Civilization Quest

What... Do mean by that, I was great men in general just Caesar and Alexander as example. Because The Idea of great people were get shafted by this new historian want get rid of history want said there is no such as great people. When they are clearly great people have walk on the earth.

What did you think on what i just said to have better understand becaue right now because I was supporting side on people like You and I talk about.

Oh, misunderstood you.
Sorry.
 
OOC: This took a while. Sorry to say it, but I'm human too, so I get distracted easily. Nevertheless, I do sincerely hope that some of you write omakes. If I like your work, I might throw you a bone mention your story in the update. It's called collaborative worldbuilding.


Civilization Quest Results.
Soninke Tribe 306 AD

During this year, you have learned that the old tribal saying, "The knowledge that does not exist is good knowledge", is most demonstrably false. Why? Because in certain situations knowledge that you don't have actually gives you knowledge, knowledge that is usually not positive. For example, by the end of the year, you have no knowledge of your scouts' whereabouts, or the official response by the Kagoro to your marriage offer. From these pieces of mystery, you can conclude that your scouts are dead, incapacitated, or otherwise not coming back, and that the unofficial response to your marriage offer to the Kagoro is negative. In other words, your explorations south and your attempt to ally with the Kagoro have both failed.

Life goes on though, and many of your other endeavors are successful. You train camel archers and finally finish the shadow group and teaching the Hooru how to read. You have a feeling that both of the latter new accomplishments will be very useful to you. However, it is always important the keep your reality on the here and now and not the there and later.

The text storage you asked for was completed by the year's end. Making copies for all the texts in time was a bit tight, but some of the newly taught Hooru volunteered to copy them. There was one incident where a man was found altering the copy of the text to suit his purposes, but the problem was swiftly dealt with, although you'd rather not say how. You are sure that it will be useful in recording your people's lives and traditions for future generations.

You also have a new wife, from the Soninke peoples. By the year's end she is pregnant. You won't say much about your first night together, but you will mention that it was…fun.

Your not-so-pure thoughts are interrupted by you bumping into a young man. As soon as you make contact, the man moves out of the way, drops to his knees, and apologizes profusely. You recognize this man, he fought bravely in the battle of Ghana. You actually meant to talk to him after the battle, but other duties demanded your attention, and by the time you had the chance to talk, he had returned to his family.

You ask him, "What is your name?"

The young man gulps, and says, "Hilo, my lord."

"Hilo, you fought bravely at the battle of Ghana. I could use a less...High-ranking person's perspectives on daily life in my domain. How would you like to be one of my advisors?"

The young man is speechless.

"Here is my emblem." You hand him a intricate wood carving of your insignia. "This will allow you to gain access to my inner circle."

Moving on, you think to yourself how lucky you were to be kicked out of your original tribe. At times like these, it is good to be the king.
 
The shadow group will probably be a big help in figuring out what happened to our marriage proposal and scouts. We had to have rolled pretty badly to have received no word at all from them both, so we may want to make that a priority next turn. Don't want a surprise war.

Depending on whether our child survives and what sex it is, we may have an heir, which is both a good thing and a bad thing. The way our societal structure was set up, we can choose an heir by adopting someone else, like that promising general, or by raising our child to the position of heir. I think it may be important what precedent we set here, one for hereditary rule, or one for a more merit based rulership.

Also, I think it's pretty awesome that, right now, our people are probably one of the most socially advanced in the world, and almost definitely the most advanced in Africa. We have a near radical level of social mobility and have just established universal literacy. We still need to establish currency and public education, but we've made some pretty good progress. It'll actually be really cool once we are exposed to the other powers in the world, like Rome.
 
Merit based is better from a competency and societal perspective, but it is a much less stable form of government if the king dies unexpectedly. It would also open up problems of someone thinking that they would be a better King, and then trying to take the throne from the current king.

All that said, the merit based rule is the one I'm leaning towards as well, because it would allow us to, hopefully, pick and choose our successors through the ages. If we could avoid random unexpected death, it would be a rather stable form of government as well.
 
Remember merit based depends on who's assessing the merit. It just ultimately means that the person getting the spot is the best at gaming the evaluation system rather than best for the job.

What we need is an apprenticeship system for positions of authority, make sure every authority figure has multiple designated heirs, who all get the necessary training and development, as well as experience sitting in on the current title holder making decisions.

