Okay, but are you willing to risk a 10-30% chance of death and comparable consequences for our protagonist in exchange? I'm not.
...I'm not entirely sure what part of this results in that? Where in the world are you getting those stats, man?

Also, I am getting into yet another argument over personal threat-analysis stats. After dodging it during the portal stuff. Yay.
 
...I'm not entirely sure what part of this results in that? Where in the world are you getting those stats, man?
Pulled out of my butt, basically. Eyeballing it at 1/2 chance that Desire is non-friendly (as in, will ignore out interests if it suits her), and 1/2 chance that if she is non-friendly she can make us severely regret having anything to do with her. Then added in some slack on top of that.
 
I'm not clever enough to be able to spot holes in someone's arguments like that, which is why my first instinct when put into a situation where it is blatantly clear that I will be screwed over if I don't spot said holes is to leave as quickly as possible. This is clearly not the case for everyone else,
Dealing with beings like this is fun. And we know Alivaril enjoys writing them. He has to get his Kyuubey fix somewhere.

although this reminds me of the time in ignition when we made a deal with QB :V Maybe don't do that this time.
 
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The decision basically boils down to do we trust her to deal honestly with us.
If not we cannot trust anything she has told us and we need to immediately leave and tell whoever imprisoned her that someone is wearing down the prison. No bargaining, no questions, just immediately flee the room calling for whoever is in charge of guarding her. If we do not trust her to be honest we must assume that every word she speaks is a lie, even her answers to our questions.

If we do, then we need to work out what she will give us for her freedom, because if she is being truthful I cannot in good conscience leave her trapped here like this by someone looking to escape a deal.
 
Missed this:
s/evil/a colossal dickwad/, maybe?
I'll take stuff like 'cruel'. What you said is also an option. But that sounded remarkably like the 'all demons are EVIL by default' argument. That is a lead-in to a BAD argument. That leads to sh*t like the Prisoner Dilemma (non-combatants of evil races: should you kill them or take them prisoner?) and related BS. F*ck that type of argument in it's earhole. It's bad enough in D&D, and it's even worse when applied to things without such clear-cut morality scales.
Pulled out of my butt, basically. Eyeballing it at 1/2 chance that Desire is non-friendly (as in, will ignore out interests if it suits her), and 1/2 chance that if she is non-friendly she can make us severely regret having anything to do with her. Then added in some slack on top of that.
That's...incredibly simplistic. Like, to the point of uselessness. 'Ignoring our interests if it suits her' for example, is so unspecific as to be pretty worthless.

Honestly, it's best to assume she'll follow her own interests. Look at what she gains from working with us. Now look at what her attempting to maximize her gain would incline her towards. That's what you should predict she'll roughly do.

You know...the ants are honestly the biggest example of why I think she's telling the truth. Either they're hers, in which case, she doesn't have a reason to totally desperate for escape, like she kinda seems to be. So they're probably someone else's, perhaps even Gaia's, possibly because she considers her High Priestess unworthy of her position.
 
You know...the ants are honestly the biggest example of why I think she's telling the truth. Either they're hers, in which case, she doesn't have a reason to totally desperate for escape, like she kinda seems to be. So they're probably someone else's, perhaps even Gaia's, possibly because she considers her High Priestess unworthy of her position.

We could just ask about the ants, you know. Maybe phrase it as "How'd you manage that thing with the ants?"
 
Okay, cutting this sh*t off immediately. No. This is not a valid argument, in any way, shape, or form. Evil is such a relative and unclear concept that it's practically useless for discussions like this, and use will almost inevitably lead to a morality argument. That is a Bad Idea.

Morality arguments: not even once.

I get where you're coming from, but we are literally dealing with someone who wants us to sell our soul to them and take over our body. That is like, the most classically capital-E Evil thing there is, right up there with taking over and/or destroying the world.

This sort of proves one of my points, though - if I can't even convey why I think something is a monumentally stupid idea without someone declaring my entire argument invalid because I used a Bad Word, I don't have a chance in hell in navigating a magically binding contract without losing one or more vitally important things. Which is why I want to get out of this immediately.

