Companion Chronicles [Jumpchain/Multicross SI] [Currently visiting: INTERMISSION]

The problem with this sort of thinking is that it only allows an author to write Xanatos pileups and each chapter takes thirty times as long to write. Also, an author is taking on a duty to think through different people's points of view in a way that people normally don't do in daily life.
I never said that Kasey should understand exactly how Lisa thinks on an instinctual level. I said that Kasey, if she stopped to consider it carefully, could have understood the broad strokes of how Lisa thinks and feels about things, and simply didn't because of her own character flaws.

Keep in mind, I was responding to someone who claimed Lisa's mindset was wholly incomprehensible and unknowable to Kasey, which it very clearly is not. Kasey could have understood Lisa if she gave it a good enough try. She simply didn't, which is one of the many character flaws she was excoriated for.
 
Enthusiast, I'm sorry I have to be the one to tell you this, but "I didn't know I was doing something harmful" is not universally exonerating. Even aside from situations where the consensus is that you should have known- and there are a lot of those- there are situations where the harm you do is sufficiently great that your profession of ignorance will not make anyone besides yourself feel better.
If something terrible happens because of ignorance, the solution to keep it from happening again is education.

If something terrible happens because of carelessness or malice, education won't actually change anything, but some sort of corrective action might.

It's not about exonerating the person who did it. The fate of the perpetrator is ultimately irrelevant unless your focus is on administering justice in this one specific case.

It's about looking at this terrible thing that happened and asking "Why did this happen? How might we have prevented it? Is it going to happen again?"

You can argue about how to satisfy justice when people do bad things out of ignorance, but the other function of blame is to figure out what change needs to be made where in order to prevent a repeat of the problem.
 
One thing that struck me about the Worm section when I was rereading was the scene on the school roof where Taylor basically says that this all seems too good to be true. That Kasey just coming out of nowhere and helping, is the sort of thing you see in fiction not reality.
Hmm, let me find it. Here:
She stared at me for a long time before shaking her head again. "Why are you so…" She let the question hang unfinished.

"Persistent?" I guessed.

"Convenient," she corrected irritably. "If I fantasized about having someone swoop in and save me from all this bullshit, it would be someone like you. Pretty much exactly like you. Rich, pretty, smart. Older and wiser. Protective." Taylor's gaze was intense, to the point it felt like I was being dissected. "You are too good to be true. Who are you, that you're such a perfect answer to my problems?"

"I… I'm Kasey." Was I feeling killing intent from Taylor? I took a breath and rallied. "Maybe it's because I'm such a good answer to your problems that I want to help! I'm trying to rebuild my life, you know! This is something I can do. At least one good thing can come out of all that shit."

And yeah the answer works in the moment, but knowing how it turned out I was mentally yelling at the screen for her to say something about the issues that ended up breaking them apart. This could have been the time to lay the seeds for explaining things later. Perhaps it was too early in their friendship to really get into it. But some sort of "Yeah I know more then I have been letting on but played dumb because I didn't want to creep you out" early in their friendship could have saved a lot of grief later.

It would have made the start way more rocky, but being able to work though those issues early would have massively reduced their impact. It's not like there weren't plenty of other people who could have gotten her out of the locker when it happened but didn't.

Of course that would have been a very different story, but with the benefit of hindsight it is easier to see the fault lines.
 
I'm just saying that maybe that was... really the wrong kind of comparison to make, especially in this current news climate and especially considering the rhetoric going around about trans women right now? Especially in a situation where, while Cass was involved in a power imbalance, there was no part of it which was even close in context to the examples of men using their own inherent power to push women into being sexual with them when they do not want to. Because that is, honestly, a bit of a transphobic argument

I apologize for the insensitivity. I picked it because it was the first metaphor that came to mind - Cass's gender identity had nothing to do with it. I was thinking in terms of "how women are victimized by people who don't recognize the harm they are causing" and that really is the most obvious example in my head.

If you have a better comparison to use, I would welcome the suggestion as I am really drawing a blank.

(I tend to use masculine/feminine socialization issues as my go to for social science talking points since that's the issue that has been fucking up my life since I was six and thereby looms large in my thinking.)

So here's a bit of mind-bending.

To a certain extent, the rest of the Undersiders are in the same situation with Lisa.

:jackiechan:

No. Not at all. I'm completely boggled at how you think this is comparable in terms of emotional impact, which is the salient issue.

My whole post went out of it's way to note that this is about socio-relational framing.

Lisa is the point of contact with a mysterious sponsor. She at no point threatens to cut of access to what said sponsor provides to gain leverage over the other undersiders, and they have no real reason to think that she could.

Lisa does not overtly impose on or threaten her teammates.

There is no sense of looming threat over the Undersiders (from the perspective of the undersiders) as a team either in this fic or in canon - not until Coil actually reveals himself.

I mean I can certainly see how the two situations share a similarity of "one person holds information asymmetry advantage over (an)other(s) and can use it to her advantage." But the issue I was talking about is "people feeling threatened and even coerced due to situational context" and that isn't a context that features in the Pre-reveal undersiders team dynamic.

Sure, maybe Brian feels pressured due to the thing with custody over his sister, but AFAICT that particular favor from Coil didn't actually go through Lisa to begin with. Lisa handles passing along coil's direction on an operational basis, but Coil assembled the team directly (it was already recruited when Lisa was introduced to them in her interlude) and any sense of threat from Coil experienced by an undersider wouldn't come through Lisa, it'd be direct from the source.

This parallel does not work at all.


When you speak of men imposing on women, the tragedy is that the guy is still trying to be non-threatening. The fact that he's failing is due to his lack of experience with the differing perspective. Or his being an idiot and not picking up on more explicit social cues. Either or. None of that makes him a dick.

Uhm, no. Unless you are taking the stance that "your feelings being hurt is always your fault," it is being a dick.

Unless we want to toss out social interaction entirely or formalize to an unrealistic and stifling degree, we have to consider familiarizing yourself with the social mores and norms of the social space you choose to enter to be an expected responsibility. Ignoring your social responsibilities is a dick move.

This is point that has actually come up in SV community council/tribunal a number of times, to the tune of:

No it is not on the Mods or Staff or other users to spell out explicit boundaries for you in precise detail (that would be a sisyphean and impractical task anyway). You are expected to be able to do basic social labor in familiarizing yourself with SV's forum culture.

The same principle applies elsewhere. You do not get to push the burden of interpersonal awareness off on other people when the subject is your behavior.

I grant you that (american) society generally socializes along gender lines such that being socialized feminine teaches you to give way socially and "don't make a fuss (unless it's really critically important)" - which means many who are socialized masculine never see all the various minor things they are being yielded to on until they hit something that passes the "make a fuss" threshold - and are therefore ignorant of their micro aggressions.

