- Location
- Austria
This. Thanks for putting it in more concise form than my attempts.
I am sorry, I don't follow how him profiting from mentorship over us would benefit us?
Blood of the Gods: A Fantasy CKII Quest
- Thread starter Cavalier
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
This. Thanks for putting it in more concise form than my attempts.
I am sorry, I don't follow how him profiting from mentorship over us would benefit us?
RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
Our mom is a biased actor and is suspicious/disdainful of about everyone, including our sweet governess and Ipy.
And this is a significant step to attaining their loyalty right now: the dynasty has neglected the forces for generations. This will be a momentous occasion for them.
Getting the only real military force on our side makes it more likely we won't have a civil war as we won't have to oppose Khui and army.
Taking him as mentor makes us more skilled in Martial, giving us more of a chance to meaningfully oppose him. It also does not effect if he can raid our palace with soldiers and attempt to kill us, except that with him as mentor his soldiers would be emotionally compromised and we would also fight them with better skills.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
Also, an appropriate vid:
1. The army is factionally weak.
2. This is because other factions are keeping them weak.
3. This means that Khui's influence in the council must be poor, relatively speaking.
4. A mentorship of the heir would provide an opening to expand his influence, through the heir.
5. This is only possible with a competent ruler that favors the army. (An incompetent ruler would get screwed over like Khui.)
6. Therefore, Khui's best interests are to give his best effort into mentoring us.
Argument:
1. The army is factionally weak.
2. This is because other factions are keeping them weak.
3. This means that Khui's influence in the council must be poor, relatively speaking.
4. A mentorship of the heir would provide an opening to expand his influence, through the heir.
5. This is only possible with a competent ruler that favors the army. (An incompetent ruler would get screwed over like Khui.)
6. Therefore, Khui's best interests are to give his best effort into mentoring us.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I've heard some pretty round and strong criticisms about that video.
Such as this one I found by glancing around:
It's...it's sorta not tbh. And that deserves some elaboration which in turn means I'm gonna have to cobble together a bunch of lessons into a somewhat workable argument and talk about the political mechanics of a setting I'm not intimately familiar with. So, uh, bear with me please.And if I fuck shit up feel free to correct me.
My biggest issue with the video is that it commits the cardinal sin of study and pretty bluntly asserts that there is only one way that shit works. And you should always be suspicious about that. 'Cause that's someone trying to win an argument by pretending there isn't an argument to be had at all. Political Science wouldn't be such a diverse and argumentative field if there was an authoritative truth about how everything really worked. The truth is, like, there are a variety of competing arguments for how states function and how decisions are reached, a fair number that the video doesn't touch on in favor of selling this one particular narrative. And it's not really a new narrative either y'know? It's the "evil people are more efficient" narrative. It's Machiavellian thought-porn that says the hardest men win and that the only really important people are a handful of elites.
Like even at the first hurdle it sort of eats shit then dusts itself off and walks off whistling: there are a lot of reasons that perspectives change in the transition from ruler-to-be to ruler. They can become isolated by the position they hold and have their information filtered through yes-men. The instruments and organs of power like the courts and the legislature might not be as responsive as they would like or might be particularly opaque. The video acknowledges that the throne isn't omnipotent but it explains that away as a function of the throne not having infinite dosh. Which isn't the case. But, like, let me tackle this shit point by point. It'll probably flow better.
Rule One: Get the Key Supporters on your Side
On the face of it this makes intuitive sense and it's not completely wrong in the fundamentals. You need a secure power base to hold office. There are certain people who are critical to exercising your power that you have to sway. The issue comes when the video tries to say that this is all there really is.
But it's, yaknow, not.
What the video seems to mostly be describing is the neo-patrimonial systems that dominated dictatorships like those of Sub-Saharan Africa post-independence. The nation has a few major industries: a principal agricultural export or source of mineral/metal wealth. I control that and distribute the proceeds to my followers. They distribute their share to theirs. I look after my cronies and they look after me. But even that has its roots in some form of institutional legitimacy. The state has a momentum of its own. Its own inertia. Customs and concerns and action exist that provide legitimacy beyond "I have dosh let's be friends".
To explain with a real world example: in those African dictatorships what often occurred was that the first parties to form post-independence had a grossly lopsided position of power. They attracted the educated elites. They gathered most of the popular support. They essentially pulled all the oxygen out of the room and made it hard for loyal oppositions to form and in that vacuum, with no real competitors or contenders for the throne, they crafted systems that further entrenched and reinforced their power. It wasn't some guaranteed outcome and it wasn't something that was built entirely on control of dosh. They couldn't do what they did if they didn't have such popularity.