I know I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of convincing you or anyone else, though, which is why I'm going to go back to lurking and just unfollow this quest if we do end up going through with this terrible decision.
 
Well, yeah, but we do get a fair amount in exchange. I mean, immunity to mana-sickness alone is incredibly useful for someone like us. And we'd also get a magical tutor, too. One who will travel with us. Those are pretty freaking good perks, IMO.
They are. They are also things that a bright but extremely ignorant young mage would very predictably want, so it is unsurprising that 'Delight' is emphasizing those possibilities if she wants to get a ride around in our skull for the next fifty years.

Okay, cutting this sh*t off immediately. No. This is not a valid argument, in any way, shape, or form. Evil is such a relative and unclear concept that it's practically useless for discussions like this, and use will almost inevitably lead to a morality argument. That is a Bad Idea.

Morality arguments: not even once.

Pls no. Evil is bad word. Pls no use.
All right, since others' use of the word 'evil' as shorthand is giving you panic attacks, let me try to explain the problem.

Souls are important, in any setting which has them. Control, be it partial or entire, over the mind or soul of another being is an extreme form of power that lends itself to very easy abuse. Beings that habitually deal in such power as their stock in trade are at best highly suspect, for the same reason that 'people smugglers' are.

I mean, you can assure me that this group of mail-order brides, Filipino domestics, or whatever, know exactly what they signed up for and freely agree to it. Maybe it's even true; there are people out there for whom a rational cost-benefit analysis might lead to them being willing to scrub toilets in a First World country at minimum wage for twelve hours a day in order to send the majority of their wages home to Mama or something, because terrible as that sounds it might be objectively better for their family or something. But the overall history of human trafficking and human-trafficking-shaped activities is incredibly ugly, and this is a relevant fact we should bear in mind before deciding whether or not to trust a person who is an avowed trader in international grey-market laborers or some such.

Likewise, the known history of the trade in souls and possessions, throughout history, is rife with examples of exploitation.

Even viewed in reasonably dispassionate terms, it's a very shady business. One with a long, LONG history of abuse involving immortal beings highly skilled in manipulation, maneuvering mortals into causing themselves terrible, potentially irreparable harm. Some of these beings are actively sadistic; others are merely uncaring.

The most favorable plausible interpretation of 'Delight's' actions is that her past business involved signing very long-term indentured servitude contracts in exchange for favors. Realistically, these favors are almost certainly MUCH less subjective effort for her to grant than the labor she extracts in return is for the souls thus 'leased' into indentured servitude.

She may have declared that she is out of this business. But she was in it for a long time, and she quit because of practical considerations, not because of ethical qualms.

Doubting the honesty, integrity, and good faith of such a being in their dealings with a mortal who has obvious vulnerabilities* is very much a case of simple prudence and common sense.

Use of the term 'evil' as a descriptor that might hypothetically apply to 'Delight' is mostly shorthand for the above observations.
___________________________

*(in Melia's case, youth and ignorance, and potentially desire for power)
 
*drums fingers*

we need more info still I think to be able to be sure we are dealing with someone making deals in good faith. That we can make clauses and agreements is good. We can make sure any agreement is sturdy and well clauses. Generally speaking I think Delight here will make an agreement in good faith and follow it, at least to the letter. This is rather like making a deal with a Fae - possible but one must be VERY careful.

But at this point Melia needs to explain her own situation enough so we can get some key things like what an Arcane is and the like clarified.

Though I think we should consider... given Melia's situation what is likely to bring this possible tag along MORE benefits? Helping us or hurting us?

... *figures out how to make a vote*
 
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-[x] Explain that -so far as you know at least- you aren't sick, cursed or particularly desperate. Then explain your circumstances with the dimension hopping, tell her that if she makes a contract with you she'll get to see new and interesting places, but also she might never end up back here, you have yet to see the same dimension come up twice after all.
-[x] That all said, if she's still interested in a contract, you still have a couple questions.
--[x] Does the contract have to run until our death or can you set it up to be able to end earlier? Or renegotiated at set times?
--[x] Given what you just explained, other worlds do have different terms for similar things. What exactly does she mean when talking about an Arcane?
--[x] Also what's up with the ants?
Phrasing and order is bad and it's really not the time to be making offers. Don't do this. Please don't do this.

