I think New Zealand has a pretty damn good model. Sweden too, although I admit that's more social democratic. The Austrians, from what I gather, manage to do things pretty well too.
The Austrians??? The country where the current ruling party formed a governing coalition with the totally-not-fascists? Like Austria is pretty right-wing.

Not an expert on New Zealand so others are probably better qualified to answer this one.

And in Sweden the far right is like the second biggest party?

And we are not even talking about how all of these countries afford their domestic situation by economic exploitation...
 
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For the sake of holy God, the purpose of this thread is not to relitigate the arguments between socialism and capitalism, but to discuss one's controversial historical opinions. While those can overlap, that is certainly not meant to be an excuse for discussions that nakedly have nothing to do with history anymore. This thread has been locked until the Staff can sort it out.
 
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it is currently 3 in the morning
I was looking through this old thread and wondering why it had been closed when it had so many funny times and I remembered enjoying it greatly. Imagine my displeasure, then, when I turned the final page on the thread and discovered the wretched offender who had closed it was me. Suffice to say, it is no surprise when I say that the Staff never sorted out the thread, and I have no plans of putting them to the business, so I will simply forget everything that has happened the last 10 pages, because it happened about a year ago, and open it again. However, I will be opening it with a few caveats and a new thread policy:

1. This is the Controversial Historical Opinions You Have thread. It is not a space for conspiracy theories, it is not a space for saying random insane opinions about history. Posts don't have to be one hundred percent serious, nor do they have to be fully cited APA-style with a link to your upcoming revisionist dissertation on why the Kingdom of France did not exist, but you should be expected to provide sources if asked for them, and you should be prepared and ready to argue your point. Historical opinions must be grounded in history—even controversial ones.

2. What got the thread locked—by yours truly—last time was a socialism versus capitalism argument. Both of these are important ideological forces historically, and as a result, I am not going to ban them in any way, shape or form. However, they should be related to history. Bringing up, say, Sweden's current far right or a similar situation does not go, unless one wishes to discuss the history of that far right. We aren't operating on a strict r/askhistorians-style 20-years rule, but arguments must be grounded in history. Arguments about socialism and capitalism cannot be arguments over the relative merits and flaws of these two in a vacuum, nor can they rely on current governments and parties.

These two principles will be established as a new thread policy for our thread revived. The thread has now been reopened.
 
I think if J Edgar Hoover had been put in an institution for his paranoid megalomania instead of achieving power, the entire damn Cold War would not have happened. He was the one who convinced Truman that Stalin (ironically another paranoid megalomaniac) was hellbent on world domination and that there was no possibility of rapprochement. This is the direct cause of all the evils the USA supported throughout the Cold War, as they believed that since armed conflict was 'inevitable', anything and everything was permitted as it was a matter of their survival. This of course stoked the paranoia of the USSR to the point they reciprocated and that fed into the USA and back and forth. All a fucking shitshow because a nutjob who was convinced that every single damn person who wanted any kind of change was a communist sleeper agent (Hoover actually thought that about MLK).
 
The Kingdom of France has never existed and has been a conspiracy propped up by the the decadent Athenians and the Caliphate of Mars. Any "French" users on this site are actually bots run by underpaid lizard people interns.

Source: Trust me bro.
 
I don't think Hoover's historical reputation is all that great, but there's usually some, "At least he was sharp and canny" or something, but it feels more like a Beria situation. What massive successes at detecting and stopping actual major threats were there? I can't really think of that many compared to "He does Secret Police shit on vulnerable dissidents yet again" and "Somehow actual communist agents get by fine or only get found out years later."
 
There is a zero, and I truly mean zero, percent chance that this won't result in constant capitalism v socialism arguments and get locked indefinitely later.
 
The non-assassination of Andrew Johnson was more damaging to the long term health of the USA than assassination of Lincoln.
 
I don't think Hoover's historical reputation is all that great, but there's usually some, "At least he was sharp and canny" or something, but it feels more like a Beria situation. What massive successes at detecting and stopping actual major threats were there? I can't really think of that many compared to "He does Secret Police shit on vulnerable dissidents yet again" and "Somehow actual communist agents get by fine or only get found out years later."
I strongly recommend Enemies by Tim Weiner. Also Legacy of Ashes for the CIA. Hoover just... repeatedly violated the Constitution. When he was ordered to stop? He just stopped telling the President and Congress. It was constant and unending, and included fucking assassinations to a scale we will never know, because after his death his subordinates destroyed a lot of his personal records that he kept to himself alone as a matter of paranoia.
 
