't that important to them, but the fact that they saw fit to mention him at all strongly suggests that had reason to think he was a real person.
 
Don't you see how tenuous this is? Apparently people (who aren't Christian or even pro-Christian) attest, "A Jesus existed, and he's the foundation of Christianity" but instead of this Jesus, Christians just made up another figure also named Jesus unrelatedly... and then for no particular reason made him from Nazareth, even though the Messiah is supposed to be born in Bethlehem? Just to make sure he gets confused with Jesus of Nazareth, a completely unrelated figure who played no role in Christianity at all?
See, the problem is that i have a sneaking suspicion, that even assuming these passages are genuine, they are using christians as a source of information.

I mean if your counterargument is "ah ah, but how do you know that there wasn't several Jesuses doing the same thing at the same time at the same place" I don't know what to tell you
That was not my argument.
I'm going to assume i am bad at explaining because the other options are not going to help this conversation.
So, again, finding out that there was a preacher named Jesus is not the same as finding the guy who was the origin of Christianity.
Because the point is not about just finding a specific guy who is named Jesus, but finding the guy who was the historical start of the whole damn thing.

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And Jesus also did a fairly big thing:

Found Christianity.


As such, he is attested to by pretty much everyone who talks about Christianity after it becomes a thing of any cultural interest (that is, a while after he died). His followers attributed all sorts of miracles to him. More skeptical outside commentators simply said "he lived, preached, died, and surprisingly his followers hung around after his death."

Since Christianity wasn't of as much historical interest to Romans in the first century or two after Jesus died, compared to the campaigns of Hannibal, less was written about him directly... except among the Christians themselves. But there's enough there to corroborate the idea that the guy isn't a Paul Bunyan, isn't just a completely fictional character made up long after the fact.

He gets offhand mention in sources not long after his death because he wasn't that important to them, but the fact that they saw fit to mention him at all strongly suggests that had reason to think he was a real person.
Did he?
This assumes that Christianity was founded by this specific person, instead of being started by someone else due to having weird dreams.
Cults do come out of nowhere, they do today, they did back then, guy named Jesus is not needed for Christianity to become a thing.
 
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Ah, I think I see where the breakdown is. If you don't mind, I'd like to confirm my understanding your position?

Am I right in saying you think that any supernatural element is inherently dogmatic (used here to mean "anything you're told is true without scientific proof", rather than "a set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true"), and that philosophical and ethical teachings of religions are tied intrinsically to the supernatural such that they can't really be extricated, then? And, relatedly, that there is a meaninful (and potentially absolute) difference between a religion and a philosophical school, such as that something will only really qualify as one or the other?

I don't think that is quite where the meaningful distinction is.... ehh. Let me try to explain.

Thing is... Certainly, you can have dogmatism entirely without religion. Indeed, it has been observed how orthodox Marxism often behaved like religion that way, with references to established dogma and, if you will, a sort of holy books and a prophet. That is why I said I don't know how much Charvaka was a creed of faith and how much a philosophical school - because certainly, even entirely non-religious, materialist philosophies can become dogmatic and, in a way, creeds of faiths in themselves. But on the other hand, you also have philosophical schools which are not that. Or even philosophical schools where one part takes it as a creed of faith and the other part not.

So really, what is actually opposed to the scientific principle is dogmatism, which isn't reserved to religion alone. However, I do think that religion is, necessarily, a subset of dogmatism, because even in its more open and liberal variations, the a priori requirement for something to be a religion, a faith, a belief, is indeed believing in something. And this something is an article of faith, rather than the result of a deduction, much less an empirically tested hypothesis. Now, of course, none of us empirically tests every little thing in our daily lives, but religion raises that to its core concept - faith.

And yes, I absolutely do think the ethical teachings of a religion are intrinsically tied to its supernatural content. That is their metaehical legitimization: Because that is what God said, or because that is the way to Nirvana, etc. Now you may often come to the same conclusions as other ethical systems, but that is true in ethics in general: Murder is bad both in deontology (where it is intrinsically bad) or in utilitarianism (where it produces negative utility), and yet those are two different systems. And with religion, well, murder is bad because God said so, or because bad karma, etc. So religious ethics as a system absolutely do require the supernatural, and you can see that in practice with laws and commandments which are, well, much more specific than "Thou shalt not murder". In the end, laws against not plowing the field with an ox and a horse, or very specific fast dates, or the mandate to maintain very ancient and obscure temple rituals can really only be legitimized by the supernatural, i.e. (in most cases) "God/gods/the spirits/the saints said so".
 