This way there is a clear line of succession, the candidate knows how to do their job, and we get to assess the candidates over many years.
 
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Remember merit based depends on who's assessing the merit. It just ultimately means that the person getting the spot is the best at gaming the evaluation system rather than best for the job.

What we need is an apprenticeship system for positions of authority, make sure every authority figure has multiple designated heirs, who all get the necessary training and development, as well as experience sitting in on the current title holder making decisions.

This way there is a clear line of succession, the candidate knows how to do their job, and we get to assess the candidates over many years.

That's pretty much what I meant by merit based, just with us assessing the merit. Taking in someone, or raising our son to the position of heir, then training them extensively to rule. The relevant part of our written social structure is here:
Tunkalemu (Princes)
Only they could become king. A king could formally adopt a prince that was not his son as well as pass rule on to his own child, and the first occurred more frequently in the empire as time passed. The selection process for a king was not dictated solely by the king, but public opinion was manipulated to make this seem the case.

I'm not sure multiple heirs is a good idea though. Seems like it would promote conflict and heirs trying to one-up and sabotage competing heirs. It may also muddle the line of succession.
 
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Multiple heirs in that you have a defined order of succession. You-> Heir 1(heir designate)->Heir 2(understudy)

And when sabotage can cost you the position of heir you'd better be clever about it. In case some disaster happens and you lose multiple people at one go, without someone being able to appoint a successor.
 
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What I think you are suggesting is having multiple generations of heirs at all times, which I can support. We'd just have to be very clear about the line of succession, and the consequences for trying to move up in the line.
 
Sort of like military command succession.

At no point in time should there be a contested or absent leader. Regardless of loss of communications or casualties.

If it was at all practical I'd extend the chain all the way down to every responsible and trained adult, but that's not really feasible I think.
 
Glad to see Hilo getting a shout out GM. Gonna have to include him in the omake after this upcoming one.

As for the failure on the marriage proposal with Kagoro...

:D

I so want to blame them for the war losses now-delicious.
 
Yeah, them turning down the marriage, apparently without even bothering to respond, is a pretty good starting point for breeding hostility if we want to conquer the shit out of them. I don't think the original purpose of blaming them is really that valid anymore, since we are fairly popular and there doesn't seem to have been much backlash from the war, but we can use it as an excuse to assimilate them.
 
Yeah, them turning down the marriage, apparently without even bothering to respond, is a pretty good starting point for breeding hostility if we want to conquer the shit out of them. I don't think the original purpose of blaming them is really that valid anymore, since we are fairly popular and there doesn't seem to have been much backlash from the war, but we can use it as an excuse to assimilate them.

It's only been a few years since then though. We truly don't have enough to go to war with them, but maybe we can apply pressure on them some other way. At best, maybe we can make em look like cowards or something. They are going on the shit list though. Rejection without even responding to us is an insult, especially to the people who just allowed you to live life without paying tributes or being subject to raids: us.

They've solidified themselves as grade A pricks in my book.
 
It's only been a few years since then though. We truly don't have enough to go to war with them, but maybe we can apply pressure on them some other way. At best, maybe we can make em look like cowards or something. They are going on the shit list though. Rejection without even responding to us is an insult, especially to the people who just allowed you to live life without paying tributes or being subject to raids: us.

They've solidified themselves as grade A pricks in my book.

I didn't mean it would be enough by itself, just that it would be a starting point. If we are going to go on a war of conquest, which I think we eventually will, it will be better if we can have as many reasons for it as possible to avoid other tribes gaining up on us like we did to the berber, or having it sour our relationships with un-involved tribes.

And yes, I agree that it's a pretty big insult. Our people look up to us a an almost messianic figure, right. Maybe not to that extreme, but pretty close. So maybe we should spread the news of it around, see how our people react to it.
 
Hopefully, if a war does come, will go smoother than the last one.

If the nation does last for even longer than the OTL, I hope its politics and government evolves to something similar to that of Jordan's.
 
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I didn't mean it would be enough by itself, just that it would be a starting point. If we are going to go on a war of conquest, which I think we eventually will, it will be better if we can have as many reasons for it as possible to avoid other tribes gaining up on us like we did to the berber, or having it sour our relationships with un-involved tribes.

