I mean, I don't know what else you could call it.

"Accidental famine caused and exacerbated by a series of cascading failures in Soviet bureaucratic structures and government policy" generally fits the bill. The "Holodomor was a deliberate plot by Stalin to kill off Ukrainian nationalism" argument doesn't really hold water to my knowledge, since A: the majority of deaths were localized in Russian-speaking areas in Eastern Ukraine and the Kazakh SSR, and B: the declassified Soviet archives that historians got access to after the fall of the USSR backs up the former claim more than the latter.

Like, if you want to talk about state-sanctioned ethnic killings committed by the Soviet Union, the Holdomor is a really bad example to use. It'd be like claiming that the US government committed genocide against Midwesterners because of the Dust Bowl. You'd be better off citing the something like the Virgin Lands Campaign or the Doctor's Plot, and even then you'd want to vet your sources pretty carefully.
I don't think anyone thinks that second point.

Hell *I* don't think that second point.

So, how many incidents of state-sanctioned ethnic killings committed by liberal governments have you cited as examples for your arguments so far? :V
 
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And the material conditions of different so called totalitarian regimes can be extremely divergent.

I'd actually disagree with the 'extremely.'

If you picked a random first-generation totalitarian and looked at the conditions before they came to power, I'm pretty sure you would always find economic devastation, political instability spilling into political violence, and weakened institutions seen as ineffective by the majority of the population. Are those not material conditions?
 
Rule 4: Don’t Be Disruptive
I don't think anyone thinks that second point.

Hell *I* don't think that second point.
I never see you talking about how manifest destiny was an actual genocidal campaign that inspired GeneralplanOst

I never see you bemoaning the Bengal Famine as evidence that Churchill was just as bad as Hitler and Stalin (and I will enjoy seeing you and others scramble to defend him as totally different somehow).

I never see you use the potato famine or literally any other famine that was caused or worsened by capitalist systems and regimes while there was more than enough food to go around.Something which continues to this day; if you care so much about the Holodmoor then why aren't concerned about the fact a dozen recreations of it happen on a yearly basis world wide.

I never see you condemning how France pretty much uses West Africa as colonies in all but name with all the shittery that implies , same for the US and literally every place it meddles in; like Chile, Indonesia or Russia which causes deaths and suffering on par with any of Stalinism's horrors; and yet not once do I see it being used to prove that liberal capitalism is just as bad as the Nazis.

Hell forget history, how about all the deaths and suffering daily that are caused by the inherent need of your ideology for there to be a constant supply of desperate starving people willing to do anything to not die homeless on the street or all those deaths from completely preventable curable diseases that happen because some CEO wants another zero to his already massive bank account? That's not even a full list mind you

Frankly I can only conclude the only reason you even care about USSR or any eastern block atrocity victims is because they suffered at the hands self proclaimed communists and had they been economically liberal no one would raise a fuss
 
Going "But what about this?" Is not a valid way or argumentation, if you are going to argue that the Holodomor was not a planned genocide then argue that but going "But this other things have also happened" Is A) not valid as things happening doesn't mean anything in context of the argument and B) pointless as unless you are using them as examples this is not a valid argument.

Also going "I will see how you scramble to justify the Bengal Famine as good" Is weird since no one in this thread has tried to argue that and usually Churchill and the British Empire are seen as horrible things or a bastard of a man respectively, so you are strawmanning the other side with arguments that they have not done, don't argue in a dishonest manner.
 
Going "But what about this?" Is not a valid way or argumentation, if you are going to argue that the Holodomor was not a planned genocide then argue that but going "But this other things have also happened" Is A) not valid as things happening doesn't mean anything in context of the argument and B) pointless as unless you are using them as examples this is not a valid argument.

Also going "I will see how you scramble to justify the Bengal Famine as good" Is weird since no one in this thread has tried to argue that and usually Churchill and the British Empire are seen as horrible things or a bastard of a man respectively, so you are strawmanning the other side with arguments that they have not done, don't argue in a dishonest manner.
1. certainly no one has a problem with it when centrists try to use that as a way to not so subtly equate leftists to Nazis, I am only giving as good as I got.