Similarly institutions and norms themselves have a sort of weight to them that exert a tangible force. "I am the King and thus I am divine" matters to people. In Exalted the Dragonblooded have Great Houses, their names and reputation are linked with but not wholly dependent upon the state of their coffers yeah? The purity and strength of their bloodline is an important facet that doesn't rely purely on dosh as does their military record. These Houses additionally have a say in the government iirc, via a Diet. They have rights that the Scarlet would be very, very unwise to transgress. The Immaculate Faith exists to give additional legitimacy to the reigns and actions of the Dragonblooded and people wholeheartedly buy into it.
And then on top of that is the fact that popular support matters. 5% of a nation can't casually oppress and occupy 95% of it. Not without some consent from the majority. Not without some form of acquiescence from the population. An unpopular ruler who dutifully buys up all the bureaucrats isn't going to have a stable and secure rule. A beloved leader who faces opposition from the nobles still wields power that the nobles have to recognize and account for.
It's not all just economics.
Rule Two: Control the Treasure
It's true that cash covers a multitude of sins and it's equally true that it's hard to run a nation when you're fucking broke. The video brings up rentier states as a thing (and they are a thing, states that derive most of their income from renting out natural resources for developments and thus don't have to give a shit about what their population says) but the situation is more complicated. Rentierism and analogues have seen something of a decline since the Cold War. The US and USSR don't give a shit about funneling millions of dollars in aid to Angola so they can claim to be furthering the cause. Furthermore that kind of thing depends on having some crucial resource (which not all states do) and can make you incredibly sensitive to price fluctuation for that resource. See: Venezuela. Diversification is still often a good idea (Iran and Saudi Arabia are working on that iirc) but that involves more taxes.
And if people are paying taxes they tend to want something out of it.
Which is sorta the big failing of the video I think. There's been a lot (a lot a lot a fucking lot) of revolutions and revolts over unjust taxation. The situation is more complicated when you move out of the modern world but the general gist remains that people don't want to pay something for nothing and keeping your boot on their neck and bleeding them dry is ultimately unsustainable. Abuses provoke backlash (Boudica yo). At some point you have to get them to want to pay into the system. Which means you have to provide them security and infrastructure, which is something the Realm does for its territories iirc?
Their Legions provide a bulwark of defense for the population. They can build roads and larger works. Their Wyld Hunts can manage and disperse pretty fuck-awful supernatural threats. Again 5% can't indefinitely rule without some agreement at a more local level.
Rule Three: Minimize Key Supporters
Just to be blunt this isn't always feasible or advisable. People aren't exactly interchangeable parts that you can swap in and out as needed and organizations themselves often are resistant to sudden, sweeping change. There's more to manage than just having the smallest inner circle you can and I think the video does something of a disservice by explicitly portraying it as the one thing that really matters.
Like honestly, if you want an example for why this kind of approach isn't exactly advisable I'm pretty sure it's exactly what the Solars did yeah?
They thought as long as they retained control of a few key functions of government and had their own personal lethality they were essentially unassailable and could do as they pleased and the people would be glad to bend and lick their boots.
And then the Dragonblooded went "fuck this noise, we get rights too" and knifed them en masse yeah?
(As a side note: I'm still really disappointed that Dragonblooded are just anime-people instead of, like, actually dragon-dudes.)
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- Location
- Austria
Alternatively,
5. This is only possible with getting more influence over young, impressionable ruler and using it to fund army - which she would do anyway.
6. Frame it all as your achievement despite illegitimate half-breed of a foreign witch, gather personal loyalty, proceed until army is loyal to you more than to the pharaoh.
I think my version of what he will do is at the very least as likely as yours and am not changing this position until we have more data on him. Which means that holy hell I am not choosing him as Mentor and will tactical vote for anything which prevents such an idea.
RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
At least he has 50% chance of helping us genuinely?!
I mean, even Neferet and all want something bad to happen to us, so obviouly we must not meaningfully socialise and learn from anyone in the court!
Lets go hide behind mommy's skirts and let her save the day.
Like if you only want to deal with ppl who don't secretly want to fuck you over, she is the only option. And rulership demands you deal with people you don't want to see.
We are actually a better socialite than Khui; how is he gonna own us so totally in manipulation that we are utterly fooled and become an impressionable weak ruler? Eunuch has better social stats than him, surely he will dominate us even worse by your logic.
Falls a bit flat with that army when we have been working with Khui and them for years, doesn't it? Of course, if we don't then it could gather traction...
Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
The whole point (Okay, not all, but a big fraction) of Diplomacy and Intrigue is literally to prevent 6. from occuring.
Besides which, if the army has been defunded bad, Khui likely did not have the Intrigue and Diplomacy scores to counteract such to begin with, so..
Further, him as a mentor could well improve his personal loyalty to us.
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- Location
- Austria
Do we have his stats?