[X] Literally anything but this vote
 
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[x] Ask what she does with power and stuff. She described a lot of means but no ends. What does she do for fun? What does she want out of life?

I'm very seriously tempted to just vote to
[] Walk away.
 
@Nixeu Your loud concern over use of the word "evil" is kiiiinda leading to more fighting than casual use of the word would. :I


I get where you're coming from, but we are literally dealing with someone who wants us to sell our soul to them and take over our body. That is like, the most classically capital-E Evil thing there is, right up there with taking over and/or destroying the world.

This sort of proves one of my points, though - if I can't even convey why I think something is a monumentally stupid idea without someone declaring my entire argument invalid because I used a Bad Word, I don't have a chance in hell in navigating a magically binding contract without losing one or more vitally important things. Which is why I want to get out of this immediately.

I know I don't stand a snowball's chance in hell of convincing you or anyone else, though, which is why I'm going to go back to lurking and just unfollow this quest if we do end up going through with this terrible decision.

So uh, I think I noticed at least part of the problem with why you feel like you have 0 chance of convincing anybody.

1: Delight isn't actually trying to negotiate for Melia's soul and Melia wouldn't agree to anything even remotely resembling that.

2: There are, in fact, multiple people who agree with you. ^^;

EDIT: Feel free to bail out still, just wanted to try n help you feel a little better. Upon review, I may not have done a very good orb phrasing it and too tired to figure out something better. :oops:
 
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Missed this:

I'll take stuff like 'cruel'. What you said is also an option. But that sounded remarkably like the 'all demons are EVIL by default' argument. That is a lead-in to a BAD argument. That leads to sh*t like the Prisoner Dilemma (non-combatants of evil races: should you kill them or take them prisoner?) and related BS. F*ck that type of argument in it's earhole. It's bad enough in D&D, and it's even worse when applied to things without such clear-cut morality scales.
I think you're being quite absurdly idealistic and myopic here.

Desire is an Astral. Apparently she enjoys inhabiting human bodies, and we are given not so subtle hints that she enjoys occupying human bodies because of their capacity for frankly carnal sensation. It seems incredibly likely that the High Priestess, at least, felt that Desire gave her a bum deal. It is also quite clear that she expects to gain control of the body of anyone she 'shares' with.

It is not hard to see how a body-hopping astral creature that enjoys hedonism and takes over someone's body could lead a person to experiencing some things they'd rather not. All kidding aside, that is a situation ripe for an experience not unlike rape, where Desire enjoys herself and her 'vehicle' experiences something very nasty. (And yes, I will use that word if it's the most applicable). Whether there was an agreement beforehand or not, I feel like getting into a situation with Desire in Mella's head is rather like taking drugs and then going off with a rather skeevy stranger who clearly takes advantage of other people.

It is absolutely true that SV's board rules would probably shield us from the consequences of poor decision-making, but however 'fun' a foolhardy decision could be, I don't want to play a sucker or a victim.

I'm cool with doing her a kindness if we can, but sharing bodies with her is a bad idea.

[X] Simon_Jester
 
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Phrasing and order is bad and it's really not the time to be making offers. Don't do this. Please don't do this.

[X] Literally anything but this vote

Any ideas? I do like the idea of explaining our own situation to a degree so Melia can maybe get some explanations of terms used like Arcane etc.

I really really don't want to walk away from this yet - its a thorny subject but from a narrative stand point having a second character with Melia between worlds would be GREAT. So I'm again trying to balance gameplay and narrative wishes here.
 
[x] Ask what's up the stairs and who she thinks made you sneak in here and who is guarding the stairs.

I would like answers to these questions and don't want to spend five minutes thinking of ways to phrase them.

[x] Ask what she does with power and stuff. She described a lot of means but no ends. What does she do for fun? What does she want out of life?
 
