Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Making requests gives Delight a chance to try to make a deal. I'd prefer to keep as many missteps as possible between us and accidentally making an offer of any sort.
Consumption
- Thread starter Alivaril
- Start date
- Original
Thanatanos
PvP Lover, Assasin Player
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Granted, expressing preferences is also a bit dangerous.
Some of this depends on how formal Delight has to be about accepting deals, and on how much truth she's speaking about having to speak the truth and obtain consent. It might be that contracts can't be formed verbally, for example.
Some of this depends on how formal Delight has to be about accepting deals, and on how much truth she's speaking about having to speak the truth and obtain consent. It might be that contracts can't be formed verbally, for example.
- Location
- A single human dimension
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Basically because it's how the last one was handled.
I would say that very much makes asking the questions utterly useless in the context of this interaction. Making some sort of deal requires an offer of an exchange. Delight's own words also claim her formal contracts have to be accepted by all parties. You're opening yourself up to some very nasty word games, which Melia has already proven vulnerable to, by avoiding direct questioning.
Ugh. I don't have time to rephrase in that way, but if there isn't an IC point to it then I'm not going to change anything. If there is a specific point from Melia to it, then someone else will have to modify it, I'm out for the rest of the evening.
Honestly that looks more like a "let Melia decide how to word things exactly rather than feeding her lines" (which is something that some of us have been consciously trying to get away from on other quests) rather than "avoid ending sentences in question marks at all costs".
It's why I asked if this was an impulse coming from Melia (i.e. if it was a result of the "protocols" thing)
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
We have no idea what "accepted" means.
We're already in word games territory; we were in word games the instant we started talking to someone that brags about having deceived zero people when bargaining for souls. We either go back to basic epistemology or we accept that we're fucked and leave now.
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- Location
- A single human dimension
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Basically, editing them to be more direct and the related logic should, presumably, cancel out the "imply" part. I just wanted to be sure the original "Imply more questions" was just a relic of the original base vote. That appears to be the case.
I think the real question is whether we have any IC reason to believe that 'implying' will help or that not doing so will hurt us.
ISTR there are some stories here on Earth in which a fae character can seize on some request, name their own price for it, and close the deal without the human having actually agreed to the terms. Does Melia's world have any of those?
ISTR there are some stories here on Earth in which a fae character can seize on some request, name their own price for it, and close the deal without the human having actually agreed to the terms. Does Melia's world have any of those?
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We have no idea what any one word means. For all we know every word exchanged could have a completely different meaning and all we'd have to is say enough words that we didn't know the real meaning of to tie ourselves in knots until the end of the universe. So I don't accept that argument about word meanings at all. It's nonsense.
e: And we're using a reliable translation anyway. If the word had different implications, a different word would have been used.
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- Location
- A single human dimension
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Beyond making sure you watch what you say with extra extra scrutiny, not really.
Will confirm OOC (in addition to IC, which has already sorta been done) that translation between languages will not be a problem when it comes to deceptive phrasing, lying by omission, terms offered, etc.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[x] SynchronizedWritersBlock
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
I was more concerned about her little bit about having deceived exactly zero people, and particularly what that means about her willingness to completely ignore projections of intent in favor of playing games. Everything I can see is telling me that this is a genie of the second kind and that we should be running for the hills. Walk out the door right now, apologize for having landed in a restricted area there are extenuating circumstances, and could we have a place to stay for the next few weeks.
edit: Seriously, if you think that speaking directly is going to save you, you're nuts. I fully expect Delight to be able to do literally whatever she wants no matter what agreement she signs. About the only thing that can curtail this kind of thing is going to be a more powerful entity that imposes its own rules on contracts, and how could we possibly learn about that except from Delight herself?
edit edit: Why am I so angry right now? Goddamnit, and I was having a good day, too. :/
edit: Seriously, if you think that speaking directly is going to save you, you're nuts. I fully expect Delight to be able to do literally whatever she wants no matter what agreement she signs. About the only thing that can curtail this kind of thing is going to be a more powerful entity that imposes its own rules on contracts, and how could we possibly learn about that except from Delight herself?
edit edit: Why am I so angry right now? Goddamnit, and I was having a good day, too. :/
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Well, I'm not willing to go back to basic epistemology, as it would be a really terrible way to even talk about anything at all, nevermind a quest vote, and I'm not going to cease this interaction on those fears. So it appears that from your point of view, we're fucked. Too bad.