EDIT:
Army underfunded is relic of previous ruler, he may not have had authority to change it...scratch it, he only just made general in this very year, didn't he? How the hell would he change it while being just promising young officer, lol.
Sorry, but this argument is just wrong: we had no opportunity to see how good he is at Diplo/Intrigue.
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Shard
One and Many
- Location
- Malaysia
We don't have anyone's stats but our own, but we can make extrapolations based on what we know. (See above post.)
- Location
- Austria
We can't and I have replied why in the edit to my post above so as to not double-post.
RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
Please. Explain to me how working with this dude and learning from him means that he gets the credit for everything we do. Has our governess got any credit for us socialising with the army even when she taught us socialising?
Is mentorship tutoring or some kind of rep leeching system through which they can steal every accomplishment we do?
We cannot trust Neferet. Why are we learning court etiquette from her? Our mom may have ulterior motives to giving birth to us. Why are we learning magic from her? This "must completely trust banyone to learn the simplest stuff from them" attitude is very silly.
RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
We haven't seen how good Meryawy is at Martial either; should I assume he has a Khopesh and can swing it like a REAL MAN, butchering armies in his wake?
"assume hypercompetence unless proven otherwise" is baffling. If he had those type of skills, he would have used them more. I will assume he is average human unless he is literally superman or something.
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- Location
- Germany
I know that video, but i am not sure to think about most of the content as many points at least seemed to be ignored. Would like it if you could link some of the criticisms.
Sorry to say it, but if you think he would not make sure that we have some flaws that he can use against us you are quite naive.
Also why would the soldiers be emotionally compromised and if they were why would he send them and not diverent troops that aren´t ?
The thing with the mentorship is that gives him is even more power in the court and a way that would make it easier for him to take control.
I find it funny that people think that Khui won´t fuck us over in the long run and that he doesn´t plan according to that.
So use him as long as we can and when he start to be an problem get rid of him. Do not give him more openings to fuck us over than is needed.
First our aunt and our mother at least want us on the throne. Khui most likely wants that power for himself.
Second we never had much interaction with the army.
We went to one camp one time to speak with Khui before he became a general, but that it we have no other know interactions with the army and the mc.
It is not that i don´t mistrust the other npcs, it is just that from what we know of Khui that he will try to get more power one way or another.
So what does the mentorship we spend a lot of time with him. We try to learn from him, but he also get the chance to manipulate us or set us up for something.
If you think good luck for him don´t forget that we are an 14 years old girl at the moment and we have a certain trait that he can use against us with quite easy.
Through the time spend with us he get more power in the court and i it is very easy to take credit for something if you what to.
So hmm you guys now get more money how nice of me that i spoke with the queen about that ...
Yes i know that you want an loyal army, but Khui is the wrong person for that.
If you want to learn how to lead armys and how to fight try the guy how leads the Guard of Horus aka our bodyguards.
We want the army loyal to us and to get that we have to get to know the part that we know should be the most loyal parts of the army and then go from there.
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RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
... Neferet derives her power by being regent. Standing in for us when we are not on the throne. She has no reason to want us to actually rule; it would relegate her to old stepmom territory.
Every dude here wants something from us. Khui is not special in that regard. However, we do need the army behind us more than we do other factions. The eunuchs won't be our Vanguard to battle against impious vassals and all.
And sure, Khui will not correcorrect our flaws and all. We aren't here for personality therapy, we are with him to learn how to lead an army. Coincidentally, if he does after teaching is, we are the most qualified dude here to lead the army, who is used to our presence by now.
The bodyguards are not useful for the meat of leading an army, which is what I want out of this. Also, they are separate from main armed forces, and that is where I want us to focus as they are a more powerful and bigger faction.
And we have more interaction with army than other types of factions. Or should we suddenly trust the Bureaucracy over the army despite having no interaction whatsoever with it?
Like if Khui can do that than literally everyone will be able to do it; especially social specced advisors. we will literally never get any credit. I really don't want this quest to be wrecked by unreasonable paranoia.
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RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
...one woman, who is a paranoid, cynical person said this.
Now it becomes even worse paranoia fuel. How will mentoring under him, which means we are closer to him than rest of council mean he focuses on conspiring against his young apprentice rather than those biddies on the council?
Yeah, we'll do favours for him. Give and take is part of the biz. But why is he such a paranoia magnet? Why are people willing to believe the worst of him when his position in court means aligning with us is most effective for him?
Earlier it was he can fuck us up with army. We countered, now it's he can leave holes 8n our personality to exploit Jade Empire style and utterly dominate us socially when we are very social specced; 20 is considered goddamn exceptionally legendary for reference.
What next; he has more money than the throne of Kemet, is an exceptional merchant and magician and made a diesel battleship and Iron Man armour and is destroying our army in his own??