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Narratively, I would prefer having no sidekick over having a sidekick that we have to argue with constantly. Doesn't matter if said sidekick is just trying to convince us to Try New Things, or trying to actively convert us to evil, or trying to get us to accept ever newer and weirder contracts, just doesn't fucking matter, I don't want a sidekick that argues with us.

A bilateral "no intentional harm" contract, as demonstrated by Agneyastra, is a pathetic joke. I fully expect to end up fighting with Delight constantly no matter what we do, even if she means only the best for us. That's just what happens when you try to get advice from an immortal demon. But if she's smart enough to go along with what we want, then, well, there goes our and Melia's agency.
 
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I get where you're coming from, but we are literally dealing with someone who wants us to sell our soul to them and take over our body. That is like, the most classically capital-E Evil thing there is, right up there with taking over and/or destroying the world.
Nope. They don't take soul leases (key word: not sales) anymore, and they don't necessarily want to take over our body, either. Not all the time, anyway. I've seen people do way worse things for a power up.
All right, since others' use of the word 'evil' as shorthand is giving you panic attacks, let me try to explain the problem.
Morality arguments suck balls. I'm less panicked, and more just trying to cut that off at the pass.
The most favorable plausible interpretation of 'Delight's' actions is that her past business involved signing very long-term indentured servitude contracts in exchange for favors. Realistically, these favors are almost certainly MUCH less subjective effort for her to grant than the labor she extracts in return is for the souls thus 'leased' into indentured servitude.
It wouldn't be much of a business, were it otherwise. Maximizing gain and minimizing loss is common in business.
Use of the term 'evil' as a descriptor that might hypothetically apply to 'Delight' is mostly shorthand for the above observations.
It's a terrible shorthand, that can and does start enormous, blazing arguments. Morality debates suck, and I don't want to see them, much less engage in them. There's a difference between 'this seems sketchy' and 'she's EVIL, can't trust her'.

Also, if you have to define what you mean by the short-hand every time you use it, so it doesn't start a blazing dumpster-fire of an argument, it's a bad short-hand.
we need more info still I think to be able to be sure we are dealing with someone making deals in good faith. That we can make clauses and agreements is good. We can make sure any agreement is sturdy and well clauses. Generally speaking I think Delight here will make an agreement in good faith and follow it, at least to the letter. This is rather like making a deal with a Fae - possible but one must be VERY careful.
That's my opinion as well.
@Nixeu Your loud concern over use of the word "evil" is kiiiinda leading to more fighting than casual use of the word would. :I
Given that I was halfway through a sentence in response that would almost certainly have devolved into a morality debate almost immediately, before I realized what I was doing, no, no it hasn't. When I cut that sort of thing off, it's usually because I very nearly fell into it myself.
I think you're being quite absurdly idealistic and myopic here.

Desire is an Astral. Apparently she enjoys inhabiting human bodies, and we are given not so subtle hints that she enjoys occupying human bodies because of their capacity for frankly carnal sensation. It seems incredibly likely that the High Priestess, at least, felt that Desire gave her a bum deal. It is also quite clear that she expects to gain control of the body of anyone she 'shares' with.

It is not hard to see how a body-hopping astral creature that enjoys hedonism and takes over someone's body could lead a person to experiencing some things they'd rather not. All kidding aside, that is a situation ripe for an experience not unlike rape, where Desire enjoys herself and her 'vehicle' experiences something very nasty. (And yes, I will use that word if it's the most applicable). Whether there was an agreement beforehand or not, I feel like getting into a situation with Desire in Mella's head is rather like taking drugs and then going off with a rather skeevy stranger who clearly takes advantage of other people.

It is absolutely true that SV's board rules would probably shield us from the consequences of poor decision-making, but however 'fun' a foolhardy decision could be, I don't want to play a sucker or a victim.

I'm cool with doing her a kindness if we can, but sharing bodies with her is a bad idea.
I'm not entirely sure how that follows at all from what you quoted.

I agree sharing bodies isn't great. On the other hand:
Should we choose to go even further, we would be able to switch control for a previously-agreed period of time every moon,
Switching control isn't mandatory.
 