On an alternate POV, we could accept that we can talk to this person without agreeing to a deal so long as we don't talk about what we're going to be doing for something and only in terms of what happens in X case, referring to terms she's already proposed.
I should note that the claim of having deceived zero people is:
- possibly predicated on an inability to deceive people while making deals for souls
- likely true for the High Priestess specifically, because the High Priestess knew exactly the consequence given the pains she made to avoid that consequence
- was furthermore explained that she may have released the High Priestess's soul contingent on an agreement not to kill her
If you have too dig deeply into word meanings then there's no point to interacting at all. It seems likely that this isn't a case of Delight playing a word game, but the other party, especially if to the priestess "deceived" meant "I foolishly didn't think about the true consequences of my actions", which is to me an obvious misuse of the word. And, like, would you tell your acolytes the true specifics of your deal with a demon?
That's not even mentioning the epistemological implications of a universal translator, although I find those arguments too meta to make seriously.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I feel like you're maybe seeing shadows where there are none right now. If everyone went into a deal with her having agreed to a contract that was properly laid out then she literally deceived no one unless she violated the terms of those contracts, and thus far we have no evidence to suggest she did so.
I mean... What seems more likely to you? A spirit offering deals only to renege on those deals for some arbitrary unknown reason? Or a church that considers all deals with spirits to require deception due to religious dogma and thus imprisons the spirit despite that spirit never having violated any of it's contracts and never having deceived anyone?
I dunno about you, but to me the second seems like a far more plausible scenario.
EDIT: Or as SWB mentioned, a person who regrets a deal they made far after they made it deciding that they wish they didn't and thus deciding thus must have been deceived to have made the deal rather than acknowledging that they made it of their own free will at the time? That seems even more likely than a church being dogmatic and stupid.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
The only reason for them to have phrased their demand as "release all souls" rather than "release her soul" is if they believed Delight had more souls than just the high priestess's. If Delight is immortal as theorized, and she's been making deals at any sort of regular rate, then probability approaches one that she's made at least one deal that's permanent instead of a lease.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
To be clear, she is saying that her freedom is worth as much or more to her as the amount of effort it would take to save our life is worth to her. She said "Purging your curse or illness seems like a fair trade for my freedom, but if you want more, I'm afraid we'll need to work out a proper covenant..."
She may believe that we are suffering from some illness that she could cure with a trifling effort. It might be no more difficult for her than, say, a few minutes of light physical exercise. Or even easier. It is conceivable that for her, purging our curse or illness would be a fair trade for passing the salt.
What I think she means by the (conveniently bright red) passage quoted is "if you want to offer me my freedom in exchange for a cure for the disease I believe you have, sure, that's a fair exchange, but if you're going to ask more than that, we need to make a contract and you need to raise your offer. Oh, and I don't take credit cards anymore."
I submit that in a seemingly limitless number of dimensions, the probability of finding both these things converges on 100% very closely. It's quite possible that we could be dealing with a church that hates it when people lease their souls to devils, AND a devil that likes getting people to agree to soul-leases and possessions and then reneging on their side of the bargain for giggles.
'Delight' did not merely decline to release the soul of the high priestess. She released literally zero souls. Since we do not know how many souls she has taken, we cannot assume that ALL of them were engaged in the same kind of self-deceit as the high priestess, nor does it follow that none of THEM were tricked.
Moreover, and this was Vebyast's original point... 'Delight' seemed positively self-satisfied, as in genuinely smiling, at the fact that she had technically complied with their demand, but done so by releasing zero souls.
Imagine we met a person like this in real life, a mere mortal who boasted of having cleverly 'complied' with a poorly worded request by doing nothing at all. Think about the kind of person who derives pleasure from having frustrated a person who has them imprisoned and is making (poorly worded) demands. That means they obviously value their own skill at lawyering agreements highly, perhaps even more highly than their own welfare and continued freedom.
What kind of person talks and thinks that way?
Well, 'Delight' may be a supernatural creature, but she is also that same kind of person.
It is wise, when dealing with such people, to word one's requests very carefully, to avoid trusting them to carry out an agreement in the manner specified, and in general it is usually best not to make deals with such people at all. They enjoy their own ability to cleverly twist your words and intent too much. Enough so that it is almost certainly less work and less risky to just get what you want from someone else entirely. Someone you can actually trust farther than you can throw them.
The same logic applies here; the only reason to deal with 'Delight' at all is if we want her to give us something that we cannot get by other means. Even then, we should think very carefully.