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Because the point is not about just finding a specific guy who is named Jesus, but finding the guy who was the historical start of the whole damn thing.
And how can you do that if you don't recognize "at the place and time where Christianity was founded, there was a preacher called Jesus" as a valid argument ?
 
See, the problem is that i have a sneaking suspicion, that even assuming these passages are genuine, they are using christians as a source of information.


That was not my argument.
I'm going to assume i am bad at explaining because the other options are not going to help this conversation.
So, again, finding out that there was a preacher named Jesus is not the same as finding the guy who was the origin of Christianity.
Because the point is not about just finding a specific guy who is named Jesus, but finding the guy who was the historical start of the whole damn thing.

Tacitus hated Christians. Like, despised them and didn't think them credible sources, so the idea that he's just talking to all his Christian Friends (???, that he doesn't have because he hates them) and parroting their lines is... pretty off-base. You're now the one relying on just-so stories and elaborate what-ifs, rather than following the evidence.

In this case, it feels a lot like what Christian ideologues do in the face of the complete lack of historical evidence for the Judean Census[1] (which let me point out would have been a massively bigger deal at the time than some lame preacher whose tiny cult is still around, which is the POV of most people talking about Jesus at the time). They have spent a long time grasping at straws, or constructing stories to explain why nobody noticed it, commented on it, or even mentioned it off-hand (as, again, they did Jesus).

In both cases it feels like letting ideology overwhelm historical sense and evidence.

[1] Made up in bizarre fashion to explain why Jesus was actually from Bethlehem (where the Messiah is supposed to be from) despite being called "Of Nazareth."


This assumes that Christianity was founded by this specific person, instead of being started by someone else due to having weird dreams.
Cults do come out of nowhere, they do today, they did back then, guy named Jesus is not needed for Christianity to become a thing.

Also, cults founded by someone having a weird dream tend to have that 'figure who had a dream' as the originating point of the cult. That's not actually coming from nowhere, lol. So now someone just had a weird dream that... a person named Jesus that non-Christians say existed existed, and did a bunch of stuff, and died (as they agree happened)... and then went with it?
 
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And how can you do that if you don't recognize "at the place and time where Christianity was founded, there was a preacher called Jesus" as a valid argument ?
Do we even know the place and time Christianity was founded?
This is a time period of years to decades (we don't actually know the date of), and not even sure of how large a potential areas (somewhere in Judea?).
I don't know how common a name Jesus (or local equivalent) would have been.
That's the point i'm trying to make, you need more than a name and an extremely vague time/place.

Tacitus hated Christians. Like, despised them and didn't think them credible sources, so the idea that he's just talking to all his Christian Friends (???, that he doesn't have because he hates them) and parroting their lines is... pretty off-base. You're now the one relying on just-so stories and elaborate what-ifs, rather than following the evidence.

In this case, it feels a lot like what Christian ideologues do in the face of the complete lack of historical evidence for the Judean Census[1] (which let me point out would have been a massively bigger deal at the time than some lame preacher whose tiny cult is still around, which is the POV of most people talking about Jesus at the time). They have spent a long time grasping at straws, or constructing stories to explain why nobody noticed it, commented on it, or even mentioned it off-hand (as, again, they did Jesus).

In both cases it feels like letting ideology overwhelm historical sense and evidence.

[1] Made up in bizarre fashion to explain why Jesus was actually from Bethlehem (where the Messiah is supposed to be from) despite being called "Of Nazareth."




Also, cults founded by someone having a weird dream tend to have that 'figure who had a dream' as the originating point of the cult. That's not actually coming from nowhere, lol. So now someone just had a weird dream that... a person named Jesus that non-Christians say existed existed, and did a bunch of stuff, and died (as they agree happened)... and then went with it?
"They say we killed their messiah? Great, and good thing we did, the bastards"
That said, i was more thinking that Tacitus and Josephus were working from information that originates from Christians, instead of going out doing research and finding out what actually happened.

And maybe they did have, for first couple decades, but as other people started having the same dreams, that person got ignored or forgotten.
 
"They say we killed their Messiah? Great, and good thing we did, the bastards"
That said, i was more thinking that Tacitus and Josephus were working from information that originates from Christians, instead of going out doing research and finding out what actually happened.

And maybe they did have, for first couple decades, but as other people started having the same dreams, that person got ignored or forgotten.