And yes, I agree that it's a pretty big insult. Our people look up to us a an almost messianic figure, right. Maybe not to that extreme, but pretty close. So maybe we should spread the news of it around, see how our people react to it.

Agreed.
I'm tempted to call for tribute, but that'd be a really foul move on our part.

By the way, I'm almost done with Omake 8.
I'll send it to you in a conversation soon so the thread doesn't get cluttered.

Hopefully, if a war does come, will go smoother than the last one.

If the nation does last for even longer than the OTL, I hope its politics and government evolves to something similar to that of Jordan's.

Really? Don't know much about Jordan. Could you give me a quick summary of what you mean? I wanna read up on them too, so if you could give some sources, that would be nice.
 
Agreed.
I'm tempted to call for tribute, but that'd be a really foul move on our part.

By the way, I'm almost done with Omake 8.
I'll send it to you in a conversation soon so the thread doesn't get cluttered.



Really? Don't know much about Jordan. Could you give me a quick summary of what you mean? I wanna read up on them too, so if you could give some sources, that would be nice.
Jordan is a unitary parliamentary constitutional monarchy where the monarch still holds quite a bit of power. The monarchy is the Command-in-Chief and Head of State.
 
Public Encyclopedia

Thorkin Cissa, Tales of the Easterner ( Carthage University, 1949)
For a leader and a king, foresight is a resource only the competent have in surplus. So is ruthlessness; if one wishes to exact vengeance, fear, and respect in subjects and enemies alike. Intelligence is a forgone conclusion, as is charisma, and connections.
These are all well and good, but there is one trait that gets less credit than it deserves, one which only the juggernauts of history have been ingenious enough to cultivate, harness, and fine tune beyond the exceptional.

It is simply curiosity.

Curiosity is what led to greek fire, naptha, which effectively led to the eastern roman hegemony among the eastern mediterranean. Curiosity is also what led to the Marion reforms, increasing the lethality of the Roman legions.

Now what exactly did curiosity have to do for Dinga Cissa's reign?

Everything.

Although it was not totally apparent to the king at the time, his curiosity led to the adoption of the Libyan-Berber script, which heralded the first instance of the vast changes the Mande subgroups, primarily the Soninke, would undergo. He could have, of course, ignored it, along with the Berber's presence itself and simply absorbed them into a sea of Soninke without regret or devised his own peoples script from scratch.
Being the man that he was, he chose neither and fostered his curiosity for the intriguing symbols he had stumbled upon.

He acquired the script, which was quite simple in function at the time, and found it to be mostly used for very short messages on rock inscriptions, unfit for the development of a literate society to many modern scholars.

That did not stop it from developing more complexity though, especially with the years the southern Berbers had spent living increasingly sedentary lives as overlords, and the years Dinga devoted to mastering and adapting it for Soninke usage during the post-war period of his rule. His initiative in teach the ruling class, the Hooru, how to read, was instrumental in changing the script's ease of use, standardization of language, record keeping, messages and knowledge of an outside world beyond anything the other Mande groups of their time would have dreamed of.

This was the value of the script Dinga might have thought of after spending years along with his elders understanding and modifying it.

There was of course much more benefit it to it than that though.

The retention of knowledge and access to ideas that had been incubating in the midst of the Berbers near the Mediterranean and Middle East was the spark that eventually accelerated, Saharan, Sahelian and Sub-Saharan Africa's development. It was this advantage that Dinga had unknowingly grasped for his people. It must be understood that this new ability to read and write was a sudden cultural leap forward that was fast compared to what record keeping was before Berber integration with the Soninke was initiated.

This is not to say that the merging of the two peoples was lopsided, for the Mande Soninke did hold on to much of their cultural integrity, but they did gain knowledge of what the world of northern Africa was like at their own pace.

This was especially important since Rome, which was still fairly strong during the 4th century, alongside the far western tribes of Berbers penetrating into the lush Sahelian zones above the Serer, Fula and Jolof tribes gave them immense advantages.