Missed this:

I'll take stuff like 'cruel'. What you said is also an option. But that sounded remarkably like the 'all demons are EVIL by default' argument. That is a lead-in to a BAD argument. That leads to sh*t like the Prisoner Dilemma (non-combatants of evil races: should you kill them or take them prisoner?) and related BS. F*ck that type of argument in it's earhole. It's bad enough in D&D, and it's even worse when applied to things without such clear-cut morality scales.
[sigh]

Look, there are a LOT of settings in which demons are not a naturally evolved species of being, but where they are literal personifications of concepts, or beings that have sworn eternal allegiance to supernatural ideologies. Concepts and ideologies that are unethical in nearly any valid ethical system, be it deontological or consequentialist.

"Demons tend to be evil, so you should be wary of trusting them even when their offers sound superficially plausible" is not the same order of observation as "orcs tend to be evil so killing baby orcs is okay." It's more like "Don't go to court over a major lawsuit without hiring a lawyer" or "don't go skinny-dipping in the shark tank."

You know...the ants are honestly the biggest example of why I think she's telling the truth. Either they're hers, in which case, she doesn't have a reason to totally desperate for escape, like she kinda seems to be.
She doesn't seem that desperate to me; she answered us casually, is promising things she can almost certainly deliver, and is trying to extract something she seems likely to desire in exchange for favors done for us.

If she were *desperate* she'd be offering us blank-check wishes or something in an attempt to persuade us to agree to unlock the containment.
 
"Don't give me that. You're a beautiful young lady and an Arcane. Really, the bigger concern is making sure nobody gets you pregnant—which, incidentally, I can do for you. I can even make you more attractive if you're interested in that sort of thing; I certainly wouldn't complain."

A few dim dreams and thoughts claw their way toward the surface of your mind. You whimper quietly and bury your face in both hands, trying to refocus your attentions toward something more productive and less embarrassing. This conversation did not go in a direction you expected, nor do you even think you'll be ready for... that... for at least a few more years. Delight's giggling isn't helping.
[X] (Default) Tell Delight you'd really like it if she avoided bringing up the potential of a love life or any related inappropriate acts.

You try to imagine a solid, bright green wall to take your thoughts off Delight's teasing. That turns into grass, you imagine the grass in flames to avoid the first image which comes to mind, and the grassfire somehow turns into cuddling next to a campfire.

You give up. Trying not to think about them is just making things worse.
Like, this right here? Maybe it's all Melia, but it does not strike me that way. Frankly, if it is all Mella, her inability to deal with Delight's suggestions is concerning as hell. If it's not Melia, Delight is a creepy, creepy thingamabob.
 
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"Demons tend to be evil, so you should be wary of trusting them even when their offers sound superficially plausible" is not the same order of observation as "orcs tend to be evil so killing baby orcs is okay." It's more like "Don't go to court over a major lawsuit without hiring a lawyer" or "don't go skinny-dipping in the shark tank."
And he said that, I might have been less reactive. But that sounded like 'orcs are evil, therefore we cannot trust them'. Replace that with any given IRL race/ethnic group of your choice, and run that through your head again. Now understand that I'm a part of an ethnic group who have been stereotyped as untrustworthy for a very long time.

Oddly enough, I really hate generalizing based on sh*t like that. Judge individuals as individuals. Also, even evil people can be worked with, albeit carefully.

That said, I just realized how actually terrible possession or long-term side-kickery would be. This kind of debate, like, nearly every update, constant paranoia. That balance just got tipped completely the f*ck over for me. As in, the balance just fell off the table. That is 20 gallons of 'nope' in a 5 gallon jug.
 
That said, I just realized how actually terrible possession or long-term side-kickery would be. This kind of debate, like, nearly every update, constant paranoia. That balance just got tipped completely the f*ck over for me. As in, the balance just fell off the table. That is 20 gallons of 'nope' in a 5 gallon jug.
Like I said: Either there's a way to completely shut her down, or this is a quest-ender. I don't think that Alivaril would intentionally write a quest-ender like that. On the other hand, this situation is approximately one dumb vote away from having permanently failed to shut her down completely, and at this point I do not trust this quest to not vote dumb.
 
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