Point of order: I am pretty sure that " I dealt not with infinity" means "I don't do infinite-term soul leases."
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Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I would argue that the context is entirely what matters. Especially when we don't actually know how many -if any- others were as 'dissatisfied' with their arrangement as this high priestess was. For all we know the souls of the others that Delight contracted with are perfectly happy with the arrangement. I see your point about dealing carefully, and I will ask that you note I never advocated against being cautious.
I am merely opposed to distrusting Delight without good reason. As it is, we have effectively no evidence either way, and all suppositions as to her honesty or lack thereof are quite frankly fundamentally baseless at present. The only way we will know more is if we ask more questions. Our current knowledge is wholly insufficient, and yet people are already making judgement calls like they think we can possibly know the score.
And honestly... If I had someone make a deal with me, then come back thirty years later, trick me into writing up another contract for someone else, only for it to be a trick so that they can then have me imprisoned because they aren't happy with their original deal any more. I would be pretty damn smug about not giving into their demands either, and I generally consider myself to be nothing like the person you just described. I think she is entirely justified in being pleased about not caving when faced with such a situation.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Hmm. I guess there's a meta argument somewhere... I am not particularly interested in dealing with a monkey's-paw wish lawyer for the rest of the quest. Alivaril's already seen one quest die because Kyubey was too damn good at his job and people hated dealing with him, and Agneyastra had a little bit of the same issue at times. I think that we can assume that, even if Delight is one of the more heinous genies, we'll have a way to shut her down and not have her turn literally every scene into a legal battle.
3.2: Watching the Watcher
- Location
- A single human dimension
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] (Default) Tell Delight you'd really like it if she avoided bringing up the potential of a love life or any related inappropriate acts.
You try to imagine a solid, bright green wall to take your thoughts off Delight's teasing. That turns into grass, you imagine the grass in flames to avoid the first image which comes to mind, and the grassfire somehow turns into cuddling next to a campfire.
You give up. Trying not to think about them is just making things worse.
"I'd really appreciate it if we could avoid discussing my potential love life or any related inappropriate acts. Or bringing it up at all, really. Plea—"
You clamp your mouth shut just before the request exits your mouth. Delight briefly raises one eyebrow.
"Manners seldom hurt anyone."
"Sorry."
[x] Ask more questions.
-[X] What does Delight do with souls? What's the point to Delight of owning a soul for a short time, like she would with the Priestess's?
After a moment of thought, you stop trying to rephrase everything so they wouldn't be questions. You doubt it was doing any good and it was tricky to remember.
"What do you do with souls?"
Delight's fingers twitch.
"The usual."
"Which is...?"
"I get to have an intelligent subordinate for an amount of time equal to much of the average mortal life. What more would I need? Even if they can't survive in this Realm any longer, a mortal soul can get a lot done in over fifty years."
-[X] What is it Delight can do that a powerful person like a High Priestess can't?
"What can you do that a powerful person—like, say, a High Priestess—can't?"
Delight squints at you. No response is forthcoming for several seconds, and even once she provides one, the staring continues. You're not even sure she notices your elementals glaring at her in response. Except for the one youkidnapped stole rescued, that is. It's still happily munching away at its pastry.
"Many, many things," Delight replies slowly. "We have different specialties. She is a Follower; I am an Astral. She channels borrowed power to accomplish tasks; I use my own. That's like asking what she can do that you, an Arcane, cannot. I deal with the permanent, her borrowed power forces her toward the transient. Comparing us just doesn't work very well. I suppose my knowledge base is undeniably superior to her own, yet I do not believe that's what you were asking about. I have occupied an Arcane before; I could teach you what I know."
-[X] If Delight is released, would she immediately move to claim the soul the High Priestess owes her? How does that work, do they war for it magically?
-[X] How long has it been since the High Priestess and her acolytes imprisoned Delight here?
"Still asking questions, not talking terms. If someone releases you, would you immediately claim the High Priestess's owed soul? And how long has it been since the High Priestess and her acolytes imprisoned you here?"
"Two or three decades. I wish I could wreak immediate vengeance upon her. No, I'll need to wait until she dies. She'll come to me then whether she likes it or not."
Delight's face morphs into perhaps the creepiest smile you've seen in your entire life. The sadistic glee(?) vanishes within moments, but you'll remember what you saw.
You swallow and decide to move along.
-[X] What exactly does shared possession involve? How does Delight benefit from shared possession? How does control of your body figure into it? Of your mind or thoughts? Does she need consent to act while in shared possession of someone?