Okay, which particular actual cult are you referring to? Because most things we call cults actually begin with a charismatic figure who has visions, who then supposedly does amazing things and gathers followers. If it survives past its founder, it often makes up a bunch of stories to embroider a more normal life, and these stories soon overwhelm the nugget of the actual person that existed, having all those dream visions or whatnot. Often the beliefs themselves change to be almost unrecognizable based on the actual original charismatic religious figure.

Hmm, it's almost as if I'm talking about Jesus of Nazareth.

Meanwhile your new just-so story involves people all having dreams where they make up a Messiah that came from the wrong town, was called the wrong name, and died in a humiliating, terrible fashion that often made it difficult for Christians to argue that he was the Messiah (since the cross at the time wasn't a holy symbol of divine suffering, and instead a terrible, degrading death). And then they continued to have these 'dreams' for decades??
 
And maybe they did have, for first couple decades, but as other people started having the same dreams, that person got ignored or forgotten.
This is not remotely how dreams work. This is the "Controversial Historical Opinions" thread, not the "Butcher Psychological Concepts" thread.
 
There are literally no contemporary mentions of Hannibal. Most mentions we have of most figures happen years or decades after their deaths.

Exactly. Clearly at Lake Trasimene all the Romans just blundered headlong into the lake and drowned and made up a story about Gauls and Carthaginians because they were embarrassed.

And Cannae... I dunno, I guess they all tripped on their caligae laces and fell and hit their heads like dominoes or something.
 
This is not remotely how dreams work. This is the "Controversial Historical Opinions" thread, not the "Butcher Psychological Concepts" thread.
People dream about similar things all the time if they are subjected to same concepts.
That's why alien abduction stories can often be so similar.
Sure, it might not be the exact same dream, but people who believe in a same thing will have similar revelations.
 
People dream about similar things all the time if they are subjected to same concepts.
That's why alien abduction stories can often be so similar.
Sure, it might not be the exact same dream, but people who believe in a same thing will have similar revelations.

And they dreamed that a guy named Jesus of Nazareth, who again didn't actually fit the Jewish beliefs about what the Messiah would be like, actually existed? And they continued to dream this despite Jesus honestly being a really inconvenient Messiah that forced them to work with the messy facts of his life to try to rearrange them to fit the beliefs that wind up going into the Gospel? Like you'd think that if Jews were somehow having dream-visions making up a figure that others attest existed, they'd have dream visions of someone who actually fit all the Jewish criteria for Messiah, since that's what they'd be looking for.

Also, sleep paralysis isn't dreaming.
 
Exactly. Clearly at Lake Trasimene all the Romans just blundered headlong into the lake and drowned and made up a story about Gauls and Carthaginians because they were embarrassed.

And Cannae... I dunno, I guess they all tripped on their caligae laces and fell and hit their heads like dominoes or something.
I know, that's the point.

The point is, it's stupid to pretend that a major historical figure was a fictional character just because our surviving chronicles of his actions postdate his death.
 
I know this probably isn't as controversial but I don't think the Catholic Church is one of the most evilest organizations ever nor did it invent misogyny.
 
So the argument that the figure who came to be known as the Messiah didn't exist is that thousands of people had an impossibly specific vision of a man claiming to bear a message from God.

So we've established that Jesus Christ is fake news but the Old Testament is historical fact.
 
I know this probably isn't as controversial but I don't think the Catholic Church is one of the most evilest organizations ever nor did it invent misogyny.

It has done great evils in its history. That does not negate the good it has done. Ergo its status as evilest of all organizations ever is contested.

No, it did not invent misogyny, it had a great hand in institutionalizing it however.
 
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Actually, no, this discussion is done on my part.
I do not have the patience to hold half a dozen parallel conversation.
The controversial view was put out there, and that's the end of it.
 
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Yes, that was exactly my argument, good show. :V

I expected that nobody would agree with me, but i did hope that there could be a discussion that did not involve insults and/or mockery.
Oh well, guess that teaches me. :thonk:

You came in with badly supported points and then we argued against those, and then you crafted a tenuous argument that involved far more assumptions than you even accused the "Jesus was a historical figure" camp of having.

Like, your argument involving dreams, psychology, and cults seems to be founded on no real evidence at all.
 