But like, just because society never taught you to not be a dick doesn't make your behavior Not Dickish. It just means society has faults.

For this reason, I think your analogy with Lisa is flawed: With the car, the subtext of being stuck alone with a guy you don't want to be alone with should be obvious to everyone. Pretty much everyone is socialized to see problems with that.

Speaking from (ample) personal experience this is not true. At all.
 
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Uhm, no. Unless you are taking the stance that "your feelings being hurt is always your fault," it is being a dick.

Unless we want to toss out social interaction entirely or formalize to an unrealistic and stifling degree, we have to consider familiarizing yourself with the social mores and norms of the social space you choose to enter to be an expected responsibility. Ignoring your social responsibilities is a dick move.

I feel like we're not using the same meaning for "dickishness".

You seem to be using "dickishness" as "exhibiting behavior that hurts people", while I use it as "deliberately using hurtful behavior".

The key difference being that the way I see dickishness, a non-dickish person will change their behavior when they realize it is harmful. The dickish person won't care. Or will do it even more out of malice.

The stance I'm taking is that if person1 hurts person2 on accident (and neither had the necessary information to avoid the accident) then nobody is at fault. The fault lies with the situation. The fact that harm was done is tragic, but it wasn't a foreseeable consequence, and nobody decided that the harm would happen, so no dickishness is involved.

I don't really see assigning fault as useful unless someone is being malicious or apathetic to the harm they're causing.

Because what could they have really done? Acted on information they didn't have? Somehow have been more insightful or perceptive than they actually are?

If there are rules that everyone should follow, then everyone needs to be taught them.
If people are supposed to evaluate things on the fly using their best judgement, then people are going to screw up. A lot.
Making an honest mistake shouldn't be grounds for being written off as a dick.

This is point that has actually come up in SV community council/tribunal a number of times, to the tune of:

No it is not on the Mods or Staff or other users to spell out explicit boundaries for you in precise detail (that would be a sisyphean and task anyway). You are expected to be able to do basic social labor in familiarizing yourself with SV's forum culture.

The same principle applies elsewhere. You do not get to push the burden of interpersonal awareness off on other people when the subject is your behavior.
Doesn't SV also generally have a policy of escalating punishments for repeat offenses?
That seems to imply that the issue is a failure or refusal to learn from one's mistakes instead of making those mistakes the first time.

The way you've phrased that seems to also imply that they don't tolerate people with social disorders asking for help, or for clarification.

If you have them I'd actually appreciate some links to those threads, if they are public information, because that sounds interesting and I'd like more context.

Speaking from (ample) personal experience this is not true. At all.
And that is frankly baffling to me.
If I have ever met someone who wouldn't see a problem with it, I've not known it.
 
If something terrible happens because of ignorance, the solution to keep it from happening again is education.
Why do you think @TransientHorizon and I are even posting on this subject?

I feel like we're not using the same meaning for "dickishness".

You seem to be using "dickishness" as "exhibiting behavior that hurts people", while I use it as "deliberately using hurtful behavior".

… (snip) …

Making an honest mistake shouldn't be grounds for being written off as a dick.

Except in the context this conversation came out of, this isn't a first offense or "one" mistake.

It may be the first time the person is getting explicitly called out on their behavior, but due to socialization that pushes caution, self-sacrifice, and "politeness" - by the time it escalates to calling someone out, the victim has almost certainly suffered many many micro (and not-so micro) aggressions. And probably subtly (or not so subtly) signaled "hey stop please" many many times.

I do think that intent matters. The things is that while I consider negligence to be less bad than malice, I (and the law, for that matter) still consider it bad.

If someone is totally ignorant of convention and is shoved into a situation where they don't have a chance to orient themselves socially, then yes, in that case we should call their contextually bad behavior innocent.

However, this is rarely the case. It is more often the case that there was opportunity to learn and absorb context, there were warning signs that should have cautioned, and there was (often willful) avoidance of (what I consider to be a the social obligation of) attempting to build understanding.

If you willfully jump into a situation where you don't have full context and cause problems, then yes, I still call that dickish.

Because part of being a decent human being is taking other people and their differing contexts and worldviews and past histories into account when engaging with them. If you don't invest effort into doing so, that is arguably a malicious choice in-and-of-itself.

We're all a little dickish, in a sense. It's a more a matter of degree - and willingness to (try to) improve.


(Speaking of which I want to again apologize for the insensitive choice of analogy.)
 
Why do you think @TransientHorizon and I are even posting on this subject?
I mean, speaking for myself, I tend to get drawn in to philosophical discussions, just because.
It's interesting; I've always liked philosophy, debate can be fun.
And sometimes I learn new things.

If someone is totally ignorant of convention and is shoved into a situation where they don't have a chance to orient themselves socially, then yes, in that case we should call their contextually bad behavior innocent.

However, this is rarely the case. It is more often the case that there was opportunity to learn and absorb context, there were warning signs that should have cautioned, and there was (often willful) avoidance of (what I consider to be a the social obligation of) attempting to build understanding.

If you willfully jump into a situation where you don't have full context and cause problems, then yes, I still call that dickish.

Because part of being a decent human being is taking other people and their differing contexts and worldviews and past histories into account when engaging with them. If you don't invest effort into doing so, that is arguably a malicious choice in-and-of-itself.

We're all a little dickish, in a sense. It's a more a matter of degree - and willingness to (try to) improve.
I'm able to agree much more with the nuanced perspective you've outlined here.

If someone is ignoring repeated social cues to change their behavior - subtle or explicit - then something is clearly wrong, and it might well be some flavor of maliciousness. There's only so much benefit of the doubt people can be realistically extended.

I also agree that when thrusting oneself into delicate social situations one knows one doesn't have enough context for, ignorance is no excuse.

I merely object to the condensed, more generalized statements that don't extrapolate well to the extremes.
 
I think that this is a difficult topic to approach. But like, I tagged #yesallwomen because I think it's the most obvious metaphor here.

That tag exists because a lot of men tend to view everything through a lens informed by their masculine socialization and have a hard time grasping a feminine viewpoint.

Specifically they have a hard time realizing how differently women are socialized to respond to social engagement with people they don't know well and the inherent feeling of threat generated by a (relatively) unknown guy persistently trying to engage with them and often unthinkingly denying social or physical lines of retreat.

Many men reject this viewpoint (this basically denies that women's perspective is valid, which is not a good start) because they are, under their own threat assessment metrics, "a physically unimposing, nice guy -not threatening" or something in that range.

Except the women they socially and physically impose on have a very different metric - "won't take hints to give me space, blocks my avenues of disengagement, likely physically stronger - conclusion: very threatening, would like to leave now"

And unlike so many women who are socialized to default to minimizing their own concerns to avoid conflict, Lisa does indeed actually express her fear out loud. The red flags are pretty blatantly there in the narrative.

