... Okay, at this point, the comparisons and metaphors have gotten so far off the wall that it kind of feels off-topic, and maybe even like a strawman argument. At the very least, from what I can tell you two are basically talking past each other right now, and I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting frustrated and salty just from sheer osmotic proximity to this argument. You have very different interpretations of what's going on and of what you want out of this quest, both positions being perfectly reasonable (well, to be honest, I think that believing the entire pool of blood situation might be an illusion falls into the textbook definition of shadowrunning, but otherwise it's reasonable and I don't want to argue about it), and it's clear that neither of you aren't going to be able to convince the other to budge one inch on your positions.

With that in mind, I can only see three ways for this to end: agreeing to disagree and dropping the argument semi-amicably, continuing to argue until the vote is called (which will end the argument but probably still leave behind latent frustration that may carry over into later votes, assuming things don't explode because the quest went south as a result), or continuing to argue for ten more pages until the argument boils over into vitriol. I don't know about you guys, but I'm really tired of seeing quests dissolve into salt because people can't recognize when the other side just isn't going to change their mind and refuse to let it drop. :/
 
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[closes eyes]

Okay... I'm just... on my side it's kind of depressing feeling as though I'm one of like three people following the quest who view lakes of blood and QM commentary that includes words like "run away" as not an exciting opportunity to be sought out preferentially over normal places and things. It makes me feel kind of alienated, like "am I the only one who feels this way?"

It's like... I've got this overpowering sense of "this is how Schmuck Bait is born..."

[sighs]

Sorry. I'm just... I hope someone understands how I feel about this.
 
[closes eyes]

Okay... I'm just... on my side it's kind of depressing feeling as though I'm one of like three people following the quest who view lakes of blood and QM commentary that includes words like "run away" as not an exciting opportunity to be sought out preferentially over normal places and things. It makes me feel kind of alienated, like "am I the only one who feels this way?"

It's like... I've got this overpowering sense of "this is how Schmuck Bait is born..."

[sighs]

Sorry. I'm just... I hope someone understands how I feel about this.
I get it, but on the flipside I'm incredibly distrusting of low mana environs in this quest [Road, Demo], and don't want to cause a massive panic when we drop in [Mart], so only the [Pool] remains as a reasonable option.
 
... Okay, at this point, the comparisons and metaphors have gotten so far off the wall that it kind of feels off-topic, and maybe even like a strawman argument. At the very least, from what I can tell you two are basically talking past each other right now, and I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting frustrated and salty just from osmotic proximity with this argument. You have very different interpretations of what's going on and of what you want out of this quest, both positions being perfectly reasonable (well, to be honest, I think that believing the entire pool of blood situation might be an illusion falls into the textbook definition of shadowrunning, but otherwise it's reasonable and I don't want to argue about it), and it's clear that neither of you aren't going to be able to convince the other to budge one inch on your positions.

With that in mind, I can only see three ways for this to end: agreeing to disagree and dropping the argument semi-amicably, continuing to argue until the vote is called (which will end the argument but probably still leave behind latent frustration that may carry over into later votes), or continuing to argue for ten more pages until the argument boils over into vitriol. I don't know about you guys, but I'm really tired of seeing quests dissolve into salt because people can't recognize when the other side just isn't going to change their mind and refuse to let it drop. :/
Your assumption is that I'm actually mad. I'm kinda not? I was earlier, but that's a whole different issue entirely. Aside from the road, I'm okay with pretty much any of the options. I just would like to do the lake. If we miss it, oh well, we'll probably get another chance to take a risk, eventually.

I do agree that it's gotten pretty garbled. Like I said earlier, it's tired, and I'm late.

I mean, I'd be willing to end this or take it elsewhere, if Simon wants to.
[closes eyes]

Okay... I'm just... on my side it's kind of depressing feeling as though I'm one of like three people following the quest who view lakes of blood and QM commentary that includes words like "run away" as not an exciting opportunity to be sought out preferentially over normal places and things. It makes me feel kind of alienated, like "am I the only one who feels this way?"

It's like... I've got this overpowering sense of "this is how Schmuck Bait is born..."