"What does shared possession involve, exactly?"
Delight stops squinting at you, but only so she can raise her eyebrows.
Yeah, thanks.
"At its most basic level, I'd share your senses and can speak with you whenever I wish. We could each choose to allow the other to read our emotions or remove that privilege whenever we desire. I would also shield you from excessive quantities of ownerless mana and likely grant you numerous physical improvements. Should we choose to go even further, we would be able to switch control for a previously-agreed period of time every moon, traditionally from sunrise to midnight. You'd be the observer while I got to control your body."
You imagine being a spectator in your own body and immediately shudder. It sounds horrifying.
"How else do you benefit from shared possession?"
"I wouldn't need to spend power on making and maintaining a physical vessel in this Realm, nor would my own soul sustain damage when your own inevitably dies. Most importantly, I'd benefit from the continuous mana reserve growth displayed by all Arcanes without harming your own rate. Why should I pass up an extra way to permanently increase my powers?"
"...I'm going to assume that was a rhetorical question. What about my mind and thoughts? Would you be able to spy on either?"
"Not with any of the versions I'd use as that would work both ways."
"Affect either?"
"Not directly. You may listen and choose to heed my advice, yet the same holds true for any discussion between intelligent beings. I would not be able to unduly influence your mind or thoughts no matter which version of shared possession we ultimately choose to use, if any. With your consent, I'd be able to manipulate and alter your body, but not your mind."
"Would you need consent for bodily changes?"
"Yes. I'd also like to add a clause forcing each of us to avoid knowingly harming the other or perform actions which would lead to such. It would be so very much easier than watching one another for any signs of betrayal."
"I guess that sounds like a good idea. I mean, if I did accept, and I'm not sure I will, and—never mind. Would you need permission to start controlling my—that is, um, to start controlling the body of those you're sharing possession with?"
"That would depend on the original terms of the agreement. I believe it would be easiest if I simply warned the other individual a day or two before I used one of my days, assuming I'd have the traditional one or more per moon."
[] Ask yet more questions.
-[] What would she be willing to offer you in exchange for the lesser version of shared possession?
--[] And what about the one where you'd switch for one or more days every month?
-[] By the way, you're not exactly sick, cursed, or desperate. What else is she willing to offer for her freedom?
-[] Write-in
[] If she can't do significantly better, you're leaving.
-[] Could she make a starting offer instead of forcing you into all this guesswork?
[] Write-in
You try to imagine a solid, bright green wall to take your thoughts off Delight's teasing. That turns into grass, you imagine the grass in flames to avoid the first image which comes to mind, and the grassfire somehow turns into cuddling next to a campfire.
You give up. Trying not to think about them is just making things worse.
"I'd really appreciate it if we could avoid discussing my potential love life or any related inappropriate acts. Or bringing it up at all, really. Plea—"
You clamp your mouth shut just before the request exits your mouth. Delight briefly raises one eyebrow.
"Manners seldom hurt anyone."
"Sorry."
[x] Ask more questions.
-[X] What does Delight do with souls? What's the point to Delight of owning a soul for a short time, like she would with the Priestess's?
After a moment of thought, you stop trying to rephrase everything so they wouldn't be questions. You doubt it was doing any good and it was tricky to remember.
"What do you do with souls?"
Delight's fingers twitch.
"The usual."
"Which is...?"
"I get to have an intelligent subordinate for an amount of time equal to much of the average mortal life. What more would I need? Even if they can't survive in this Realm any longer, a mortal soul can get a lot done in over fifty years."
-[X] What is it Delight can do that a powerful person like a High Priestess can't?
"What can you do that a powerful person—like, say, a High Priestess—can't?"
Delight squints at you. No response is forthcoming for several seconds, and even once she provides one, the staring continues. You're not even sure she notices your elementals glaring at her in response. Except for the one you
"Many, many things," Delight replies slowly. "We have different specialties. She is a Follower; I am an Astral. She channels borrowed power to accomplish tasks; I use my own. That's like asking what she can do that you, an Arcane, cannot. I deal with the permanent, her borrowed power forces her toward the transient. Comparing us just doesn't work very well. I suppose my knowledge base is undeniably superior to her own, yet I do not believe that's what you were asking about. I have occupied an Arcane before; I could teach you what I know."
-[X] If Delight is released, would she immediately move to claim the soul the High Priestess owes her? How does that work, do they war for it magically?