And Kelsey just bull-in-a-China-shops her through everything. "Look how colorful and silly and fun I am, nah I'm not threatening."

"Bitca, please, you told Lisa that the (second?) most Dangerous assassin in the world is your sister and will intervene on your behalf."

Lisa is very much on the same social context as the woman in a locked car with a guy she is increasing frightened by and he won't let her out and the door locks are set to driver-release-only, and hey wait I don't recognize these roads where are we going?

And she's there for months, in narrative.

If she wasn't already a cape, that would be a trigger event right there.
Yeah... I'm sorry but I don't want to touch this with a ten foot pole. Other people have put it much better like OxfordOctopus and Enthusiast#117.
 
@Chloe Sullivan I gotchu fam, tagging in.

I frankly dislike how it ended. I think Kasey was told the single least charitable explanation for her actions, and then just… agreed with Lisa, who was being a huge bitch about it, that she completely told the truth and never in ten years did she find another way of looking at it, other then sort of "I was a teenager at the time"

What Kasey did was accept Lisa's experience, and try to not do the same things in the future. You know. She listened and didn't discount Lisa's feelings.

Lisa treated Kelsey's relationship with her as coercive, because quite frankly, it was. when there's that great a power imbalance, the situation is inherently coercive,

Tempestuous has, actually, backed up this interpretation, Just so we're clear.

There are plenty of ways to frame what she did as, perhaps not as 'ok' but as 'understandable' perhaps even 'understandable compromises'.

Sure, if you want to ignore Lisa's perspective.

a lot of men tend to view everything through a lens informed by their masculine socialization and have a hard time grasping a feminine viewpoint.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is what Vongrak and Enthusiast are doing.

Kasey's antics pushed her to edge of "literally died of sheer fright" territory multiple times.

In case the men reading this needed further justification for the fact that their relationship was coercive and abusive, please revisit this section.

Kasey was, again, still reeling from her first trigger.

Point of order: Cassandra made the decision to 'Undersiders, villain, Brockton Bay' without any chain trauma. She full and well made the decision she would befriend them under false pretenses, even before Kasey was ever a person.

but I never did think at any point Lisa did things that made no sense. I think it was a logical (if very sad) way for her to look at the world

This is a micro-aggression. "Oh, you're not wrong, but you're wrong."

The irony is that if Kasey had been willing to ease up on that power imbalance and let Lisa cold-read her, Lisa might not have been so terrified because she could have understood that Kasey really was a clueless tourist without any ulterior motives beyond thinking Lisa was a Super Cool Person she wanted to associate with (a little creepy but whatever).

And WoG; Kasey did a bad thing, and then felt really bad about it because she didn't see herself as a bad person. Then she spent nine years being the best hero she could be, to affirm that she is not a bad person.
 
I have submitted myself for examination. Analyze away!

[looks at my spoon drawer, sweatdrops]
Ah... maybe next update?

Point of order: Cassandra made the decision to 'Undersiders, villain, Brockton Bay' without any chain trauma. She full and well made the decision she would befriend them under false pretenses, even before Kasey was ever a person.
Sure, if you're talking about the later choice to repeatedly and consistently lie to the Undersiders (though, that gets into the question of if "picking paths" pre-insertion affects your free will after inserting into the Jump.)

...Which is actually quite an interesting philosophical point. If "Kasey's" free will was constrained by "Cass's" picks, then what amount of blame should we assign Kasey-the-character if Cass-the-Companion constrained her free will by choosing "Villain, Undersiders" on the Jumpchain form?

To what degree do "backgrounds" affect your personality and free will versus "drop-ins?" After all, if I remember correctly, Cass observed a newfound appreciation for tea after inserting as Linda.

But anyway, tangents aside, when acknowledging Kasey's trigger trauma, I was referencing Kasey's decision not to go and save Taylor from the locker (whether directly, or by cleaning it out). I was pointing out that --in that similar choice --Kasey's decision-making skills are severely compromised by PTSD and trauma.

And, in that same post, I go on to acknowledge that this context doesn't excuse Kasey's later manipulation of the Undersiders. I'm only observing that Kasey's decision-making was severely affected by her trigger, and that should be taken into account when discussing her decision to not save Taylor.
 
And, in that same post, I go on to acknowledge that this context doesn't excuse Kasey's later manipulation of the Undersiders. I'm only observing that Kasey's decision-making was severely affected by her trigger, and that should be taken into account when discussing her decision to not save Taylor.
That's true, though I would have expected being a recent trigger to push Kasey to head off Taylor's trigger on account of she now has personal experience with how bad it can be.

A mistake I'd be more directly sympathetic toward is if she were concerned that Taylor's trigger was necessary to avoid a Bad End, ignoring the fact that Max would have at least mentioned something if he thought it were important and that she could ask about it.
 
This is a micro-aggression. "Oh, you're not wrong, but you're wrong."
This isn't really an argument or a critique of what I said. Secondly, Lisa is a fictional character. I'm not sure I can subscribe to the idea I could even commit micro-aggressions against a character in a story that I am not in. (And I do have other things I want to say about the whole concept in general but I'll bottle that up for now)

But I didn't even say that. I might have "but" in the sentence however I am critiquing Lisa's actions in the story as those of a fictional character and how it influences my enjoyment of the arc and how reasonable I think it felt as a chain of logic for the characters to go through. I was trying to point out that as much as I find it personally objectionable, I do not think it was out of character in the slightest. It was easy to see how Lisa decided to say those things. I find Kasey reaction more suspect, like it didn't make the most sense, but Lisa's does make sense even if I don't like it.

I also DO think it's a sad way for her to look at the world. I'm not saying it is wrong or right or necessary but it IS sad. The idea that she can only be friends with people she holds the information advantage over is not a happy one.
 
Chapter 126: Work as a Form of Play
AN: Beta-read by Carbohydratos, Did I?, Gaia, Linedoffice, Zephyrosis, and Mizu.

Chapter 126: Work as a Form of Play


Max and I didn't speak until we reached the lounge.

"Well," he said, "you were right."

"About what?"

"They called my bluff."

"Oh."

Max settled onto a couch with a sigh. "So, were you looking for me, or just finding trouble?"

Oh, right. "Looking for you, actually. I was thinking I might move out of the hotel."

He perked up and smiled, seemingly happy for the distraction. "Ah, right. Sure thing. You know what you want your new place to look like?"

"Not… really?" I ventured, feeling more than a little silly for not having an answer ready to go.