[sighs]

Sorry. I'm just... I hope someone understands how I feel about this.
*wince* Yeah, I think I've been in a similar situation before. Sorry about that.
I get it, but on the flipside I'm incredibly distrusting of low mana environs in this quest [Road, Demo], and don't want to cause a massive panic when we drop in [Mart], so only the [Pool] remains as a reasonable option.
Yeah...the low-mana environments are somewhat concerning, since potentially magic isn't used often there, with all that implies. The market...appearing in public, with that many witnesses, could attract attention we really don't want.
 
See, I might agree with you if Alivaril had a history like that one QM who spent three pages talking about how impossible a thing was... and then had that thing happen because of a decision to stay away from the much more obvious potential threat of assassins from unhappy inhabitants of the planet we just finished conquering...

It was literally the QM's response to people worried about the potential threat of our hired mercenaries that led to the players of that quest suffering a bad end at the hands of those hired mercenaries of the type the QM HAD JUST FINISHED EXPLAINING WAS IMPOSSIBLE.

If Alivaril was like that one QM who said "I don't offer trap votes" and then responded to the players trying to write in a way out of the deadlock they'd reached over which one of the two options offered was least appealing (both looked like traps to anyone familiar with either setting) with Bad End.

Alivaril isn't, when he says "you won't unavoidably bad end from making a decision on where to go" I believe him. So I think all the choices are valid in that they won't lead to immediate bad ending or unrecoverable harm until and unless the player base makes an informedly dumb choice.

Even with Calypso we did have the clues, but no one thought about them from the right angle until after the decision had been made AND even then Alivaril still gave us a path out. Calypso may have been the closest Ignition has come to a bad end, but it's one of the few scrapes with that I have seen where I genuinely feel their is no fault on the QM for obfuscating, misleading answers, or lack of information provided to the players.
 
Even with Calypso we did have the clues, but no one thought about them from the right angle until after the decision had been made AND even then Alivaril still gave us a path out. Calypso may have been the closest Ignition has come to a bad end, but it's one of the few scrapes with that I have seen where I genuinely feel their is no fault on the QM for obfuscating, misleading answers, or lack of information provided to the players.
Oh, no, we did a wonderful job unknowingly digging our own grave, there.

The data was all pretty much correct, Alivaril answered questions well, and we had all the information we could have logically had. It just so happens that we drew logical, but inaccurate, conclusions from what we know, and operated accordingly, and with a fair amount of caution. It just didn't help much, is all.

One of the big factors in that CF, IMO, was thinking that, if an enchantment was on a temple, the god who owned the temple put it there. I don't recall anyone on either side arguing that against that point, at least not strongly or for long (though I could be wrong, feel free to correct me). That was a perfectly logical thing to think, but it was wrong, and that colored a lot of decisions, at least for me. Logic, unfortunately, isn't a fool-proof method for avoiding problems.

However, I think there is one lesson learned from the Calypso disaster the we can all agree on, no matter how we feel about it, and how we think it went wrong. That lesson being 'mind-control is f*cking bullsh*t'.

(Edit: Imagine me saying that last bit as if I'm the host of a kid's show, giving the lesson of the episode. Because that's how I intended it.)
 
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Your assumption is that I'm actually mad. I'm kinda not? I was earlier, but that's a whole different issue entirely. Aside from the road, I'm okay with pretty much any of the options. I just would like to do the lake. If we miss it, oh well, we'll probably get another chance to take a risk, eventually.

I do agree that it's gotten pretty garbled. Like I said earlier, it's tired, and I'm late.

I mean, I'd be willing to end this or take it elsewhere, if Simon wants to.

That's fair enough, and I did sort of get the sense that you weren't angry so much as... debating? If that makes sense? I don't know how else to put it. It's just that I've seen arguments like this play out in other threads-- heck, I've been part of them-- and I've gotten pretty good at judging when an argument is still productive and when it's definitely just going to end in salt if it keeps going the way it's going.

For the record (and so this post stays reasonably on-topic :V), I'm mostly voting to satiate curiosity. There isn't really enough information to make decisions on any other basis, imo-- the pool of blood would normally look too risky for the potential reward of MOAR MANA, but mystery singer's dorky demeanor is pretty disarming, and I can't really buy that the whole thing is just an illusory trick-- seriously, why make it this strange and perilous-seeming, in that case? Combined with the other oddities, it's just too curiosity-inducing to write off entirely. Still put it under the demo, though, since that one is less clearly dangerous. Marketplace is third because it might lead to social (Melia is just really fun to watch interacting with others), and road doesn't suggest anything of immediate interest so fourth place.
 