Of course, these final benefits would not immediately come to Dinga's attention through usage of the script, but in fits and bursts, and many times after his reign had long ended, but it would be there. Findings of funeral stones of those with the means, or kings wishing to have a monument dedicated to life, and rich graves and random rock inscriptions of young lovers confessing their love were abundant. What would truly bring an aged Dinga and his successors dividends from their usage of the script would be the refounding, state sponsored exploitation, and protection of the less common rock and artifact inscriptions detailing the most efficient desert routes, oases, trade routes, salt deposits, lush pockets in the desert, and access to the runes of the Garamantes, mineral deposits, and more.

To be more concise, the power-projection, cementing, and diffusion of Ghanaian civilization across Africa was possible because of their historian and archaeologist-geared elites, starting with Dinga Cissa, and their successful integration of northern peoples on their terms.

This would be instrumental in their establishment of relationships with the more powerful Berber tribes that had needed little incentive to move down south from other tribes and away from Roman hegemony, and is also dealt with further in chapter 2, Early Ghana.

Note: Thx in advance, Notmi. Appreciate it.
 
If anybody wants some inspiration for omakes or worldbuilding ideas, here ya go.
I figure the Soninke tribe( soon to be kindom of Ghana ) is getting a little too big to be dealing with small clans/Tribes. We've moved on to the big leagues: Gobbling up the Mande Sub groups AKA larger tribes.

Gonna use this to make an omake about a good antagonist for the Soninke. I think a tiny tribal candidate would be good to go with and the smallest of them would be...the devious Goo Tribes.;)

Gonna have the Omake up later.
Enjoy SV.
MANDE LANGUAGE GROUPS
East Mande
(Dan–Busa)


Southeast (Interacing with Atlantic groups Hausa, Tuareg groups. Most are much, much more small than the Soninke.)
Bisa–Busa
Central West Mande
(Manding–Kpelle)


Jogo languages (Blacksmith specialists. Tiny tribes too. :D)
Manding languages (Some of these Manding language groups are larger than the Soninke in population but luckily for us, there are probably a dozen or so tribes that comprise the larger ones. Might be easier to absorb them individually if that's the case. Divide conquer.;))
Ex: Bambara composed of 14 tribes? Ally with some, instigate some conflicts, or destroy em. Whatever works.

  • Bambara 2x as large as Soninke, maybe more...
  • Bolon Tiny
  • Dyula Slightly larger than us.
  • Jahanka Tiny
  • Kassonke 25% smaller than Soninke
  • Mandinka = 60% of Soninke
  • Maninka = more than 2x of Soninke
    • Kita related to the Kagoro and are 20% the size of Soninke. Wonder if they're plotting with the Kagoro. Hm...;)
  • Marka Already got them. :D
  • Sininkere Very Tiny
Mokole languages (most are much, much more smaller than the Manding. Good for us.)
Southwest Mande
Other Central
  • Jeri Tiny
  • Kono 20% of Soninke pop.
  • Susu Connquered Ghana OTL. They are 50 % smaller than Soninke
  • Vai 10% or more of Soninke pop.
  • Yalunka less than 10% of Soninke
Northwest Mande
(Samogo–Soninke) (Currently the most conquest worthy. They're some of the smallest tribes are us.:D)


Samogo languages
Other Northwest
  • Bobo 35% of Soninke
  • Bozo related to the Soninke more so than most other tribes. Separated recently though. Good group to diplomance.:D
  • Jowulu Tiny Tribe
  • Soninke
  • IC Tribes Maraka
  • IC Tribes Azer
  • IC Tribe Kagoro
 
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Alright. It's time for an apology.

The game isn't dead, but I won't have nearly as much time to run it. As a result, there will be less options for you to take. However, you may choose to make your own options, and I will tell you how plausible that option is.

I'm very sorry it took so long to update.

Civilization Quest Update
Civilization Quest

Soninke 307AD



Decisions: Choose 1 from each category.


Military: The military has recovered greatly since you allowed Berbers to join your military, but you still have a ways to go before you can exceed prewar strength. The military also has lots of problems. In addition to the natural tension that exists whenever two cultures are forced to work together and be like brothers, there is also the matter of death's curse…

Train Horse Archers: Fast archers can be very useful. However, it is important to note that it archers are not always automatically better than horsemen. It all depends on the situation and the resources you have.

Train Horsemen: You have learned how to ride horses, so why not make them an army unit? You note that they don't do well against camels, tire easily, and require a lot of resources for their survival however.