2.Nah, I have seen people here on this thread and elsewhere justify it as being necessary for the war effort and ultimately justified because it helped beat back the Nazis or something. Also my point was that despite having a comparable kill count no one ever compares Churchill to Hitler and Stalin despite him being in the same league in terms of being a racist murderous asshole and how it in no way reflects on liberal capitalism and exposes it as a failed murderous ideology that denies reality
 
It's definitely not a materialist position, so it can't be a Marxist one.
"One party states have similar power relations and thus end up similar whatever their ostensible ideology is" is a materialist hypothesis.

Whatever the socio-economic differences between the 1910s Russian Empire and 1930s Germany, a significant similarity between fascism and Leninist/Maoist type communism is that the masses have little political voice and thus can exert only the crudest leverage on government policy (threat of passive or violent resistance). This is a similarity also shared by other forms of bad government such as feudalism. This is a material similarity.

Eh, I definitely agree with that it's highly mythicalized, but the Shire parts of The Fellowship make it quite clear that class differences exist in the Shire, that there more reputable families and less reputable ones, that there are rich people (like Bilbo and Frodo) and that there are even people in relative poverty (but of course, since it's the Shire, they don't actually go hungry). Sure, the social inequalities are somewhat mitigated by Hobbit customs, but they are definitely part and parcel of the entire social makeup. I think that all is sort of ancapish, just not the stereotypical image of ancaps we have where everything is corporate; but it pretty much is rich people being rich without any pesky state interference and being looked up as the reputable people in society, while that all is presented as an ideal setting.
Are the rich hobbits actually capitalists, or are they more like rich feudal land-owners or influential big men?

I haven't read LOTR, but I'm guessing that "idealized rural utopia as imagined by a conservative British guy in the middle twentieth century who was modelling it on what he saw as the best of traditional English society" would look more... anarcho-feudalist, if that makes sense? Like, you'd have moderate economic inequality because there'd be some families who have more and better land and/or were more diligent and clever in improving it, and these rich families would have prestige and powerful offices to go with their wealth, but these rich families would also have noblesse oblige and share their wealth with their less fortunate brethren (and their prestige and powerful offices would be tied to this noblesse oblige), and the whole system would be held together by a thick network of a mix of egalitarian and hierarchical mutually beneficial relationships with mutual obligations, and the whole system would work to moderate socio-economic inequality and create a sort of "every family owns its own at least moderately successful farm" utopia. Such a society might have some proto-capitalist features (e.g. a significant petite bourgeoisie of the "family that is prosperous from owning their own water mill or shop or brewery, the employees are mostly or entirely family members" sort), but its basic structure would be feudal; land ownership as the primary form of wealth, most people are farmers, most wealth is held by families instead of by individuals, small or nonexistent proletariat, little in the way of a labor market, certainly nothing like a stock market, etc.. This fits with the idea a paleoconservative utopia; that sort of paleoconservative perspective would frown on features of a truly capitalist society like a large landless laborer class and a large and well-developed labor market, as those truly capitalist institutions would tend to promote social atomization, destabilize traditional community and family relationships, increase socio-economic inequality, and increase class tensions.
 
I never see you talking about how manifest destiny was an actual genocidal campaign that inspired GeneralplanOst

I never see you bemoaning the Bengal Famine as evidence that Churchill was just as bad as Hitler and Stalin (and I will enjoy seeing you and others scramble to defend him as totally different somehow).

I never see you use the potato famine or literally any other famine that was caused or worsened by capitalist systems and regimes while there was more than enough food to go around.Something which continues to this day; if you care so much about the Holodmoor then why aren't concerned about the fact a dozen recreations of it happen on a yearly basis world wide.

I never see you condemning how France pretty much uses West Africa as colonies in all but name with all the shittery that implies , same for the US and literally every place it meddles in; like Chile, Indonesia or Russia which causes deaths and suffering on par with any of Stalinism's horrors; and yet not once do I see it being used to prove that liberal capitalism is just as bad as the Nazis.

Hell forget history, how about all the deaths and suffering daily that are caused by the inherent need of your ideology for there to be a constant supply of desperate starving people willing to do anything to not die homeless on the street or all those deaths from completely preventable curable diseases that happen because some CEO wants another zero to his already massive bank account? That's not even a full list mind you

Frankly I can only conclude the only reason you even care about USSR or any eastern block atrocity victims is because they suffered at the hands self proclaimed communists and had they been economically liberal no one would raise a fuss

Whenever they come up I do condemn them. The fact that you haven't seen me condemn them doesn't mean I don't. You don't know me. You don't know what I believe. You have turned what was a debate about policy (albeit I admit a heated one) into a personal attack on me.