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I get it, but on the flipside I'm incredibly distrusting of low mana environs in this quest [Road, Demo]
See, the thing is, the worst probable case scenario outcome for the road is that we spend a few days wandering around as a drifter in a low-magic world until our tether snaps and we end up going somewhere else.

It's hard to predict what the worst probable case scenario is for the pool of blood, but it probably involves contributing all of our blood to the pool or something. Sure, any death or other bad ends we face will be uncertain, possibly avoidable deaths at the hands of a danger we got warnings about in advance, because Alivaril is a good QM... But that doesn't mean we're not taking risks, or that the magnitude of the risk is actually justified by the magnitude of the reward.

See, I might agree with you if Alivaril had a history like that one QM who spent three pages talking about how impossible a thing was... and then had that thing happen because of a decision to stay away from the much more obvious potential threat of assassins from unhappy inhabitants of the planet we just finished conquering...

If Alivaril was like that one QM who said "I don't offer trap votes" and then responded to the players trying to write in a way out of the deadlock they'd reached over which one of the two options offered was least appealing (both looked like traps to anyone familiar with either setting) with Bad End.

Alivaril isn't, when he says "you won't unavoidably bad end from making a decision on where to go" I believe him. So I think all the choices are valid in that they won't lead to immediate bad ending or unrecoverable harm until and unless the player base makes an informedly dumb choice.

Even with Calypso we did have the clues, but no one thought about them from the right angle until after the decision had been made AND even then Alivaril still gave us a path out. Calypso may have been the closest Ignition has come to a bad end, but it's one of the few scrapes with that I have seen where I genuinely feel their is no fault on the QM for obfuscating, misleading answers, or lack of information provided to the players.
See, this is why I said "how Schmuck Bait is born." The final stage of the schmuck-baiting process is where someone says "IF YOU PUSH THIS BUTTON YOU DIE" and someone else pushes that button.

It's like, they did a study where they seated a volunteer in a bare, featureless room with a chair and, some distance away, a metal bar. They informed the subject that if they touched the bar, they would receive an electric shock. Then they left them in the room for fifteen minutes.

Two thirds of men (but only one quarter of women) touched the bar at least once.

Now, I'm pretty sure that a lot of those men (and women) could say things like "I genuinely feel there is no fault on the experimenter for obfuscating, misleading answers, or lack of information provided to me. I totally touched that metal pole and got an electric shock on my own, and they totally warned me."

But that's kind of beside the point. The point is, human beings have an amazing ability to just utterly disregard all the possible or probable undesired consequences of a course of action, once they have come up with a justification for doing it, even a stupid one like "I'm bored" or "I bet they were lying to me about the electric shock." Because those are pretty dumb reasons.

[At least the masochistic person who touched the bar over a hundred times had a good reason. :p]

Aaanyway. Personally, I find it very hard to fathom what was going through the minds of the people who touched the bar; I've been bored but seldom if ever that bored, certainly not after fifteen minutes. But by the same token, I find it hard to fathom what's going through the minds of people who think the lake of blood looks shiny rather than being an obvious way to have terrible things happen if we misestimate or underestimate or fail to accurately perceive what's going on in there. Even accepting that the bare fact of going there isn't certain terrible death, that is hardly a QM guarantee that going there doesn't mean, say, a high probability of death. Say, a monster who will kill us if we don't answer her riddles.

I feel like there are very similar thought processes involved in touching the electrified bar, and in going for the pool of blood, except that the pool of blood is more superficially scary and unappealing than the electrified bar...
 
I feel like there are very similar thought processes involved in touching the electrified bar, and in going for the pool of blood, except that the pool of blood
And a far greater chance of some reward. Touching the bar only relieves some boredom, there might actually be real rewards there. Plus none of the other options appeal to me on a logical level.
 
Can I just say that the argument of "I'm only interested in the one that looks like it might get us killed" feels... really uncharitable?
 
Can I just say that the argument of "I'm only interested in the one that looks like it might get us killed" feels... really uncharitable?
Low mana levels mean we can't defend ourselves, explosions everywhere, we cause a scene upon entry and get at least arrested. Honestly, the pool seems like the safest option to me.
 
