So, you reject the self-identification of Mao as a Communist?

Mao certainly did consider himself a Communist. In his June 1975 meeting with Pol Pot (the guy in charge of the genocide in Cambodia), Mao gave him the gift of some 30 books by Karl Marx and urged Pol Pot to "continue the path towards socialism".

I honestly don't get the idea of reclaiming Communism from the likes of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.

To wit: in the southern suburbs of the city where I live, there is a small band of Neo-Nazi. On occasion, they get a permit to broadcast on an FM band, where they talk about Jewish conspiracies and play Heavy Metal (or as they call it "Aryan Rock"). On occasion, they are also interviewed by journalists who will ask them likely "why the f*** are you a nazi?" or "Do you deny the holocaust?" Their answer is mostly along the lines that for them being Nazis is about protecting workers rights and wages, that they are against environmental pollution and that they are against bureaucracy. The follow-up question that never materializes, though, "but why call yourself a Nazi then?" The policy points that they typically mention are fairly mainstream points, which can be found in many political parties, so it kinda leaves the impression of a hidden agenda in using the swastika as their symbol of choice.

Similarly, if you believe in workers right, redistribution, equality and what have you - why associate yourself with the bloodstained banner of Communism? Why not do as e.g. the German Greens have done and simply use a new banner that isn't associated with several genocides?
I didn't say communist, I said Marxist. You can be the 1st without the 2nd. But you can't be a Marxist and reject everything Marx said. Sort of like you can't rightly call yourself a Christian if you think Jesus was wrong about everything, or a Platonist while rejecting the ideas of Plato.
 
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Nazis don't actually have an ideological foundation that's not just an excuse for mass-murder. Various communisms and anarchisms, on the other hand, have a rich set of works on politics, the economy, etc, etc. It's impossible to look at the world from a Nazi framework without in your heart of hearts wanting to commit genocide, but Marxist historical analysis, for instance, is a reasonably widely used framework used even by people who don't want to institute the dictatorship of the proletariat or whatnot. :V

It's like one is a long-running (set of) ideological project(s) lasting centuries and creating dozens and dozens of spin-off ideologies, and another is the wet fart of antisemitic militarist death-cultists in the 1920s, 30s, and 40s.
 
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So, you reject the self-identification of Mao as a Communist?

Mao certainly did consider himself a Communist. In his June 1975 meeting with Pol Pot (the guy in charge of the genocide in Cambodia), Mao gave him the gift of some 30 books by Karl Marx and urged Pol Pot to "continue the path towards socialism".

I honestly don't get the idea of reclaiming Communism from the likes of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.

To wit: in the southern suburbs of the city where I live, there is a small band of Neo-Nazi. On occasion, they get a permit to broadcast on an FM band, where they talk about Jewish conspiracies and play Heavy Metal (or as they call it "Aryan Rock"). On occasion, they are also interviewed by journalists who will ask them likely "why the f*** are you a nazi?" or "Do you deny the holocaust?" Their answer is mostly along the lines that for them being Nazis is about protecting workers rights and wages, that they are against environmental pollution and that they are against bureaucracy. The follow-up question that never materializes, though, "but why call yourself a Nazi then?" The policy points that they typically mention are fairly mainstream points, which can be found in many political parties, so it kinda leaves the impression of a hidden agenda in using the swastika as their symbol of choice.

Similarly, if you believe in workers right, redistribution, equality and what have you - why associate yourself with the bloodstained banner of Communism? Why not do as e.g. the German Greens have done and simply use a new banner that isn't associated with several genocides?

The difference is that the neo nazis are lying.
 
I didn't say communist, I said Marxist. You can be the 1st without the 2nd. But you can't be a Marxist and reject everything Marx said. Sort of like you can't rightly call yourself a Christian if you think Jesus was wrong about everything, or a Platonist while rejecting the ideas of Plato.

That's certainly a hot take, by which 99% of Christians aren't actually Christians ("I have not come to abolish the law..."), and Marxism-Leninism isn't a thing.

Mao was considered a Marxist by himself, by the global communist movement at the time, and by his enemies. Saying "Mao wasn't Marxist" thus comes pretty close to "the Nazis were leftwing, actually".
 
I'm pretty irreligious myself, but my god, why do so many people say that religion is incompatible with science? They do realize that the person who first thought of the Big Bang Theory was a priest from Belgium right?
 
I'm pretty irreligious myself, but my god, why do so many people say that religion is incompatible with science? They do realize that the person who first thought of the Big Bang Theory was a priest from Belgium right?
Religion is not the same as religious people.
Religion and science operate from very different places, if you tried to apply same standards to religion that is required in science, then the believer must conclude that religion is not worth believing, and if you apply religious standards to science, science stops working.
 