-[X] How long has it been since the High Priestess and her acolytes imprisoned Delight here?
"Still asking questions, not talking terms. If someone releases you, would you immediately claim the High Priestess's owed soul? And how long has it been since the High Priestess and her acolytes imprisoned you here?"
"Two or three decades. I wish I could wreak immediate vengeance upon her. No, I'll need to wait until she dies. She'll come to me then whether she likes it or not."
Delight's face morphs into perhaps the creepiest smile you've seen in your entire life. The sadistic glee(?) vanishes within moments, but you'll remember what you saw.
You swallow and decide to move along.
-[X] What exactly does shared possession involve? How does Delight benefit from shared possession? How does control of your body figure into it? Of your mind or thoughts? Does she need consent to act while in shared possession of someone?
"What does shared possession involve, exactly?"
Delight stops squinting at you, but only so she can raise her eyebrows.
Yeah, thanks.
"At its most basic level, I'd share your senses and can speak with you whenever I wish. We could each choose to allow the other to read our emotions or remove that privilege whenever we desire. I would also shield you from excessive quantities of ownerless mana and likely grant you numerous physical improvements. Should we choose to go even further, we would be able to switch control for a previously-agreed period of time every moon, traditionally from sunrise to midnight. You'd be the observer while I got to control your body."
You imagine being a spectator in your own body and immediately shudder. It sounds horrifying.
"How else do you benefit from shared possession?"
"I wouldn't need to spend power on making and maintaining a physical vessel in this Realm, nor would my own soul sustain damage when your own inevitably dies. Most importantly, I'd benefit from the continuous mana reserve growth displayed by all Arcanes without harming your own rate. Why should I pass up an extra way to permanently increase my powers?"
"...I'm going to assume that was a rhetorical question. What about my mind and thoughts? Would you be able to spy on either?"
"Not with any of the versions I'd use as that would work both ways."
"Affect either?"
"Not directly. You may listen and choose to heed my advice, yet the same holds true for any discussion between intelligent beings. I would not be able to unduly influence your mind or thoughts no matter which version of shared possession we ultimately choose to use, if any. With your consent, I'd be able to manipulate and alter your body, but not your mind."
"Would you need consent for bodily changes?"
"Yes. I'd also like to add a clause forcing each of us to avoid knowingly harming the other or perform actions which would lead to such. It would be so very much easier than watching one another for any signs of betrayal."
"I guess that sounds like a good idea. I mean, if I did accept, and I'm not sure I will, and—never mind. Would you need permission to start controlling my—that is, um, to start controlling the body of those you're sharing possession with?"
"That would depend on the original terms of the agreement. I believe it would be easiest if I simply warned the other individual a day or two before I used one of my days, assuming I'd have the traditional one or more per moon."
[] Ask yet more questions.
-[] What would she be willing to offer you in exchange for the lesser version of shared possession?
--[] And what about the one where you'd switch for one or more days every month?
-[] By the way, you're not exactly sick, cursed, or desperate. What else is she willing to offer for her freedom?
-[] Write-in
[] If she can't do significantly better, you're leaving.
-[] Could she make a starting offer instead of forcing you into all this guesswork?
[] Write-in
I love that her expressions are a constant escalation of incredulous "you really don't know what you're asking".
- Location
- Bowling Green
[X] Ask yet more questions.
-[X]Whats with the ants?
-[X] What exactly is an Arcane?
I kind of want to do the shared possession thing mainly because I want to see Melia react to her commentary, and see what her reactions are to Melia's travels.
-[X]Whats with the ants?
-[X] What exactly is an Arcane?
I kind of want to do the shared possession thing mainly because I want to see Melia react to her commentary, and see what her reactions are to Melia's travels.
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Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
I think I'm tempted, as long as she's not lying then this seems like she could be fun to have along for the ride.
The only thing I would want to throw in is to see if we can not include the 'trade control once per moon' bit, and also to ask her if she would be alright with including a clause whereby if we decide we've had enough we can release the contract, letting both of us separate without too much fuss.
The only thing I would want to throw in is to see if we can not include the 'trade control once per moon' bit, and also to ask her if she would be alright with including a clause whereby if we decide we've had enough we can release the contract, letting both of us separate without too much fuss.
Melia isn't desperate? News to me. She should be resigned to her dimension drifting fate at this point, but that doesn't mean she shouldn't want it to stop.
We're gonna get stared at for a full 5 minutes if this gets asked.