That's fair enough, and I did sort of get the sense that you weren't angry so much as... debating? If that makes sense? I don't know how else to put it. It's just that I've seen arguments like this play out in other threads-- heck, I've been part of them-- and I've gotten pretty good at judging when an argument is still productive and when it's definitely just going to end in salt if it keeps going the way it's going.
Sounds about right. Thanks for stepping in before then.
For the record (and so this post stays reasonably on-topic :V), I'm mostly voting to satiate curiosity. There isn't really enough information to make decisions on any other basis, imo-- the pool of blood would normally look too risky for the potential reward of MOAR MANA, but mystery singer's dorky demeanor is pretty disarming, and I can't really buy that the whole thing is just an illusory trick-- seriously, why make it this strange and perilous-seeming, in that case? Combined with the other oddities, it's just too curiosity-inducing to write off entirely. Still put it under the demo, though, since that one is less clearly dangerous. Marketplace is third because it might lead to social (Melia is just really fun to watch interacting with others), and road doesn't suggest anything of immediate interest so fourth place.
I can understand that.
She'll always be a Pokemon trainer, but she might someday graduate from a normal one to one from Pokemon Special. :V We're going to be riding elementals and buffing them and providing fire support.
That comic is so good. I wish it'd had inspired the anime. Alas.
See, the thing is, the worst probable case scenario outcome for the road is that we spend a few days wandering around as a drifter in a low-magic world until our tether snaps and we end up going somewhere else.

It's hard to predict what the worst probable case scenario is for the pool of blood, but it probably involves contributing all of our blood to the pool or something. Sure, any death or other bad ends we face will be uncertain, possibly avoidable deaths at the hands of a danger we got warnings about in advance, because Alivaril is a good QM... But that doesn't mean we're not taking risks, or that the magnitude of the risk is actually justified by the magnitude of the reward.
Not sure I agree with that first bit. I'd actually call that the best-case scenario. I would be very surprised if we managed to acquire anything of value there.

I'm going to have to disagree with your 'worst probable case scenario', though. I don't think it's probable that we'll die, given what we've been told by the QM.
But that's kind of beside the point. The point is, human beings have an amazing ability to just utterly disregard all the possible or probable undesired consequences of a course of action, once they have come up with a justification for doing it, even a stupid one like "I'm bored" or "I bet they were lying to me about the electric shock." Because those are pretty dumb reasons.
I would just like to point out that I have ADHD. That doesn't excuse my occasionally impulsive behavior, but at least in my case it's somewhat pathological. I'm treated, sure, but it never really goes away completely. Also, mania from bipolar can come with similar issues. So I'm kinda doubled down on the impulse issues, since I have both, and lean towards mania. So yeah, I'm kinda impulsive.
Aaanyway. Personally, I find it very hard to fathom what was going through the minds of the people who touched the bar; I've been bored but seldom if ever that bored, certainly not after fifteen minutes. But by the same token, I find it hard to fathom what's going through the minds of people who think the lake of blood looks shiny rather than being an obvious way to have terrible things happen if we misestimate or underestimate or fail to accurately perceive what's going on in there. Even accepting that the bare fact of going there isn't certain terrible death, that is hardly a QM guarantee that going there doesn't mean, say, a high probability of death. Say, a monster who will kill us if we don't answer her riddles.
I gotta say, that would be pretty BS and railroad-y. And it kinda sounds like something our powers were supposed to be avoiding. I mean, supposedly our powers are actively avoiding areas with a lot of danger. That example would be more than enough for me to call 'BS'.
...*cough*

I'd probably be one of those people.


Yes, I know this is somewhat inaccurate. It's a joke.
Only somewhat, though. To cite an example: A.G. Streng.

"Oh, it violently exploded the first time I mixed these two chemicals. I'll mix it more slowly next time."

...Not that Streng is a bastion of sanity, by any means.
Low mana levels mean we can't defend ourselves, explosions everywhere, we cause a scene upon entry and get at least arrested. Honestly, the pool seems like the safest option to me.
It all depends on how you weight the various factors.
 
Low mana levels mean we can't defend ourselves, explosions everywhere, we cause a scene upon entry and get at least arrested. Honestly, the pool seems like the safest option to me.
It's just a slower mana regen rate. There's nothing stopping us from casting spells there other than our complete inability to cast spells. Our elementals might be adversely affected, but if that was going to be a problem I imagine it would have come up in the narration.