I'm trying hard in this thread not to resort to attacks on the character and beliefs of the person or people I'm speaking too, and I'd really appreciate it if you did the same, and not call me a defender of murder, famine and poverty. I call myself a liberal because I am a defender of political and social liberty, *not* because of attitude towards property or ownership.

@veteranMortal, that isn't and in fact, wasn't my attitude towards economic shock therapy.
 
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Okay, here goes. Firstly, again my point is that rather than adapting their methods to the masses of the peasantry or adapting in any way to the different international situation, the Leninist system dug in and radicalised into Stalinism. You talk a lot about the material conditions facing the Soviet Union, but that just makes the whole Soviet project seem even worse to me. Like trying to force a square peg into a round hole. It's like if the 18th Century Tories responded to industrialisation in Britain by burning factories and killing industralists.

Secondly, I'm not using genocide for rhetorical emphasis. I'm referring to the Holodomor. Which was a genocide, at least in part motived by Greater Russian chauvinism on Stalin's part. I mean yeah for sure, ethnic cleansing violence wasn't intrinsic to the Soviet system like they were to the Nazi one, nor was genocide a unique thing (sadly). But the original argument was that the Soviets were different from the Nazis because they didn't commit genocide, not that the Soviets were different because they didn't have genocide as an ideological foundation.

Thirdly, I'm not saying industrialisation was bad or unneeded. But the specific form it took was, beyond the obvious moral cost, filled with practical errors. And I really don't think that the capitalist world was going to invade again. I mean, they did during the Civil War, sure, but by the late 20s and early 30s the general foreign policy of the western powers was one of normalisation with regard to diplomatic relations, not continued hostility.

People can come up with different solutions to the same material conditions. I think we can agree Stalin's was wrong. But when you get down to the level of the individual leadership, it does in fact come down to what's in their brain. The material analysis can tell you a lot about the structure below it, but in the end it's still humans acting upon it. The soviets had alternative proposals to Stalin's solution, and he didn't really win on the strength of that platform. In fact he rose to power largely because the two ideological contenders didn't see him as a threat. A Bukharin solution of gradual industrialization and voluntary phase out of the peasant based economy would have been a possibility.

As for not being attacked... The Nazi did happen, and they were Europe's reaction to the problem. They also got quite a bit of leeway as a bulwark against the red menace until people realized they would face consequences for enabling them.

I'd actually disagree with the 'extremely.'

If you picked a random first-generation totalitarian and looked at the conditions before they came to power, I'm pretty sure you would always find economic devastation, political instability spilling into political violence, and weakened institutions seen as ineffective by the majority of the population. Are those not material conditions?

I already talked about the kind of differences. Yes, it usually take a crisis. But there's more to material conditions than "it was a crisis".

"One party states have similar power relations and thus end up similar whatever their ostensible ideology is" is a materialist hypothesis.

Whatever the socio-economic differences between the 1910s Russian Empire and 1930s Germany, a significant similarity between fascism and Leninist/Maoist type communism is that the masses have little political voice and thus can exert only the crudest leverage on government policy (threat of passive or violent resistance). This is a similarity also shared by other forms of bad government such as feudalism. This is a material similarity.

It's a similarity, but it's also one so broad it doesn't tell you much. Yeah, sure, a bunch of different governments with divergent roots happen to not give most of the population a method of input into government, direct or indirect. But that's most systems through history so that's not really saying anything. Especially if you care about how it built itself.
 
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1. certainly no one has a problem with it when centrists try to use that as a way to not so subtly equate leftists to Nazis, I am only giving as good as I got.

2.Nah, I have seen people here on this thread and elsewhere justify it as being necessary for the war effort and ultimately justified because it helped beat back the Nazis or something. Also my point was that despite having a comparable kill count no one ever compares Churchill to Hitler and Stalin despite him being in the same league in terms of being a racist murderous asshole and how it in no way reflects on liberal capitalism and exposes it as a failed murderous ideology that denies reality
1. I do have a problem with it as it is a bad arguing strategy, I don't care that someone argued wrongly with you, whattaboutism is a bad arguing strategy and that someone else argued with that means that they argued in bad faith not that's it's a valid way of arguing.