Now I see why people fear SV paranoia.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
You're exaggerating wildly at this point in the debate, but that's not what I actually wanted to point out or talk about.
"Khui, Commander of the Royal Army
Age: Early twenties?
Khui was a captain in the Horus Guard before being appointed to handle the expedition to Upper Kemet's borders. Like most members of the Guard he comes from a noble family, though his Delta-based clan has been obscure in recent generations. Ma'atneferure and your mother told you he was known as an ambitious and competent soldier. The results from his expedition seem to bear out the competent part. He often looks restless or impatient. He is also young and handsome, and remains unmarried for the moment. Gossip says he's in love with a eunuch, though Khui may just be too constantly busy rebuilding the army to take a wife yet."
Can we ask someone about this without it taking an action? Maybe as something specc'd for someone else? Like an 'Investigate' action that involves us asking, "...what sort of rumor is this again?"
"Khui, Commander of the Royal Army
Age: Early twenties?
Khui was a captain in the Horus Guard before being appointed to handle the expedition to Upper Kemet's borders. Like most members of the Guard he comes from a noble family, though his Delta-based clan has been obscure in recent generations. Ma'atneferure and your mother told you he was known as an ambitious and competent soldier. The results from his expedition seem to bear out the competent part. He often looks restless or impatient. He is also young and handsome, and remains unmarried for the moment. Gossip says he's in love with a eunuch, though Khui may just be too constantly busy rebuilding the army to take a wife yet."
Can we ask someone about this without it taking an action? Maybe as something specc'd for someone else? Like an 'Investigate' action that involves us asking, "...what sort of rumor is this again?"
- Location
- Germany
I had completly forgoten that he was in the Horus Guard ...
I still don´t trust him, but it is better then before.
I still won´t vote for him as an mentor.
Edit: Going through the people we have info on i would go for Ipy, the Royal Treasurer as our mentor. He was in the army before and is noted to be a good steward, but also pessimistic about people and gods (which is something that i don´t see as bad).
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- Location
- Southern Virginia
Well, there have been strongly expressed arguments on all sides. I'll leave voting open another couple of hours for last minute votes or arguments. Options will be counted at 8PM EST and then I'll start the update.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
So, what's the tally? I mean, if anyone knows how things are doing ahead of time.
- Location
- Southern Virginia
It looks like Plan Sword and Scepter beats out Plan Firm Foundations 9-7. If anyone wants to do a mechanized recount feel free but that's my hand counted total. Also voting closed, duh.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Ipy would be a good mentor.
RedV
Refuelling
- Location
- Right here
Not in terms of Skills learned.
This is our chance to get one of our stats(the ~17 ones) to 20+ or something. That level of competence and focus is a big thing. I would ultimately prefer to get that instead of taking the safe(?) options.
There are three parameters for judging how attractive a mentor is: how useful their skill is; how useful their patronage is and what is the best for the state.
Look at what we get from Ipy tutoring.
Patronage
He is a man of no noble blood or standing. Associating with him won't solidify our standing at court and he doesn't have forces or support he can give us because in the end he is a state employed official. He also is fairly well off under the current dispensation and has little reason to raise support for us even if he could.
Skill
We aren't the best at Stewardship and if this dude is loyal(because of childhood friendship) and competent, we don't need to waste time getting mediocre Stewardship when we could get really exceptional at something like Martial or Intrigue under someone else. Not very useful unless you really want that stewardship.
State
Look at the problems of Kemet as is. This is the problems of a state that has hyperfocused on infrastructure to the point of neglecting many institutions like the military. We do not really need one more mediocre Stewardship focused dude, especially with the unrest happening right now. We need a warrior queen, someone who can beat the shit out of our recalcitrant vassals.
Look, Ipy is effectively useless as a mentor in terms of skills he gives and how his patronage helps us and just isn't what the state of Kemet needs at the moment.
He is the safe(?) option that gives us literally nothing important to our build or our kingdom. We have just a couple of turns before we leave the prologue, after which gaining stats gets superhard. If we reconcile and lose the Wrathful trait, we have 14 martial to face the upcoming military challenges to our rule. I would prefer to raise it to around 20 because losing a war relevant roll means we could lose our life; in the end, losing a Stewardship roll only destroys several tons of money investment and causes dissatisfaction.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Though I'll note our Stewardship isn't actually mediocre, and at its base is higher than martial. I mean, anything over ten isn't mediocre, or at least should be called something that doesn't make me think of Immortan Joe's disapproval.
Literally our worst stat is our piety, which we might want to shore up next turn with an action to learn about Hathor-Sekmet.
Literally our worst stat is our piety, which we might want to shore up next turn with an action to learn about Hathor-Sekmet.