And causing a scene is sort of the appeal of going to a low-magic world. They won't have any magic capable of holding us so I don't see why being arrested is a concern. If they have SCIENCE capable of holding us, well... I welcome our new science fiction overlords.
 
And causing a scene is sort of the appeal of going to a low-magic world. They won't have any magic capable of holding us so I don't see why being arrested is a concern. If they have SCIENCE capable of holding us, well... I welcome our new science fiction overlords.
What they can and will do is take all of our stuff.
 
What they can and will do is take all of our stuff.
That's a good point, but don't have any stuff that can't be replaced. The most valuable thing we have is a one-use item. And the food and water, it might get dangerous having that confiscated.

Oh, wait, the study plans for magic. That's the most valuable thing we have right now.
Adhoc vote count started by pressea on Jul 14, 2017 at 2:06 AM, finished with 151 posts and 1 votes.

  • [X] Automatically included: Pick up the supplies Morgan has gathered so far and ask him if he's figured out anything else.
    [x] Ask Morgan if you can take a training orb with you.
    [x] Gather your supplies, say goodbye to Morgan, and break the anchor early.
    -[x] Explain the reasoning - you have a feeling that there's something Going On, and unless he can gather some significant extra supplies in the next 24 hours you're better off following your apparent new instincts.
    -[x] Let him watch.

Adhoc vote count started by pressea on Jul 14, 2017 at 2:19 AM
This vote count is in an error state, please contact support

Adhoc vote count started by pressea on Jul 14, 2017 at 2:20 AM
This vote count is in an error state, please contact support
 
It's just a slower mana regen rate. There's nothing stopping us from casting spells there other than our complete inability to cast spells. Our elementals might be adversely affected, but if that was going to be a problem I imagine it would have come up in the narration.

And causing a scene is sort of the appeal of going to a low-magic world. They won't have any magic capable of holding us so I don't see why being arrested is a concern. If they have SCIENCE capable of holding us, well... I welcome our new science fiction overlords.
I mean, if it's medieval, but low-to-no-magic, we might get a mob after us for witchcraft, but I think our elementals could handle it.
What they can and will do is take all of our stuff.
That is also true.
 
Low mana levels mean we can't defend ourselves, explosions everywhere, we cause a scene upon entry and get at least arrested. Honestly, the pool seems like the safest option to me.
Do areas not vary significantly in magic levels? "Low magic" at the point of exit isn't the same as low magic everywhere. Plus, I'd rather try to deal with the local police of the fireworks dimension, with no more magic than is found in that dimension, than deal with the being responsible for that pool of blood, with all the magic of that pool.

Local police probably won't have a teenage girl summarily executed for appearing out of the middle of nowhere. Realistic societies generally are not that batshit.
_______________________

EDIT: And before we get too involved in "but what about witch hunts?" Consider:

Witch hunts in real life generally went after the following classes of people:
1) Unpopular members of a community.
2) People accused of witchcraft by other people who had been accused, who were trying to avoid death by deflecting blame.
3) People who had assets that another person could take for themselves by getting the victim executed for witchcraft.

The thing these groups have in common is that the people accusing them and getting them killed have a motive to kill them. With Melia falling out of the middle of nowhere, the motive isn't there, and even if there are laws on the books saying "magicians must be put to death*... The most likely result is going to be an extended period in captivity, at least hours, in which time Melia can sever her tether. Even if there's danger it is not going to be immediate danger, unless these people are not merely nonmagical but also completely bughouse insane.
_________________________

*By the way, I think that "what if the fireworks dimension has a 'burn all magic-users' law" speculation is WAAAY more contrived than "what if the lake of blood with the familiar scent and the unseen voice singing about forgetting the fear was created by the sort of entity that might attack or otherwise harm people" speculation.

Not sure I agree with that first bit. I'd actually call that the best-case scenario. I would be very surprised if we managed to acquire anything of value there.
Well the point of origin is pretty boring- but then, look at the dimension we just visited! NONE of what we gained came from the site we first appeared at. Everything we got (including a variety of valuable supplies and knowledge) came from interacting with the local inhabitants. We didn't know what the inhabitants would be like when we went to the 'tower in the woods' site, we just happened across them later.