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Actually, no, this discussion is done on my part.
I do not have the patience to hold half a dozen parallel conversation.
The controversial view was put out there, and that's the end of it.
If you're interested at all, I can recommend a site where an atheist historian goes into detail on the arguments for a historical Jesus, and into how tenuous the arguments against it tend to be.

historyforatheists.com

History for Atheists

History for Atheists
 
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Actually, no, this discussion is done on my part.
I do not have the patience to hold half a dozen parallel conversation.
The controversial view was put out there, and that's the end of it.
An argument as poorly supported as yours would have been eviscerated far beyond the mild snark you received here in any academic setting. Your "controversial opinion" is more akin to the "controversy" surrounding climate change: There isn't one among people who actually have knowledge of the facts.
 
All religions follow axiomatically from certain central doctrines which are hence, yes, dogma. It doesn't matter what religion. You can't have a Christianity or Islam if you don't take the existence of God for granted, because everything else rests on that (you can't have a final prophet of God if there is no God etc etc). You can't have Hinduism or Shinto if the Hinduist or Shintoist deities don't exist. You can't have Buddhism if you don't accept the Noble Eightfold Path, with everything springing from there. And so on and so forth.

That is why I said "even religion in its most reduced forms". The fundamentalists don't need to be correct in their interpretation of religion, but even theologically more liberal and open conceptions of religion will still have core lines of belief, because that is fundamentally what a religion is. Christianity is the religion of the people who believe in Jesus Christ. Islam is the religion of the people who believe in Mohammed as the Last Prophet. And so on.

Like... that's definational. That's what defines religions.
You're doing exactly what people have been asking you not to for pages now and generalizing to all religions based on Christian-derived ideas.

orthodoxy is largely a Christian invention (some might even say aberration). Historically, most religions were/are orthropraxic. Correct action and ritual matter; not correct doctrine. Zeus cares about whether you offered him those sweet sweet hecatombs, not whether you actually believe in his divinity or correctly understand his relationship with Hades and Poisedon.

I don't think Hellenistic paganism even has/had a dogma at all.
 
You're doing exactly what people have been asking you not to for pages now and generalizing to all religions based on Christian-derived ideas.

orthodoxy is largely a Christian invention (some might even say aberration). Historically, most religions were/are orthropraxic. Correct action and ritual matter; not correct doctrine. Zeus cares about whether you offered him those sweet sweet hecatombs, not whether you actually believe in his divinity or correctly understand his relationship with Hades and Poisedon.

I don't think Hellenistic paganism even has/had a dogma at all.
So far I have been discussing with one person, and I have addressed that person's erronous claim I would attribute a Christian mindset to all religions. So take your false argumentum ad populum and cram it.

Here is the thing, though: Yes, orthopraxy was historically more important than orthodoxy. Of course, with the three largest religions now being Christianity, Islam and Buddhism, that is not the case anymore, and that is not just a Christian or even only Abrahamic thing, but yes, it used to be. However, even in that case - making the correct sacrifice to Zeus still rests on the basic assumption that Zeus exists, doesn't it?

I think it's in fact you who do not understand my point. My point is that any and all axiomatic a priori assumption of such things, and even if it is just "Zeus exists", is contrary to the scientific principle. You don't even need a special stress on believing the exactly right doctrines.
 
So far I have been discussing with one person, and I have addressed that person's erronous claim I would attribute a Christian mindset to all religions. So take your false argumentum ad populum and cram it.

Here is the thing, though: Yes, orthopraxy was historically more important than orthodoxy. Of course, with the three largest religions now being Christianity, Islam and Buddhism, that is not the case anymore, and that is not just a Christian or even only Abrahamic thing, but yes, it used to be. However, even in that case - making the correct sacrifice to Zeus still rests on the basic assumption that Zeus exists, doesn't it?

I think it's in fact you who do not understand my point. My point is that any and all axiomatic a priori assumption of such things, and even if it is just "Zeus exists", is contrary to the scientific principle. You don't even need a special stress on believing the exactly right doctrines.
except there were/are practicioners of Hellenistic paganism believed no such thing.

You can practice Hellenistic neopaganism without any belief in gods as anything except very anthropomorphized metaphors for cyclical phenomena in nature- and enjoy or find significance in the ritual and poetry attached to such.

daoism's core book is extremely short and to my understanding assumes basically nothing - the dao that can be understood is not the true dao.


science in fact assumes several things a priori. That there is a reality and that we can learn things about it using certain processes, for starters.

"but what if we're acshually in the matrix? And "is reality real" are the domain of philosophy, rather than science in the sense of "scientific method"
 
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