Say what you want about COINTELPRO, but they effectively kill off the 3rd Klan as a relevant political force
 
I think if J Edgar Hoover had been put in an institution for his paranoid megalomania instead of achieving power, the entire damn Cold War would not have happened. He was the one who convinced Truman that Stalin (ironically another paranoid megalomaniac) was hellbent on world domination and that there was no possibility of rapprochement. This is the direct cause of all the evils the USA supported throughout the Cold War, as they believed that since armed conflict was 'inevitable', anything and everything was permitted as it was a matter of their survival. This of course stoked the paranoia of the USSR to the point they reciprocated and that fed into the USA and back and forth. All a fucking shitshow because a nutjob who was convinced that every single damn person who wanted any kind of change was a communist sleeper agent (Hoover actually thought that about MLK).
That was Paul Nitze actually. The foundation of the Truman doctrine was NSC-68 and he added the bits about how the Soviets intended to take over the world.
 
That was Paul Nitze actually. The foundation of the Truman doctrine was NSC-68 and he added the bits about how the Soviets intended to take over the world.
No, I'm talking about Truman's first briefing on Stalin before Potsdam, which Hoover carried out. Apparently Roosevelt had kept him in the dark on this and he needed someone to give him the details. He got Hoover.
 
I think if J Edgar Hoover had been put in an institution for his paranoid megalomania instead of achieving power, the entire damn Cold War would not have happened. He was the one who convinced Truman that Stalin (ironically another paranoid megalomaniac) was hellbent on world domination and that there was no possibility of rapprochement. This is the direct cause of all the evils the USA supported throughout the Cold War, as they believed that since armed conflict was 'inevitable', anything and everything was permitted as it was a matter of their survival. This of course stoked the paranoia of the USSR to the point they reciprocated and that fed into the USA and back and forth. All a fucking shitshow because a nutjob who was convinced that every single damn person who wanted any kind of change was a communist sleeper agent (Hoover actually thought that about MLK).

IMO this really underestimates the structural factors pushing both sides towards confrontation post-WW2. I see a Cold War of some form as basically inevitable when you look at the structure of the world after 1945.
 
The nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were completely unnecessary and had no effect on Japan's willingness to surrender at all.
 
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IMO this really underestimates the structural factors pushing both sides towards confrontation post-WW2. I see a Cold War of some form as basically inevitable when you look at the structure of the world after 1945.

Though it didn't exactly help that Harry Truman was like seemingly randomly picked out of a hat out of a couple handfuls of other true blue Democratic operators and like semi-tricked into accepting the position as veep in FDR's last nomination and election in '44. Until then he had just been but the humble senator from Pendergast and a simple machine man in the Missouri New-Dealer coalition, until a collection of various like DNC dudes got together in like a literal smoky back room to hash out one of the greatest party self-owns and ratfuckings of modern American history, delicately arranging the removal and replacement of Henry Wallace with a good Democratic soldier and managing the convention to freeze the natural momentum of support for renominating Wallace and push through the relative nobody Truman. Harry at his heart was never more than that classic political archetype of an affectionally corrupt southern populist who gets fighting mad about Wall Street and also any personal slights against himself, suddenly thrust into being the most powerful man in America.
 
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So here's a few of my opinions:

1. Simon Bolivar is only as famous as he is due to circumstances beyond his control and while he did do many admirable things he could have (and perhaps should have) been replaced by many people that were frankly better in many areas or were his equivalent.

2. Napoleon could have won his 1815 campaign and gotten a peace where he abdicated to his child and there was a regency, but he didn't appreciate the talents of many of his commanders/military staff.

3. One of the main reasons why Latin America is behind the US economically is that we did pay our debts, if the US had had to pay its debt in full to France they would have been in a far worse position historically and this has been ignored heavily in studies focused on the reasons of Latin America's poverty.
 
IMO this really underestimates the structural factors pushing both sides towards confrontation post-WW2. I see a Cold War of some form as basically inevitable when you look at the structure of the world after 1945.
Some form of long-term political conflict? Sure. But the insanity of the Cold War, where everyone committed atrocities and backed dictators and other things because they were all convinced that an existential war was on the horizon and that anything was justified? I disagree. Hell, if you take the school of thought that Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't about the Japanese but rather demonstrating might to the Soviets? The nuclear arms race, if it happened at all, would have been slower.
 