"Well, that's the first step," Max said. "Sketch up a floorplan—there are computers in the Workshop with CAD software if you don't want to do it by hand—and I'll get it set up. And don't worry about size or cost or Euclidean geometry when you're planning because none of that matters in here."

I hadn't expected any of those things to matter, but the carefree way he dismissed Euclidean geometry was still a little surreal.

"So there's no 'standard' apartment or anything like that?" I asked.

He shrugged. "I mean, if you just want an apartment, I can make you an apartment, but why stop there? You can have anything."

"That's kind of the problem."

"Ah," Max said, a look of understanding on his face. "Choice paralysis?"

"To put it lightly."

"If you want my advice, figure out what you want to do with the place and work backwards from there."

"What I want to do, huh?"

Now that I thought about it, I wasn't really sure why I'd wanted an apartment at all. I wasn't particularly fond of cooking, and baking had been a social activity more than my own hobby. I could set up a computer or start a personal book collection, but all that would do is remove reasons to spend time anywhere else.

For all I knew, that was why there were so many people on the 'chain I'd never met—they were all burrowed away in their own spaces ninety percent of the time.

"I think the hotel is good enough, actually," I decided.

Max frowned, looking almost disappointed. "I didn't mean to talk you out of it. You want me to set something up as a starter? I could give you a typical one-person apartment and let you add to it whenever you think of something…"

"No, I want to think on it some more. I'll let you know."

"Sure thing."

I said goodbye, offered a little wave, and headed back out into the courtyard.

"Shoulder sprites?" I asked. "Any help here?"

Sure enough, a spirit popped into being in front of my face wearing the same clothes I had on at the moment. "You're lucky you're so introspective," she said. "We're supposed to be used for decision-making, not self-reflection."

"So can you help or not?"

"I'll do my best, but I'm a figment of your imagination, so you're still just talking to yourself. Let's start with the obvious: do you have any complaints about the hotel room itself?"

I gave it a moment's thought as I wandered around the fountain. "I don't think so," I decided. "It's basically perfect, except just barely not perfect enough to become too perfect."

"Do you have any negative associations with anything about the room?"

"I don't think so. It reminds me of vacations as a kid—and I don't think I have any negative associations there."

"But it reminds you of being a kid," the sprite pointed out. "Is that a problem?"

"I don't think so. Gah, I'm saying that a lot. No, it's not a problem."

"It's not a problem in itself. There are a lot of problems with being a kid, aren't there?"

I rolled my eyes. "Yeah, of course there are. Family vacations were the parts where I got to avoid most of them. I could relax all day, didn't have to do chores or homework, had unlimited access to great food…"

"Sounds like an inter-Jump break."

"I don't think that's a coincidence. The Warehouse takes the shape of a luxury hotel for a reason, right?"

"Sure," she agreed. "Let's look at it from the other direction, then. If being a kid on vacation isn't bad, then what's good about being an adult?"

I sat down on the rim of the fountain to consider the question.

"Self-sufficiency, I guess," I replied. "The whole magic room-keeping thing is… it's kinda infantilizing, isn't it? Having magic take care of everything for me is a little like being a kid who can't do that stuff for herself. But 'magic housekeeping' might not be specific to the hotel room, and if it were, I'd just set up my own magic housekeeping anyway because it's not like I want to do that stuff myself. I think I've had my fill of mundane inconveniences for a while."

"So the reason you're confused about wanting to move out of the hotel is because of the contradiction where the things you 'value' about having kept an apartment are also things you don't actually like."

I rocked my head back and forth as I went over her statement.

"Yeah, that sounds right," I concluded. "What am I supposed to do about it?"

The sprite shrugged. "Hey, I did my job. Good luck with that."

———X==X==X———​

"You ever feel weird about having everything done for you?" I asked Karl half an hour later as I watched him and Bob face off over Warhammer yet again.

"You mean in the Warehouse?" he asked.

"Yeah."

He shrugged. "Not really. Bob?"

"It's better than the maids back home," Bob said. "'Course, it doesn't offer the full 'range of service'."

I didn't want to touch that comment with a ten foot pole, so I was relieved Karl objected for me. "Civilized cultures have rules against that shit, you know."

"Ah, fuck off. It was a joke!"

Karl rolled his eyes before returning them to me. "Well, there you have it. Then again, I was retired before I joined, so a world of leisure and hobbies wasn't exactly an outside context problem."

"Yeah, that makes sense," I said. "I think the 'weird feeling' is because I was such a wreck before I joined that being able to keep a house well enough that chores weren't constantly growing into capital-P Problems before I got around to them was a power fantasy for me?"

"Could be." He reached over and smacked Bob upside the head before the latter could make another tasteless joke. "Nothing wrong with that. For some people, just being healthy and pain-free is a fantasy."

"War wounds," Bob said, rubbing his own 'wounded' head.

"Among other things." Karl turned back to me as he continued, "Don't worry about it. You'll have a new set of 'capital-P Problems' next time you import, so take a load off and enjoy the vacation."

That sounded like good advice to me.

The game continued for several minutes as Karl's Astartes began an orderly withdrawal in the face of Bob's usual Eldar army—at least until one of the advancing squads got a little too aggressive, at which point the marines about-faced and began lobbing what were very clearly Holy Hand Grenades into the enemy ranks.

"Hey, here's a random question," I said. "What happens if you bring a mythical object like the Holy Grail into a setting that has its own rules for that artifact?"

"You get a two-fer," Bob said, frowning as he reorganized the center of his advance.

"To be precise," Karl continued, "the thing has whatever properties it normally had in its original world, and whatever properties the thing should have wherever it is."

"S'what I said."

"It might be what you meant, but what you said was, 'You get a two-fer.'"

"So the artifact temporarily gains the local rules for whatever it is?" I clarified.

"Yup," Karl confirmed. "Assuming it's actually supposed to be the same object and not just something someone named after it."

"Applies to materials, too," Bob added. "Dragon blood and stuff like that."

"Mythical creature materials," Karl clarified. "Fantastic metals and whatnot tend not to for some reason."

"Because of the name versus object thing?" I asked.

"Who knows? Ah, Bobby, you crafty bastard! That was bait!"

"Gotcha!" Bob crowed, grinning as his scout bikes cut off the sallying marines. "Looks like you need another lesson on cavalry, old man!"

Karl managed to rescue his stranded marines after another two turns of fighting, but the disruption in his line gave Bob the chance to advance deep into the city before he could regroup. The game remained close all the way to the end, but the Eldar won the day.

———X==X==X———​

The LARP group met in the lounge that evening. After a bit of furniture rearranging so we could all sit around a single table, Erin stood and got us started.

"So," she said, "we took a blind vote on whether to continue last break's campaign this morning, and the results are: two 'for' to twelve 'against'. And yes, I voted, so my thanks to whoever else actually had fun last time."