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I'm pretty irreligious myself, but my god, why do so many people say that religion is incompatible with science? They do realize that the person who first thought of the Big Bang Theory was a priest from Belgium right?

I think that's mostly due to the XIXth century Catholic Church, that pushed pretty hard against... well, maybe not Science, but at the very least against certain aspects of it - say, Charles Darwin's theories, for instance. I think only a couple of Popes really pushed against it, but that's enough to create a reputation - and you can still see traces of it today.


Sounds like envy to me! I mean, what's not to like between our constant construction sites, our rundown subway or our burning cathe-waait a minute.
 
I'm pretty irreligious myself, but my god, why do so many people say that religion is incompatible with science? They do realize that the person who first thought of the Big Bang Theory was a priest from Belgium right?
Mental compartmentalization can be a wonderful thing.

But more fundamentally, it is about opposing principles. Of course religious people can contribute to science, but religion as a principle is diametrically opposed to science as a principle. Religion fundamentally rests on dogmatic doctrines - you can't have Christianity without accepting, a priori, that Jesus is the Christ, for example. Even in its most reduced forms, religion requires at least some doctrines, or it wouldn't be religion. Religion is faith in something, so it requires that something.

Religion is dogma and "revealed truth" - whereas science is (ideally) all about checking and re-checking and re-re-checking absolutely everything and accepting nothing as fully settled - questioning absolutely everything, taking everything under scrutiny. As such, yes, religion (not religious people) and science (not scientists) are fundamentally incompatible.
 
That's certainly a hot take, by which 99% of Christians aren't actually Christians ("I have not come to abolish the law..."), and Marxism-Leninism isn't a thing.

Mao was considered a Marxist by himself, by the global communist movement at the time, and by his enemies. Saying "Mao wasn't Marxist" thus comes pretty close to "the Nazis were leftwing, actually".
Not remotely. Okay, so a guy writes a book detailing an ideology. If you do what he says in the book and believe what he says in the book, you are following that ideology whether you say you are or not. Conversely if you say you follow that ideology but do and think things that directly contradict that ideology you are not following it.


This is in fact WHY we can say that the Nazis are not leftwing, despite having "workers" and "socialist" in their name.

If you are something just because you say you are, then North Korea is a Democratic Republic.

(And as to the Christians thing, I'll go with something my dad said "if going to church makes you christian, does going to a garage make you a car?")
 
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(And as to the Christians thing, I'll go with something my dad said "if going to church makes you christian, does going to a garage make you a car?")

But that leads to absolutely unworkable definitions. We can't just say "Medieval Europe wasn't actually Christian because the Church palled with the rich people instead of the poor". This would lead to utter confusion as to what we actually mean with our terminology - and as it so happens, communicating, getting your meaning across is the entire point of semantics and terminology!

Christian is what Christians do. And Marxist is what Marxists do. Yes, such movements very much can take up a life on their own. That's just part of historical happenstance. And it is best if our terminology just objectively reflects that instead of trying to make a complicated value judgement in every case anew.

And indeed, the easiest indication of why the Nazis were rightwing is because they saw themselves that way, other rightwing people saw them that way, and their enemies and leftwing people saw them as right wing. Indeed, it is exactly this why "leftwing Nazis" is such a blatant revisionism - because at their own time, this wasn't even a thing. It's a very blatant rewriting of history.
 
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Well, if we're doing religion, here's my controversial historical opinion on religion.
There is no reason to believe there ever existend a historical Jesus, and the main reason people come to a conclusion that such a person existed relies on centuries of pre existing bias and questionable sources.

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Well, that's maybe a bit strongly stated, there are reasons, they just are very flimsy, and not really strong enough to conclude that historical Jesus was a thing as far as i am concerned.
 
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Well, if we're doing religion, here's my controversial historical opinion on religion.
There is no reason to believe there ever existend a historical Jesus, and the main reason people come to a conclusion that such a person existed relies on centuries of pre existing bias and questionable sources.

Actually there have been arguments even from atheists towards the existence of a historical Jesus. Claims to the contrary are the ones that are tenuous, and rest more as a weird atheist ideological project than anything particularly credible.

It's also weird because we know there was a historical Muhammad, but if you're an atheist that doesn't make Islam correct or its beliefs about the nature of the world true. But somehow handwaving all sources as "super duper wrong" about the fact that there existed a religious figure in that time period who was then killed and whose followers eventually called themselves Christians (that's basically all that can be actually confirmed from period sources) is supposed to... prove something about Christianity?
 
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Actually there have been arguments even from atheists towards the existence of a historical Jesus. Claims to the contrary are the ones that are tenuous, and rest more as a weird atheist ideological project than anything particularly credible.