If the tower had been a stretch of road in the middle of nowhere, and we'd encountered the same two people and so on, everything would have played out the same way. It is simply not justified to say "our point of entry looks boring, therefore the whole dimension is boring."

By contrast, "our point of entry looks dangerous, therefore the point of entry itself is dangerous" is basically a tautology. Note that I'm not even saying the whole dimension is dangerous, just that the specific part of it with a lake of blood looks dangerous.

I'm going to have to disagree with your 'worst probable case scenario', though. I don't think it's probable that we'll die, given what we've been told by the QM.
Because, um... he's told us that just deciding to go there will not in and of itself be lethal?Do you have more reason than that?

I mean, Alivaril has never, ever said that the places we're going are safe. I don't think he's ever said anything that can reasonably be interpreted as, say "I won't create any dimensions where Melia would have, say, a 30% chance of dying or being imprisoned and horribly tortured forever."

Your words imply that you believe that no such dimensions exist. I cannot understand why you believe this. All Alivaril promised is that just picking 'the wrong dimension' to go to won't kill us all by itself. It doesn't mean the places we go are safe, it doesn't mean there isn't great danger. It doesn't mean we can just skip the step of trying to rationally evaluate the hazards associated with the places we proposed to go.

I would just like to point out that I have ADHD. That doesn't excuse my occasionally impulsive behavior, but at least in my case it's somewhat pathological. I'm treated, sure, but it never really goes away completely. Also, mania from bipolar can come with similar issues. So I'm kinda doubled down on the impulse issues, since I have both, and lean towards mania. So yeah, I'm kinda impulsive.
Well, I sympathize, but we've been discussing this issue all day, so this isn't exactly an impulse decision on your part. It's like, an impulse can lead two thirds of all men to do something stupid (touch the electrified bar). I can at least sympathize with that, because I can hardly pretend that two thirds of all men are just deeply defective.

At the same time, we've been arguing over whether to touch the electrified bar all day from my point of view. It's gotten a bit confusingly exasperating. And yes, as someone else pointed out, here there are potential rewards whereas with the electrified bar there are zero rewards other than "relieve boredom." On the other hand, the risks are a lot higher than "receive mild electric shock."

I gotta say, that would be pretty BS and railroad-y. And it kinda sounds like something our powers were supposed to be avoiding. I mean, supposedly our powers are actively avoiding areas with a lot of danger. That example would be more than enough for me to call 'BS'.
Really?

So, us appearing in a place where we're attacked is bullshit?

Because I don't recall Alivaril telling us all the places we'd go would be safe. I recall him saying none of them would be unavoidable death. Making us answer a riddle to avoid being attacked (by a monster we could conceivably just plain defeat, or talk out of eating us) would be positively tame, by those standards. "Unavoidable death" would be something like dimension-jumping into a volcano, or a dragon's mouth.

It does NOT mean that, say, we won't encounter bandits, or a monster that likes to eat people, or a trap that's hard to escape from, or a magic system where losing control of our spells would attract the attention of demons, or something like that.
 
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Similarly, it might well be possible that with the right tools, a magically capable entity could "look back" at us through the portals or be aware on some level. I'd be more comfortable ruling that out when we know more about how portals work.

How do we even know it smells like us, as opposed to smelling like some kind of exotic magical incense smoke that makes the subject think they're detecting their own body odor? By definition, we can't be familiar with something we can't normally perceive, can we? Not in a way that makes us certain we're not being tricked.


If there exists some magical entity on the other side of the portal, reading our mind through the portal and crafting an illusion to lure us in, then Melia is screwed no matter which portal we pick, because that would be the one the monster crafted for us.
 
Low mana levels mean we can't defend ourselves, explosions everywhere, we cause a scene upon entry and get at least arrested. Honestly, the pool seems like the safest option to me.
You realise the world we're in right now has low mana levels according to Melia. We are still able to use magic and to call our elementals in a low mana location.

In addition, mana level of a location depends on population of magical things; a clearing or a road would naturally have low mana levels whereas a city would naturally have slightly higher and a magical creature lair obviously higher. We know, for example, that an abandoned human residence in the woods had slightly more ambient mana.

It seems vanishingly unlikely to get arrested at the fountain. There are elementals at the fountain, which means we are unlikely to be so out of context.
 
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