Oh, dear. That would be me.

"Ah, don't be like that," Sirius told her. "Just cause people want variety doesn't mean they didn't have fun."

"Yeah, but this was practically unanimous."

"Too many fiddly bits," Bob complained.

Kara sent a glare his way. "You didn't even play."

"'Cause there were too many fiddly bits!"

Erin cleared her throat. "In any event, Joe's volunteered to be this month's DM. Joe?"

Joe stood up as she sat down. "Right. Another quick vote—no need to hide it, simple preference: Shadowrun or Cyberpunk? Hands for Shadowrun? Right, that's well over half, motion carries. Hands for Cyberpunk, just to check—Sirius, don't vote twice!"

With our course set for Shadowrun, we split up for a half-hour character-making jam, scattering across the lounge with a dozen copies of the sourcebooks—all bearing an identical set of sharpie-scrawled adjustments, clarifications, and house rules, some of which continued onto entire notepad pages stuffed into the spine—and then reconvened for a trip to what I'd previously dubbed the 'prop cupboard' for costumes. I ignored the clothes entirely and retrieved a wheelchair instead.

"Why would you LARP a paraplegic decker, anyway?" Kara asked me while I tried to get used to wheeling myself around. "I don't care if it's an 'archetype' or whatever; it ruins the 'live-action' part."

I used my 'hologram illusion' spell to create a life-sized video-game-style avatar of myself. "'Cause I can do this."

"New trick?"

"Yeah. Still getting a hang of working in third person. Should be fun."

The avatar stuck her tongue out at Kara, who responded by kicking the wheelchair out from under me and sending me crashing to the floor with a cry of, "Fuck's sake, Thrace!"

———X==X==X———​

We wrapped up our first session only a couple hours later, having divided into teams that would last the first couple 'runs'. Under Joe's guidance, we'd split sixteen people into two groups of five and a group of six. The last time we'd done a more 'traditional' adventuring party-based game, there had been a single party that people rotated into as PCs died, with everyone else filling in NPCs as directed. Joe had something different in mind for this campaign: one group would get to be 'in focus' each session, and everyone else would play OpFor for that run. I was in Kara's group and wasn't sure how I felt about that.

Well, all three groups were running different jobs in the same city, so we were expected to shuffle around a bit over the campaign. Come to think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if Joe ended up having two groups 'collide' during a run. Something to watch out for—in character, even, because the groups had been formed in character over a message board, so we were all aware of each other to some extent.

I left the set—still halfway in transition between 'palace' and 'corporate skyscraper'—stored the wheelchair without incident, and had just stepped into the street when someone called my name. (Well, sort of.)

"Doc!"

"Thrace." I turned around and folded my arms, wondering what Kara was on about now.

"Doc," she repeated, "you know I'm not pushing you around to bully you, right?"

An apology? From Kara? Will wonders never cease.

"What brought this on?" I asked.

"Jenn keeps glaring daggers at me every time I get near you. The frak you tell her, anyway?"

"Nothing."

Her eyes narrowed. "Really."

"You did kick my wheelchair out from under me in full view of everyone."

"You don't frakkin' need it!"

I looked Kara up and down, tapping my foot against the ground as I did.

She raised an eyebrow.

"I don't have a good read on you," I told her. "Half the time you act like I annoy you, half the time you ignore me, and at the rounding error at the edges it seems like you're hanging out with me on purpose."

"Is that a problem?"

"It's confusing is what it is."

Kara huffed and rolled her eyes. "You're a nugget, Doc."

It took me a moment to remember 'nugget' was slang for 'rookie'.

"And?"

"And nothing. Sometimes nuggets are annoying. Sometimes they're just in the way. And sometimes it's nice to have someone who remembers you're hot shit and they're not."

That explained quite a bit, actually: sometimes, Kara wanted to have someone around to be impressed with her, and I best fit the bill. In other words, I'd gotten my response completely wrong: I'd tried to stay out of her way whenever she was hanging around, but what she wanted was my attention. Or admiration, whatever.

Sometimes, anyway.

"I guess," I said, for lack of a better response. "You know, I may be a nugget, but you're not my flight instructor, so maybe lay off a little?"

"Want me to be?"

"Hell yes." My brain caught up a second later. "I mean—"

Kara's slasher smile silenced me. "Too late, nugget! You're mine now!"

———X==X==X———​

"Navcom?"

"Set."

"Sensors?"

"Live."

"Lights?"

"On."

"Suit?"

"Pressure okay."

"O2?"

"Nominal."

"Fuel?"

"Full."

"Straps?"

"Secure."

"Canopy?"

"Closed."

"Right. Spool up the reactor."

Less than an hour after my thoughtless response, Lt. Thrace had me in a simulator cockpit, a cheat-sheet for the main console taped to my flight suit's left arm. This first lesson felt eerily like every flight-sim tutorial I'd ever played, though with the caveat that there were enough buttons, controls, and hardware that I'd have been crazy to skip it. There was a reason I had a cheat sheet, though Kara—sorry, Lt. Thrace—had made it clear I wouldn't have it next time.

I'd known we had a 'Simulator Room', but I'd never gotten around to asking anyone where it was or what it looked like. It was part of the gym, as it happened: a large, ineffably 'gym-like' room full of bulky, unlabeled pods of all shapes and sizes. Four doors in the wall near the entrance were currently roped off with tape reading 'UNDER CONSTRUCTION', though for all I knew that was part of the scenery.

Reactor control is… there. I flipped the switch from 'STNB' (standby) to 'ON', then pulled the lever to the tick mark for launch power. The room outside disappeared, replaced with a Battlestar's launch tube.

"Easy there, nugget. In a real bird, you gotta warm it up slowly if it's been idle for too long."

"How long is too long?"

"Depends on how well the techs are doing their frakkin' job. If you have the time, assume it's been too long, or the ride'll get bumpy."

I raised an eyebrow, though no one could see my face to notice. "Is that a euphemism for 'you'll explode'?"

"You think anyone would fly the frakkin' things if they exploded like that?" Thrace snapped. "Things get bumpy. Thruster output's uneven if the reactor's cold." She didn't stop transmitting, so I could clearly hear her whine 'Is it gonna explode?' to herself in an unflattering (and inexplicably British-accented) imitation of my question.

"…Noted."

"Good. Start up the thrusters."

Flick. Flick. Flick. "Thrusters hot."

"Engage RCS."

"RCS enabled, all ports green."

"Control surface check."

"Hydraulic pressure nominal."

"Good. Now, I'm'a go easy on you, take you through a maintenance Flight Control check before I dump you out in space." The launch tube around me vanished, replaced by the interior of a hangar. "Main stick back to pitch up."