It's also weird because we know there was a historical Muhammad, but if you're an atheist that doesn't make Islam correct or its beliefs about the nature of the world true. But somehow handwaving all sources as "super duper wrong" about the fact that there existed a religious figure in that time period who was then killed and whose followers eventually called themselves Christians (that's basically all that can be actually confirmed from period sources) is supposed to... prove something about Christianity?
Yes, there have been arguments.
Just, not very much evidence.
And not sure what Muhammad has to do with this, they lived centuries apart (assuming Jesus existed).
We do not have any documents about Jesus's alleged execution, gospels were written by sources unknown decades afterwards, Paul never met Jesus (yes, there is the "brother of Christ thing, but then all Christians were brothers/sisters of Christ as far as i am aware), we have no mention of Jesus as existing during his life.
We know of the existence of Christians, just not about the existence of Christ.

I'm not saying there was no historical Jesus, there might have been, i just don't believe there is enough evidence to say that there was.
 
Yes, there have been arguments.
Just, not very much evidence.
And not sure what Muhammad has to do with this, they lived centuries apart (assuming Jesus existed).
We do not have any documents about Jesus's alleged execution, gospels were written by sources unknown decades afterwards, Paul never met Jesus (yes, there is the "brother of Christ thing, but then all Christians were brothers/sisters of Christ as far as i am aware), we have no mention of Jesus as existing during his life.
We know of the existence of Christians, just not about the existence of Christ.

I'm not saying there was no historical Jesus, there might have been, i just don't believe there is enough evidence to say that there was.

Actually there are Jewish historical sources that mention him (skeptically), when they get around to writing stuff up decades later. Heck, there's even an obvious and clumsily Christian-written section added on that does not actually fit into the language of the historian in a way that makes it unlikely that the section that does (and which is pretty skeptical of Jesus in general) was some sort of clever forgery vastly superior to any in human history before the invention of modern linguistics.

The arguments that Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist are tenuous and absurd, starting with the fact that Christians had to work around the fact that the savior was supposed to be born in Bethlehem by making up an obviously false and nonsensical census story... because they had to work with an actual historical figure who was famous for, guess what, not being from Betlehem. :V

It'd be the most nonsensical thing in the world if Christians formed an entire religion, made up their religious founder (as opposed to him being some minor religious figure that got on the wrong side of the authorities)... and then made him up to not actually fit the specifics of the myths and legends about a Messiah that they were trying to shove him into.

My point about Muhammad is that I find this ideological, ahistorical atheist movement for the non-existence of Jesus to be absurd, and more than that, silly, because it doesn't actually connect with a real criticism and rejection of Christianity, which doesn't require carefully ignoring all possible historical evidence because it makes you feel bad, as if the existence of some random cult leader (or one of the many religious rebels of that age, or however you want to label him) named Jesus from around who had a few followers somehow proves the Gospel true.
 
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Actually there are Jewish historical sources that mention him (skeptically), when they get around to writing stuff up decades later. Heck, there's even an obvious and clumsily Christian-written section added on that does not actually fit into the language of the historian in a way that makes it unlikely that the section that does (and which is pretty skeptical of Jesus in general) was some sort of clever forgery vastly superior to any in human history before the invention of modern linguistics.

The arguments that Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist are tenuous and absurd, starting with the fact that Christians had to work around the fact that the savior was supposed to be born in Bethlehem by making up an obviously false and nonsensical census story... because they had to work with an actual historical figure who was famous for, guess what, not being from Betlehem. :V

It'd be the most nonsensical thing in the world if Christians formed an entire religion, made up their religious founder (as opposed to him being some minor religious figure that got on the wrong side of the authorities)... and then made him up to not actually fit the specifics of the myths and legends about a Messiah that they were trying to shove him into.

My point about Muhammad is that I find this ideological, ahistorical atheist movement for the non-existence of Jesus to be absurd, and more than that, silly, because it doesn't actually connect with a real criticism and rejection of Christianity, which doesn't require carefully ignoring all possible historical evidence because it makes you feel bad, as if the existence of some random cult leader (or one of the many religious rebels of that age, or however you want to label him) named Jesus from around who had a few followers somehow proves the Gospel true.
There are historical mentions about the fact that Christians exist, and they believe in this dude called Christ, yes.
That is not the same as historical records of Jesus.

That the later Christians had to fake stories to fit other stories does not make the previous stories true, or even based on truth, especially if the later stories are written years, if not decades, after the earlier ones and now have to fit themselves to the earlier ones.

I am not aware of any mentions of a popular movement lead by a Christ. But i am aware of humans ability to just come up with stuff, especially if you accept spiritual revelation as a valid source of information and have access to alcohol.
 