2. I have not seen in the last 50+ pages of this thread someone say "Well the Bengal famine was crucial to winning WW2" so again you are making a straw man with which you are validating your arguments. Churchill is usually not compared to Stalin and Hitler because A) historiography sees him usually well and B) Many of the academia are the sons of the people who idolise him as the strong "Bulldog" that fought and killed Nazis, this people have continued the myth but usually academia done by people more removed from that generation are highly critical of him and call out his atrocities, in pop culture this will take a lot more time as he might probably be more lionised due to the fact that more people in the US and Europe have apparently started to believe that Nazism, facism and racism are rad and it should be given another try, in time he will probably be seen worse and worse but it's impossible to really tell.
 
Recognizing there is a massive difference in the aims of a state that wanted to genocide all of Eastern Europe (and beyond) vs one that didn't is not idealism.

I get you're trying to use leftist concepts as a gotcha against leftists but it's not actually convincing. Nazi Germany had substantively different goals than the Soviets, if you want to deny it you'll be arguing against reality.
Im not saying distinction is irrelevant but it's definitely more of an idealist one than not (and to be clear I don't think idealism is a bad framework either).

The gulf in the scale between Generalplan Ost and the atrocities the Soviets and the west got up to is enormous, but when you break it down the motivation is consistently 'These people, who we regard as inferior, are standing in the way of something we want and we have the means to solve the problem permanently'.

And for the record it's not a gotcha, I had the exact same opinion as you did on the matter but I've started to reconsider it in the last couple years.
A truly materialist historical analysis would conclude that liberal capitalism kills and tortures more people than either of these ideologies on a yearly basis from the direct slavery and dictatorship backing alone. Let alone going through it's entire history and the indirect effects.
Okay but even if we take this as true at face value the dedicated materialist would still notice that self identified socialist regimes also seem to consistently produce ethnic cleansing, massacres and other assorted artificially induced mass deaths, often with the intent of taking resources or crushing dissent.

What's to be gained with excusing and equivocating away this behaviour?
 
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The gulf in the scale between Generalplan Ost and the atrocities the Soviets and the west got up to is enormous, but when you break it down the motivation is consistently 'These people, who we regard as inferior, are standing in the way of something we want and we have the means to solve the problem permanently'.

That's just incorrect though? In the Nazi's case, eliminating the "inferior" is the end goal, not a mean to an end.

Now if you want to draw equivalence between the soviets' abuses and western imperialist ones, be my guest, that's a different proposal without the Nazis in it.
 
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It's a similarity, but it's also one so broad it doesn't tell you much. Yeah, sure, a bunch of different governments with divergent roots happen to not give most of the population a method of input into government, direct or indirect. But that's most systems through history so that's not really saying anything. Especially if you care about how it built itself.
It's a strong argument for the value of political democracy, and by extension perhaps the strongest pro-liberalism argument.
 
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That's just incorrect though? In the Nazi's case, eliminating the "inferior" is the end goal, not a mean to an end.

Now if you want to draw equivalence between the soviets' abuses and western imperialist ones, be my guest, that's a different proposal without the Nazis in it.

States that commit genocide out of either negligence or in pursuit of state goals are sadly commonplace throughout human history but states that commit genocide as a foundational value, such as Nazi Germany, are much rarer.
 
It's a strong argument for the value of political democracy, and by extension perhaps the strongest pro-liberalism argument.

That's making the incredible assumption that liberalism is the only democratic system possible.

I don't see how that extremely stretched similarity makes any argument for you, anyway, beyond "vague undefined authoritarian bad". Which, sure, bad. But also undefined.
 
That's just incorrect though? In the Nazi's case, eliminating the "inferior" is the end goal, not a mean to an end.

Now if you want to draw equivalence between the soviets' abuses and western imperialist ones, be my guest, that's a different proposal without the Nazis in it.
It was certainly an end goal but Lebensraum was a pretty explicit motivation behind Generalplan Ost.

And there aren't many genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries that weren't at least partially motivated by some kind of racial animosity towards the victims either.
Accidental famine caused and exacerbated by a series of cascading failures in Soviet bureaucratic structures and government policy" generally fits the bill.
When you do something to a particular ethnic group that causes them to die en masse and you don't stop when you realize what's happening, it's considered a genocide. Full stop, end of story.
 
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It's a strong argument for the value of political democracy, and by extension perhaps the strongest pro-liberalism argument.

Liberalism is when I like the government and the more I like the government, the liberalismier it is.