Train Camel Archers: Normally, the practice of Camel riding and archery is a luxury available only to the most upper echelons of society. However, you have suggested that perhaps the training should be made available to veterans of all classes.




Warfare: The Berbers who stole your land so many years ago are now under your control. Your people are tired however, and need to rest. If you really want to, you can choose to send your people to war, but…

Attack a tribe (specify which one): You are in a very dangerous position right now. In order to eliminate your potential rivals, it would be better if you struck first. Of course, some of your allies might not agree with your actions.


Explore (specify which direction): Your life was saved by exploration. The Cisse tribe might be saved by it as well. On the other hand, exploration is dangerous, and very few people seem in the mood to fight right now (You will not be completely undefended if you choose this action).


Stay put: Your losses were huge, and your people are tired. It would be morally wrong as well as foolish to fight right now. Which is not to say that if you were attacked you would not defend yourself. You just wouldn't attack anyone else right now.



Diplomacy: You are currently surrounded by friends, but if you are not careful, they could quickly turn into enemies. The Cisse tribe has long been the envy of the other tribes, and even though you are stronger now, if the other tribes ganged up on you…

Marry a woman from another tribe (Specify which one): Marrying a woman of high status in another tribe would certainly improve relations between your two tribes and the other allied tribes in general. It might not be a popular domestic move though.

Highlight the Kagoro insult: The Kagoro have insulted you greatly by turning their backs on diplomacy. If you highlight this fact, it will increase support for more aggressive actions against them. This option will deteriorate relations between the tribes even further though.

Establish tribute system: Now that you are in control of the most powerful tribe in the region, you can now enrich your people's lives at the cost of your neighbors'. Obviously, this won't make you popular, so think hard before deciding to implement this system.





Domestic: Now that you have conquered the formerly Berber territory, you suddenly have more time and resources available to you. Perhaps some of this time and these resources could be used to better the lives of your people?

Declare Kingdom of Ghana: Now that you have conquered the Berbers and restored the land of the Soninke's ancestors, it would not be seen as inappropriate to declare the kingdom of Ghana. It will certainly increase your prestige in the eyes of the other clans.

Write down your clan laws: The Berbers have occasionally claimed that they were unaware of certain clan customs and laws. In order to remedy this, you want to write down your clan's rules and give them to the few Berbers that can both read and are to be implicitly trusted with such things.








Intrigue: All warfare is based on deception. This thought came to you with the word east and some strange arrangement of syllables such as Son and tsu. Strange. But it holds some weight. How can you look at things from the shadier side of life?


Info gathering: You've got allies now, but how much do you really know of their plans? You could send some of your more… Mischievous clan members to gain some information from your allies under the guise of being another wayward exile like yourself.

Passing the blame: Although it's a bit mean, you could have some of your clansmen travel around and spread rumors about the non-allied clans. That would stir up support for some future conquest down the road, right?



Other:

Marriage : In order to reinforce your leadership, it would be advisable to marry another one of your councilman's daughters. That way, you would be looked at as a powerful and influential individual. Which you are, but an official proclamation of it wouldn't hurt. Please specify whether your new wife shall be Soninke or Berber.

Establish noble dictatorship: You aren't getting any younger, and you fear that with your busy life, you will never have enough time to create heirs. Perhaps the power vacuum after your eventual death could be avoided by having the elders select the next king from the population.

Adopt a child: Once again, you have the opportunity to take a child under your wing and teach him the ways of leadership. However, should you die while he is under your care, there will still be a power vacuum.
 
First of all, glad to see this back @Bobalo18
A few comments and questions.
Didn't we train camel archers last turn? Is that option just to train more?
Did we lose the research category entirely?

As suggested actions:
Could we get an option to drill our military? All of our options are to increase the numbers, and not increase the effectiveness of the soldiers we already have. Maybe train our soldiers on specific maneuvers, like false retreats and such.

Instead of staying put, raiding, or exploring, could we have our soldiers just patrol around our land? Raiding and exploring are not things I want to do when we may be preparing for war, but the staying put option always struck me as wasteful. They shouldn't be just sitting around doing nothing.

For intrigue, I'd like an option to investigate what happened with regards to the Kagoro.

Depending on the answers, I may have more questions or suggestions later.
 
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