I think Hebert Hoover was a very competent community organizer and people gave him a lot of shit for the great depression, which really wasn't his fault. He actually managed to, using private meetings, convince banks and large companies to change the way they handled things in an effort to soften the blow of the great depression in the face of a stubborn and uncaring congress.

I think that Roosevelt took a lot of credit for policies originally proposed or enacted by Hoover. I don't think Hoover would have been a better wartime president than Roosevelt, honestly Hoover was very strongly anti-war and would have likely kept the US out of WW2, Roosevelt was just looking for an excuse to go to war.

But I think that Hebert Hoover gets a lot of undeserved shit, especially compared to Taft and Coolidge who both skate by on being corrupt assholes. (No relation to J Edgar.)
 
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Some form of long-term political conflict? Sure. But the insanity of the Cold War, where everyone committed atrocities and backed dictators and other things because they were all convinced that an existential war was on the horizon and that anything was justified? I disagree. Hell, if you take the school of thought that Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't about the Japanese but rather demonstrating might to the Soviets? The nuclear arms race, if it happened at all, would have been slower.

The Cold War went for 50 years, with atrocities throughout the entire period, and I don't think you can attribute that to path dependency around Truman and Stalin.

I think the Cold War was as zero-sum struggle for power with massive, perhaps even existential, stakes for both sides. This was baked into the structure of the conflict from the end of WW2 by the diverging political and economic systems of the US and the Soviet Union in an increasingly interconnected yet insecure world. Even if outright war was avoided, the stakes were probably as high in the Cold War for both parties as they were for the belligerents in WW1 and WW2, and neither side could "afford" to lose. That the Cold War ended with the complete defeat of the Soviet Union and the full extension of US hegemony and capitalism worldwide suggests that both sides were right to see the Cold War in these terms. Throw in that atrocities are the historical norm and a feature of modernity, not an aberration, and I don't think it's hard to see the evils done during the Cold War as very much structurally determined even if their particularities were contingent.

On the specific subject of using nuclear weapons in Japan, my controversial opinion is that the deployment of nuclear weapons there was mostly decided with the same calculus and methods as the general firebombing of Japan. At the time, deploying nukes wasn't considered crossing some new threshold but only an extension of an ongoing campaign of massive bombing with a new technology. It was only later that the nuclear taboo developed as people realized nuclear weapon's destructive potential and nukes acquired their unique distinction as strategic weapons.
 
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The Cold War went for 50 years, with atrocities throughout the entire period, and I don't think you can attribute that to path dependency around Truman and Stalin.

I think the Cold War was as zero-sum struggle for power with massive, perhaps even existential, stakes for both sides. This was baked into the structure of the conflict from the end of WW2 by the diverging political and economic systems of the US and the Soviet Union in an increasingly interconnected yet insecure world. Even if outright war was avoided, the stakes were probably as high in the Cold War for both parties as they were for the belligerents in WW1 and WW2, and neither side could "afford" to lose. That the Cold War ended with the complete defeat of the Soviet Union and the full extension of US hegemony and capitalism worldwide suggests that both sides were right to see the Cold War in these terms.
This is incorrect. The Soviet Union was not 'defeated'. It fell apart. Absolutely no action the USA took made this happen; it was merely an inevitable end result of the USSR trying to keep up with the USA in production and military strength when it just did not have the capacity to do so, in both infrastructure and resources. This attempt to 'keep up' was predicated upon the way Truman reacted to what Hoover convinced him Stalin was intent upon. Without that first initial reaction of completely existential hostility, the entire course of events is thrown into the air. We cannot make any predictions on what might have come about. Would Stalin have self-destructed? Possible. Without an existential threat to focus the nation on his insane paranoia and megalomania could have engendered actual meaningful violent resistance to him. He might also have survived until he died in our timeline.
 
Some form of long-term political conflict? Sure. But the insanity of the Cold War, where everyone committed atrocities and backed dictators and other things because they were all convinced that an existential war was on the horizon and that anything was justified? I disagree. Hell, if you take the school of thought that Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't about the Japanese but rather demonstrating might to the Soviets? The nuclear arms race, if it happened at all, would have been slower.
If you're starting at the end of WWII, I don't think you can avoid the Cold War unless both the US and USSR both have a major shakeup in their leadership.