We went through pitch, yaw, roll, and combinations thereof; main thruster control and RCS strafing; DRADIS, IFF, Comms, and Nav. Then the view of the hangar through the simulator canopy changed to a star-field, and we went through it all over again, this time with the simulator squishing, spinning, and shaking me about as though I were actually maneuvering. Then came the practice courses, which were more of the same but with a lot less help provided.

I spent the odd moment between courses wondering if Colonial sims had inertics or if the feature had been added later before it occurred to me that Galactica had artificial gravity; it'd be weird if the same technology wasn't applicable for sims like this.

"Well, credit where credit's due, Doc," Lt. Thrace told me as I climbed out of the cockpit after about an hour of obstacle-course flying. "You don't even look green."

I tapped my hand to my helmet in salute, grinning inside and out at the praise. "I've flown a lot more nauseating routes than that."

"Oh?"

"Worm."

Thrace snorted. "Well, that's too bad for you, then."

Uh oh. "Why?"

"Because you're going back in the sim 'til we top that. Get in and bring her up to combat power."

I climbed back into the simulator, confirmed all the systems were as I'd left them, then eased the lever forward until it hit the plastic guard near the end of its travel. Enough force would bend the plastic out of the way—and in doing so, inform the maintenance team on a real fighter that the reactor needed a full tear-down after someone had red-lined it like an idiot.

"Faster than that, nugget!" Lt. Thrace barked.

"Yes, sir!"

"Now hit the rings, combat speed, and get used to the warning tone because the missiles aren't going to stop until you clear the course. Go!"

———X==X==X———​

In hindsight, Thrace must've skipped twenty or thirty levels on the difficulty slider. Miss a single ring? Mission failed, start over. Go too slow? Missile hits you, start over. Go too fast? G-forces ruin your day, wake up and start over.

The most god-awfully frustrating part came twenty-eight seconds into the course, when I hit a straight shot through six perfectly aligned rings. I lost count of how many times a missile tagged me in that section before I slammed the reactor lever through the guard and punched it down the course to the next bend.

The good news? It worked.

The bad news? Lt. Thrace blew her lid.

"The frak is going through your head, nugget?" she screamed, spittle forming spots on my faceplate. "You think you're flying a frakkin' hot rod?"

I remained at attention beside the simulator, staring straight past her ear as I belted out, "Sir, no, sir!"

"You know what happens to your bird when you break that guard?"

"Sir, yes, sir!"

"Then you are frakkin' stupid, nugget, because you just wrecked sixty thousand tons of hardware because you can't frakking dodge!"

"Sir! Missiles would've wrecked the hardware harder, sir!"

Lt. Thrace's face turned even redder, and I figured I was well and truly 'frakked'.

Then she lost her composure and started laughing, and I just felt confused.

"Frak, Doc," Thrace muttered, shaking her head in exasperation. "Someone feed you that line?"

"No, sir." When she continued laughing, I risked asking, "Why?"

"Because that is the exact same frakkin' thing I told my FI when he ran us through that course!"

Well, it is sort of the obvious response. Though that tidbit did justify one suspicion I'd had.

"There's no way to get through the course without slagging the reactor, is there, sir?"

"Not a frakkin' chance." Kara shook her head again. "Right, you say what I said, you get what I got. Six miles."

"In the flight suit?" The damn thing weighed fifty pounds.

"Yes, in the frakkin' flight suit, now move your ass! If you're not back here in an hour you go again! Go!"

Thank god I'd turned my strength and fitness perks back on for the LARP, or I'd've washed out of whatever this was then and there.

———X==X==X———​

"Six miles in a flight suit," Rita repeated.

"Yeah."

"And you still want to train?"

"I'm good for it."

The fact that she didn't argue with me further was either a show of trust or outright negligence.

We went through our warm-up exercises together, dynamic stretches and light cardio around the perimeter of the room, and then it was up to Rita to select our weapons for the evening. Now that my skill with the naginata was at a level Rita deemed 'likely to keep me alive', she'd hand me a sword or two every couple of days to mix it up. I was good with swords—though my polearm skills were catching up—but I could always be better, and practice made combining my offensive and defensive perks feel more natural, too. Swordsmanship and not getting hit, two great skills that go great together. 'Embracing my inner Dex build,' Zero called it, and I couldn't disagree.

It was downright embarrassing how much I'd been resting on my laurels; doubly so because I'd gone out of my way to create a 'Generic Fantasy RPG' build that was more graceful than 'just poise through everything' before doing exactly that anyway. That was the peril of being handed an amazing defensive ability and equipment, it seemed: complacency. If I could fight myself from a couple Jumps ago, I'd trounce her lazy ass.

It was a nice fantasy to hold onto while Rita was trouncing me. It would be inaccurate to say our spars were one-sided—I even won the occasional bout—but I had no illusions whatsoever that my victories only came because I exceeded whatever level Rita had held herself to that round. Having a sparring partner with a fine-tuned sense of her own difficulty slider was great and all, but it meant I always felt like she'd let me win no matter how hard I worked for it.

I did not even come close to winning the night after my first lesson in the Viper sim. My poor showing could be blamed on my previous 'exercise', but even if that were the case, fighting tired was its own skill to practice. Rita had already demonstrated that she'd stop me if I was building the wrong habits, so at the very least fatigue hadn't reduced my ability to the point of blundering.

———X==X==X———​

After the double-header of Kara and Rita's training regimens, I grabbed my requisite hour of sleep, ate breakfast, and wandered over to the Arcade. Grace and Tedd must've finished their initial exploration, because there was only one other person here.

"Hey, Cass!"

"Hey, Zero."

She was using one of the public consoles rather than ensconced away in the back rooms, which I took as an invitation to watch. "Devil May Cry?"

"Nah, Soulhunter, that dating game I told you about. Devil May Cry looks totally different, how do you even get them confused?"

"I dunno."

Zero went back to focusing on the game for a few seconds as her combo counter climbed into the triple digits.

"I'm just styling on the game at this point," she told me. "I'm gonna hit like twenty times the cut-off for S-rank for this stage."

"You play this a lot?"

"Eh. Enough. One of these days we're gonna find a universe where they made a sequel. What're you here for?"

"Haven't decided yet."

"Then I know exactly what you're doing." Zero quit to menu without bothering to save and dropped the controller onto the floor. "Come on!"

"Do I get a say in this?" I asked as she dragged me away by the arm.

"Nope!"

She finally let go once we were in the PC area and quickly loaded up—

"Why," I said.

"Trust me."

"I don't like dating sims."

"Entertain me, then."

I sighed, sat down in front of the computer, and began to make my way, awkwardly, through Doki Doki Literature Club. Obviously, I choose the girl who might as well have been specifically written to be my 'type'—which was a major source of my discomfort around dating sims in and of itself—and things continued well enough until…

"Knives?" I exclaimed.