This isn't what liberalism means, and liberalism, in fact, is not terribly democratic. People with sufficient capital have more political influence than the average voter can dream of; it doesn't matter what the public wants, it doesn't matter how they vote, certain things in a liberal state are sacrosanct, and they aren't the things that the average person considers sacrosanct; when given the choice between fair and democratic elections and "but i want number to go up" the answer reached by a liberal state is never "well i suppose number will have to go down"
 
Liberalism is when I like the government and the more I like the government, the liberalismier it is.

This isn't what liberalism means, and liberalism, in fact, is not terribly democratic. People with sufficient capital have more political influence than the average voter can dream of; it doesn't matter what the public wants, it doesn't matter how they vote, certain things in a liberal state are sacrosanct, and they aren't the things that the average person considers sacrosanct; when given the choice between fair and democratic elections and "but i want number to go up" the answer reached by a liberal state is never "well i suppose number will have to go down"

You a) seem to be confusing unregulated capitalism with liberalism, b) seem to be ignoring new liberalism and all those brands of liberalism that acknowledge inequality and want to fix it and c) substituting economic neoliberalism for political liberalism.

You can be a firm political liberal without really having a strong commitment to any one brand of economic thinking or another.
 
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You a) seem to be confusing unregulated capitalism with liberalism, b) seem to be ignoring new liberalism and all those brands of liberalism that acknowledge inequality and want to fix it and c) substituting economic neoliberalism for liberalism.
Why are all liberal systems so unequal then and end up with neoliberal economic systems? Like where is that fabled socially liberal wonderland?

As a Leftist I can point to Catalonia and say yeah it works if fascists don't kill you. Where is the social-liberal model state?
 
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Liberalism is when I like the government and the more I like the government, the liberalismier it is.

This isn't what liberalism means, and liberalism, in fact, is not terribly democratic. People with sufficient capital have more political influence than the average voter can dream of; it doesn't matter what the public wants, it doesn't matter how they vote, certain things in a liberal state are sacrosanct, and they aren't the things that the average person considers sacrosanct; when given the choice between fair and democratic elections and "but i want number to go up" the answer reached by a liberal state is never "well i suppose number will have to go down"
But liberal countries are undeniably democratic, even if flawed to a greater or lesser extent.

I'm not going to get into the reeds here but the argument isn't that liberalism is the best possible democracy, just that the pattern of brutality across totalitarian regimes is an argument for democratic systems, of which liberal democracy is one.

It's an argument for anarchism or whatever too, but those systems have their own issues imo.
 
You a) seem to be confusing unregulated capitalism with liberalism, b) seem to be ignoring new liberalism and all those brands of liberalism that acknowledge inequality and want to fix it and c) substituting economic neoliberalism for liberalism.

The protection of private property as something which cannot be meaningfully infringed is the core conceit of liberalism. There cannot be a liberal state which does not protect private property, and as such, the accumulation of capital into fewer and fewer hands is trivially inevitable - having more capital makes it easier to acquire capital, which makes it easier to acquire capital... - and therefore power concentrates into these hands.

You can talk about how people play around at the edges of liberalism to try to blunt the cutting surface, but liberalism is defined by this interplay.
 
Why are all liberal systems so unequal then and end up with neoliberal economic system. Like where is that fabled socially economic wonderland?

As a Leftist I can point to Catalonia and say yeah it works if fascists don't kill you. Where is the social-liberal model?

I think New Zealand has a pretty damn good model. Sweden too, although I admit that's more social democratic. The Austrians, from what I gather, manage to do things pretty well too.
 
The protection of private property as something which cannot be meaningfully infringed is the core conceit of liberalism. There cannot be a liberal state which does not protect private property, and as such, the accumulation of capital into fewer and fewer hands is trivially inevitable - having more capital makes it easier to acquire capital, which makes it easier to acquire capital... - and therefore power concentrates into these hands.

You can talk about how people play around at the edges of liberalism to try to blunt the cutting surface, but liberalism is defined by this interplay.

The protection of private property, I would argue, is the core conceit of conservatism.

The core conceit of liberalism is the protection of liberty.
 
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The protection of private property, I would argue, is the core conceit of conservatism.

The core conceit of liberalism is the protection of liberty.
I'm pretty sure conservatism only exists for you as a scapegoat. Any evil or sin of liberalism's is transferred into conservatism.

I say this because the core conceit of liberalism is the protection of hierarchy and privilege. Property is merely one expression of this for conservatism, and one with which they merely make do - the higher, more sublime expression is military chieftancy (thus monarchy).
 
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