I don't think you can avoid the Cold War at all with Stalin at the helm of the Soviet Union, because I can't see Stalin not setting up the Eastern Bloc as puppet states, and I think that's what made the Cold War inevitable. It committed the Soviets to a massive military presence in Eastern Europe, because the new governments Stalin set up couldn't survive without the threat of military intervention from Moscow. It also permanently alienated the US by confirming its latent paranoia about the USSR. It was an escalation and the dynamic it set up made complete de-escalation essentially impossible. If the Soviet Union winds up with a leader who doesn't do that... well, you probably still get the Cold War, but at least there's a chance.

For the US... I'm less sure what exactly would need to change, partly because the years immediately after WWII are an era of American history I don't know as much about. The US right would never tolerate the USSR's existence willingly, but I suppose it's possible that with a less threatening USSR their messaging fails to get enough traction and American politics ends up substantially more leftist. If New Deal politics had stayed alive longer and stronger, then maybe diplomacy with the Soviet Union would be less fraught? Hard to say.

The problem is that neither Hoover nor Stalin existed in a vacuum. The US right and the plutocrats backing them were never going to be okay with even the idea of atheist communism, Soviet militarization and autocracy was always going to make diplomacy difficult, and decolonization was always going to be a minefield for everyone.



On the subject of the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I strongly recommend this video by Shaun. Fair warning, it is two hours long, because it goes into the details of the events and people involved.

My opinion, which is substantially informed by that video, is that the bombings were not militarily necessary, but American leadership probably believed that they were politically necessary. I also think it's worth remembering that even after Trinity, nobody fully grasped the enormity of what they were unleashing. All that said, it was definitely not necessary for the bombs to be dropped deliberately on cities. Military targets were available.

The bombings did not by themselves make Japan surrender, but they were one of the reasons for Japan's surrender. The sharp shock of the bombings in addition to the Soviet invasion of Manchuria essentially served as one enormous wake-up slap. It also provided a convenient pretext for surrender. Without the bombs (although again, those bombs do not have to be dropped on civilians), I think it's very possible the Japanese government would have managed to talk itself back onto the ledge again, even after the Soviet declaration of war.
 
On the specific subject of using nuclear weapons in Japan, my controversial opinion is that the deployment of nuclear weapons there was mostly decided with the same calculus and methods as the general firebombing of Japan. At the time, deploying nukes wasn't considered crossing some new threshold but only an extension of an ongoing campaign of massive bombing with a new technology.

This, ah…isn't true.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't picked as military targets, or even as civilian targets for a fear campaign. If you wanted that, there were better cities for both options. No, military notes and planning from the War Department show that they were looking for cities surrounded by mountains that would reflect heat and light to create larger, more impressive explosions. Cities which had layouts and building materials that would be most easily destroyed and produce the most startling effects. The specific effort and research put in was towards finding a location which, aesthetically, would look the most destroyed — which would emphasize the power and might of this newest weapon.

Japanese leadership had already communicated willingness to surrender on the condition that the emperor was kept. In fact, the sole reason Japan hadn't surrendered yet was the wavering hope that the Russians might save them, might act as a counterbalance, might stop them from being devoured as they had stopped Germany. They could play the giants off of each other, or if worst came to worst, surrender unequivocally to the comparatively weaker foe.

It was a frail hope, but coincidentally, it was also what the Americans were worried about. Not only did they not want another Germany, it was becoming clear that Russia was rising to become their only peer on the world stage. Japan divided in half was not what they wanted — but showing weakness by accepting a conditional surrender or 'needing' Russia to help them win was not in their interest either. And of course, as has been mentioned here, Truman was already stepping into Cold War brain about Russia's capabilities.

Enter: the atom bomb.

The bombings on Hiroshima and Nagasaki can be seen through a certain analysis less as the final act of the Second World War and more as the first act of the Cold War. An aesthetically focused use of a technologically impressive weapon against an already defeated foe not to establish victory but to project it, to declaim it, to show dominance and strength and awe the Bear back into it's cave.

It worked. The Russians hesitated. Hopeless, the Japanese surrendered unconditionally — only to be allowed to keep their emperor anyway.
 
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