"Knives?" Zero repeated.

"Knives!"

"Knives?"

"Knives!"

I pushed the keyboard out of the way so I could bring my head down onto the desk.

"You lost me, Cass," Zero said.

"She has a knife fetish."

"Yes…? Err, sort of… what's the problem?"

"Not a problem," I groaned. "Just the feeling of getting a joke far, far too late. This is a fucking horror game, isn't it?"

"Spoilers!"

"I'm going to take that as a yes." Her lack of commentary and jokes had already raised my suspicions to maximum, so it wasn't a hard guess.

Zero sighed. "Fine, if you're not gonna keep going: Yes, it's a fucking horror game. Sorta riffs on those old 'haunted game cartridge' urban legends. Now what was that joke you mentioned?"

"Remember Penny?"

"From RWBY?"

"No, not from RWBY." I rolled my eyes as I straightened up and spun the chair around. "Penelope, the girl I dated last Jump."

"Oh. Hah, right, her! What about her?"

"We bonded over fantasy literature, and when I brought up also enjoying horror novels, she asked if I had a knife collection." I waved a hand in the vague direction of reality as I complained, "I didn't get the joke!"

"Oh, no! Did you say yes?"

"I have like two-dozen longswords in a box in my room!"

"Oh, Cass," Zero muttered, sounding every bit the long-suffering parent of a perpetually hapless and/or stupid child. How the hell do you get into these situations? was left unsaid.

———X==X==X———​
 
AN: Cass finally gets the joke from the end of Chapter 100. Better late than never?

Fun detail: the checklist the flight instruction scene opens with can be seen attached to the inside of the Viper cockpit in stills from the show. As for the reactor thing, "War Emergency Power" is a real feature on some WWII-era aircraft, and engaging it often involved superficial 'damage' to the controls (such as snapping a restraining wire) that the pilot couldn't later reset themselves because it put enough strain on the engine to necessitate a full tear-down to return the plane to acceptable condition. I don't think any such feature is canon to Galactica, but between its love of Good Old Fashion Dogfights and my own love of random trivia, in it went.
 
"If you want my advice, figure out what you want to do with the place and work backwards from there."

"What I want to do, huh?"

"-And that's how I ended up living in a giant mecha-house."

"Fantastic metals and whatnot tend not to for some reason."

"Because of the name versus object thing?" I asked.


It could also be conflicting properties.

Even if one version has "better" hardness/stiffness/weight/conductivity it would almost certainly be wrong for whatever it's already used for.

"My adamatium boots are too hard!"
 
This isn't really an argument or a critique of what I said.

I think it's not. I can't speak for @redironwolf (not being a mind reader), but my read is that that line you quoted was a critique of *you.* Their point (as I understand it) is that attitude of dismissiveness that you (and @Enthusiast#117 ) were displaying was an example of the sort of micro-aggressions that contribute to the "context of fear" that I was discussing.


Case in Point:

I merely object to the condensed, more generalized statements that don't extrapolate well to the extremes.

This is example of not one but two bits of micro-gaslighting.


The first is the "more generalized" (clearly meant to imply "over-generalized"). My early (first two, I think) posts can only be taken as "condensed, more generalized statements" if you completely ignore the context - they were about a specific set of circumstances, what caused those circumstances, and on whom the responsibility/blame for said circumstances falls.

This is a blame shift. The clear implication is "It's your fault for being too general" - except no, I was talking about a very specific circumstance. I talked about a very specific type of social offense - it was actually the counter-argument to this criticism that generalized to a broad principle of "it's not fair blame people for causing harm out of ignorance - after all, they didn't mean to."

I did, I grant, move to refute this counter argument by using similarly broad language of "ignorance is negligence, not innocence," but I was not the one who moved the discussion to broad philosophical principles.


The second is the sly insinuation of extremism ("to the extremes"), which is nicely worded to potentially suggest two subtle ideas, neither of which are accurate:

1) that my concerns represent a extreme socio-political position/stance/opinion. I would argue that they do not. Taking "social aggression" as a serious issue reflects the concerns of a very large number of people.

2) That the social context that I was discussing are an outlier - that the represent an unusual ("extreme") case. This is also not the case. Micro-aggressions, social blocking (aka what Lizzie's boyfriend did wrong by asking her out at work), and bulling-over social warning signals are a daily (and stressful) occurrence for many, many, people.



"Hey I'm going to further aggress by implying your concerns about social aggressions aren't valid" is certainly a take.


Also I find it hilarious that I am apparently accused of being both "over-general" and "extreme" at the same time. :V
 
You are absolutely correct, @Chloe Sullivan, in everything you said.

I would like to add that in addition to the two micro-aggressions, there is a more classic example of 'moving the goalposts' as you articulated here:
I was not the one who moved the discussion to broad philosophical principles.

Where instead of acknowledging the points, in particular the analysis of Lisa's viewpoint, the discussion was moved into a general philosophical one by other parties.
 
"Yeah, that sounds right," I concluded. "What am I supposed to do about it?"

The sprite shrugged. "Hey, I did my job. Good luck with that."

Even Cass has fun at Cass's expense.

"Navcom?"

"Set."

"Sensors?"

"Live."

"Lights?"

"On."

"Suit?"

"Pressure okay."

"O2?"

"Nominal."

"Fuel?"

"Full."

"Straps?"

"Secure."

"Canopy?"

"Closed."

I rarely see this degree of detail in Scifi. I think the last time I did was... a porn game. Of course it was. >.<

"Oh, no! Did you say yes?"

"I have like two-dozen longswords in a box in my room!"

"Oh, Cass," Zero muttered, sounding every bit the long-suffering parent of a perpetually hapless and/or stupid child. How the hell do you get into these situations? was left unsaid.

Cass, Cass, it's fine. Expected even. Sword collections are perfectly normal for Transbians - or so SV has led me to believe anyway.
 
The second is the sly insinuation of extremism ("to the extremes"), which is nicely worded to potentially suggest two subtle ideas, neither of which are accurate:
Okay, first of all, I meant "extremes" in the mathematical sense, because the school system has irrevocably ingrained math terms into my vocabulary.

If you have a function on a graph, there are two "extremes" when you extrapolate the function: the behavior as X approaches positive infinity, and the behavior as X approaches negative infinity.

It's a metaphor for when we "extrapolate" out a general philosophical principle as we apply it in various walks of life. It's behavior in more specific environments that might be rare or unique is called it's "behavior at the extremes". The phrasing has more to do with referencing how the philosophical principle behaves in what might be called "extremely rare" circumstances - like when X approaches infinity in a function - than any sort of judgement on whether the principle itself is "extreme".