There are historical mentions about the fact that Christians exist, and they believe in this dude called Christ, yes.
That is not the same as historical records of Jesus.

That the later Christians had to fake stories to fit other stories does not make the previous stories true, or even based on truth, especially if the later stories are written years, if not decades, after the earlier ones and now have to fit themselves to the earlier ones.

I am not aware of any mentions of a popular movement lead by a Christ. But i am aware of humans ability to just come up with stuff, especially if you accept spiritual revelation as a valid source of information and have access to alcohol.
There wouldn't have been much of a movement, he was one of dozens of itinerant jewish preachers at the time. Indeed, some of the theories suggest that he's a composite of several.
 
There wouldn't have been much of a movement, he was one of dozens of itinerant jewish preachers at the time. Indeed, some of the theories suggest that he's a composite of several.
I know of the theory, i used to believe it myself.
But then i started asking ymself, why did i believe it?
And i came to a conclusion that i believed it, because there must have been a historical Jesus, right? There just was no evidence of one, but surely there must have been? And once i concluded that i had not actual reason to believe in historical Jesus beyond having been told that Jesus existed and was the son of god, but when i dropped belief in the son of god part, i had kept the belief in Jesus.
So i went to read on the evidence, and i did not really find any, nothing that could not be just as easily be explained by mystery cult that eventually people started to believe as concrete history.
 
There are literally no contemporary mentions of Hannibal. Most mentions we have of most figures happen years or decades after their deaths.

Josephus a Jewish historian in fact does mention Jesus' existence, and while parts of it are an obvious and clumsy Christian imposition on the text, the fact that others linguistically, using modern day techniques, read as his means that you'd have to have the greatest forger of all time, someone who so perfectly understood his style of writing and language centuries later that he flawlessly replicated it.

...we know what Christian forgeries look like, and it's not that. It's clumsy as shit.

(Plus, there's actually copies of Josephus' work that *don't* have the parts we know are obvious Christian additions from later, which makes it even more clear that it's a legitimate source.)

I know of the theory, i used to believe it myself.
But then i started asking ymself, why did i believe it?
And i came to a conclusion that i believed it, because there must have been a historical Jesus, right? There just was no evidence of one, but surely there must have been? And once i concluded that i had not actual reason to believe in historical Jesus beyond having been told that Jesus existed and was the son of god, but when i dropped belief in the son of god part, i had kept the belief in Jesus.
So i went to read on the evidence, and i did not really find any, nothing that could not be just as easily be explained by mystery cult that eventually people started to believe as concrete history.

Again, that's a silly lie? Atheists, for no apparent actually good reason, have just been pushing a narrative that doesn't fit, even though the true narrative is not particularly friendly to Christian Gospel versions of the Jesus' life. :V

E: Take away the linguistically clumsy impositions by later Christians, and here's what you have from Jospehus, btw:

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of paradoxical deeds [a skeptical term indicating uncertainty if any miracles happened at all], a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. And when Pilate at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."

A guy existed, who supposedly did miracles, and preached Jewish wisdom and converted people, was condemned to die by crucifixtion (which was a very normal punishment), but his followers didn't abandon him and still exist at the time of the writing. No Bethlehem birth, no Messiah-hood, nothing but yet another radical preacher who gets got.

Only by luck and chance his messages happens to resonate and, massively altered beyond recognition, eventually becomes Christianity as we know it during the Roman period.
 
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But more fundamentally, it is about opposing principles. Of course religious people can contribute to science, but religion as a principle is diametrically opposed to science as a principle. Religion fundamentally rests on dogmatic doctrines - you can't have Christianity without accepting, a priori, that Jesus is the Christ, for example. Even in its most reduced forms, religion requires at least some doctrines, or it wouldn't be religion. Religion is faith in something, so it requires that something.

Religion is dogma and "revealed truth" - whereas science is (ideally) all about checking and re-checking and re-re-checking absolutely everything and accepting nothing as fully settled - questioning absolutely everything, taking everything under scrutiny. As such, yes, religion (not religious people) and science (not scientists) are fundamentally incompatible.
Not all religions are Christianity, or even anything much like Christianity. If you mean Christianity, just say Christianity. If you don't just mean Christianity, maybe don't describe attributes of Christianity as though they apply to every other religion just as well. Because the things you list as being fundamental to religion? Aren't, unless your use of "dogma" goes against every definition I am aware of.

EDIT: This is honestly one of the most frustrating things about Christianity, the way it insists all religion functions like it does. That and how people raised in Christian environments so often don't rethink that framework of how religion and belief work, regardless of what their own beliefs are.
 
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