The first is the "more generalized" (clearly meant to imply "over-generalized"). My early (first two, I think) posts can only be taken as "condensed, more generalized statements" if you completely ignore the context - they were about a specific set of circumstances, what caused those circumstances, and on whom the responsibility/blame for said circumstances falls.

On this part, I think my error was more than just my choice of metaphor.

Looking back through the posts, I can see that you weren't actually outright communicating very many of your philosophical principles as statements, so much as using the principles to illustrate various points you were making. I had to infer your principles from your use of them.
So when you made this post -
Why do you think @TransientHorizon and I are even posting on this subject?



Except in the context this conversation came out of, this isn't a first offense or "one" mistake.

It may be the first time the person is getting explicitly called out on their behavior, but due to socialization that pushes caution, self-sacrifice, and "politeness" - by the time it escalates to calling someone out, the victim has almost certainly suffered many many micro (and not-so micro) aggressions. And probably subtly (or not so subtly) signaled "hey stop please" many many times.

I do think that intent matters. The things is that while I consider negligence to be less bad than malice, I (and the law, for that matter) still consider it bad.

If someone is totally ignorant of convention and is shoved into a situation where they don't have a chance to orient themselves socially, then yes, in that case we should call their contextually bad behavior innocent.

However, this is rarely the case. It is more often the case that there was opportunity to learn and absorb context, there were warning signs that should have cautioned, and there was (often willful) avoidance of (what I consider to be a the social obligation of) attempting to build understanding.

If you willfully jump into a situation where you don't have full context and cause problems, then yes, I still call that dickish.

Because part of being a decent human being is taking other people and their differing contexts and worldviews and past histories into account when engaging with them. If you don't invest effort into doing so, that is arguably a malicious choice in-and-of-itself.

We're all a little dickish, in a sense. It's a more a matter of degree - and willingness to (try to) improve.
- and you actually did outline your position more explicitly, I appreciated the extra details and nuance.

So my referencing "generalized statements" was a pretty dumb mistake, because it wasn't actually a case of 'more generalized' and 'less generalized' statements being made. Instead it was the difference between inferring the principle from how it was applied, and the actual principles as they actually are.

If I had to guess, I'd say my brain dredged up the phrasing it did because it intuitively fit the feeling I was trying to communicate, even though it wasn't actually factually accurate. For that, I apologize.

If I could try and rephrase my intent more clearly, what I should have said was something like:

"Before you clarified your position like this, the logic you were using seemed to me to imply you held a different position that I would have objected to on the grounds of it only really working in the most common or general cases. I am glad that your actual position is nuanced enough to handle the more extreme cases gracefully as well."


So yeah. I'm terrible at communicating, and I'm sorry for that. But I feel like describing it as gaslighting was a bit much. That term implies a malicious intent that was entirely lacking.
 
The phrasing has more to do with referencing how the philosophical principle behaves in what might be called "extremely rare" circumstances - like when X approaches infinity in a function - than any sort of judgement on whether the principle itself is "extreme".

This hits on, more or less, the point 1 and point 2 I noted in my post. The issue I have is that you are still saying "extremely rare."

The circumstances are not rare. They are, as I said, daily for many people. Usually they aren't as viscerally traumatic as they were for Lisa, but the same elements of "being/feeling trapped in a position of inferior power by someone who is (often willfully) oblivious to coercive pressure they are imposing and who you cannot expect to get out from under any time soon" are seen in many cases. This is a thing that happens to many people in their own homes. This is not a statistical oddity, it is an intrusive and nigh-inescapable fact of life for a massive number of people. (I am no longer in such a socially coercive situation, but I still often find myself not feeling safe even in my own home. The emotional habits don't go away just because circumstances have changed.)


I grant that "gaslighting" is a bit extreme in terms of word choice for illustrating the point, but well, I don't think it's strictly an inaccurate one. "The thing you are worried about is vanishingly rare and therefore not really important" is classic Downplaying and very close to Dismissal ("the thing you object to isn't real"). Downplaying can be a type of gaslighting behavior when directed at someone with legitimate concerns (or even illegitimate concerns that they have reason to think are legitimate).


That said, it is a bit extreme in the context of this being a forum discussion, so I will refrain from using the word in that context going forward.




EDIT: "The emotional habits don't go away just because circumstances have changed" could well be the tagline for Companion Chronicles.

Part of why I enjoy this series is that it's wonderful to see Cass work through her emotional habits and how they have been shaped by her traumas, and how she is learning to adjust to difference circumstances. Because she can do that now. She's free of certain circumstances and empowered with agency to deal with others more on her terms that she was before.

Yep, this is definitely a (power) fantasy I have.
 
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"The thing you are worried about is vanishingly rare and therefore not really important"
In point of fact, I would have been saying, "The things you aren't worried about may be vanishingly rare, but that doesn't make them irrelevant."

But it turns out you were worried about those things.

I have never tried to claim your perspective was wrong.

I had been trying to ascertain if your perspective was nuanced enough to cover even uncommon situations, like this one:
If someone is totally ignorant of convention and is shoved into a situation where they don't have a chance to orient themselves socially, then yes, in that case we should call their contextually bad behavior innocent.

Edit:
I suppose I haven't been clarifying what situations I refer to when I say "uncommon situations" but I generally mean "uncommon from your perspective", whatever that may be.

Edit2:
"What situations are common" has never been a subject I'm very interested in discussing because it's about facts in the world instead of the way ideas relate to each other logically. You'd need to be an expert with access to a lot more information than I have to make good judgements about "what situations are common".

It's not something I have strong opinions about.

So claiming that I'm trying to make a statement about it feels a little surreal, because that's one of the things I've been endeavoring to avoid doing.

I'm more interested in talking about "does this framework make sense in all cases, or does it fall apart somewhere?", and I feel like that question has been answered to my satisfaction already.
 
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In point of fact, I would have been saying, "The things you aren't worried about may be vanishingly rare, but that doesn't make them irrelevant."

But it turns out you were worried about those things.

I have never tried to claim your perspective was wrong.

I had been trying to ascertain if your perspective was nuanced enough to cover even uncommon situations, like this one:
Okay, first off, I realize now that I may have totally misread your sentence about "extrapolating to the extremes." My bad, let me apologize for that. Sorry. If that wasn't a dismissal of my concerns then, it's not correct to call it gaslighting.

Secondly...

WTF? :jackiechan:


Am I reading this right? Did you seriously just post to correct me that "Oh, nah, my earlier posts weren't about dismissing your concerns, what I was actually doing was deliberately engaging in whataboutism... and this post is to make sure you understand this fact" ?
 
This was a great chapter and it was hilarious to see how Cassandra running her mouth got her into increasingly difficult situations.
 
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