Behind the Serpent Throne (CK2)

Seriously, what is the pull of the scholar one?
I could ask the same of the 'Master of All and None', personally. For the scholar, I think the 'Whose Realm is A Polished Gem' bit is very important; things may be in better shape there.

I think you're all overlooking the master of shadows one, though; I think there's a lot to be said for knowing that there's one guy to point to for the 'underneath the underneath' stuff.
 
How much of the world is known? Is it a round planet?

It sounds as if the empire has a strong internal focus, are there notable states beyond the borders, or just 'barbarians'?

The Bureaucracy is complex, judging from the entry exams and the possibility of a philosopher ruling.
What's the state of communication, do spirits allow something that beats horseback and boats?
What're literacy rates like?
Is there an associated fee, or perhaps some social requirement like being referred, to take the exams?
For that matter, is there some standard which prevents altering the exams? I'd expect them to be pretty heavily skewed by politics.

How are legal codes kept, are they kept locally, is there one code of law or does it vary by province/city/whatever?


Edit: wanted to comment

And what does "It is the silver gong for a reason, and not the gold" mean?

Silver gong is what they ring when the Emperor calls for his general to report (?)

What's the gold gong, though? Is there a bronze one?
I believe it's a note of superiority. War comes after learning in the empire's (read: Father's) priorities.
 
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[X] A monster is what he is. He had started out a student of the imperial academy, where the spirits were bound and the secret names of the world were compiled, strengthened. Learned. At the age of thirteen he had murdered a city of fifty-thousand people by doing the impossible. Even rumor only hints at how, but the plague that struck down the city at just the right time, and the credit that Father took for it, was but the beginning of a reputation of blood and mystical might that stretched beyond the borders of knowledge into legend. Even the priests hate him, and yet the Empire has grown strong under his rule, despite his apathy for the systems that are said to keep it going. The Emperor walks every day in fear of the man, and even as old as he is, none dare cross him. But then again, none dare love him either.

[X] Imperial Province (Hari-Os): This long thin strip of a province is one of great wealth and power, though his Mother knew little enough of its power. Laying their on the coast, the vast cities competed with the Southlands and fought off the Sea-raiders, and traded and fought off the Water-People, whose acts had gone far beyond merely working with spirits into...into areas where no human should go, according to many religions. Wealth and power congregated into one area, and his Mother had been born in poverty and squalor. At least the Southlands weren't so different from her home, in the ways that mattered?

Almost missed the vote
 
Silver gong is what they ring when the Emperor calls for his general to report (?)

What's the gold gong, though? Is there a bronze one?

Gold is for the birth of a heir, the return of a prince, or for important religious events, etc, etc. Gold for Peace, Silver for War, as it were.

Also, just to, uh, make sure people know this if only because it could be important and so I want to emphasize that for the scholar one 'realm has turned inward' means isolationism and probably also some cultural-purification/centralization stuff as well.

Like, one thing that changes is that each realm is fundamentally somewhat different in the direction it went because of who Father is. Now, they all have the same history up until the point in which quantum Father rises up and in his own way puts his stamp on things.

I'd actually spent some time thinking about Master of All/None and Monster at work, I didn't really see the scholar thing coming, even though I should have. Eh, I was busy...actually, I did have a few thoughts/ideas for that.

Alright, other questions.

How much of the world is known? Is it a round planet?

1) It sounds as if the empire has a strong internal focus, are there notable states beyond the borders, or just 'barbarians'?

The Bureaucracy is complex, judging from the entry exams and the possibility of a philosopher ruling.
What's the state of communication, do spirits allow something that beats horseback and boats?
What're literacy rates like?
Is there an associated fee, or perhaps some social requirement like being referred, to take the exams?
For that matter, is there some standard which prevents altering the exams? I'd expect them to be pretty heavily skewed by politics.

How are legal codes kept, are they kept locally, is there one code of law or does it vary by province/city/whatever?


Edit: wanted to comment




I believe it's a note of superiority. War comes after learning in the empire's (read: Father's) priorities.

1) Well, the various cities noted in the Southlands have sometimes been conquered by the Empire, but are certainly notable by their standards, and the tribes, chiefs, and Kings even beyond that have, at times, overrun the Empire and (eventually) been absorbed. The Empire has at times been highly expansionist and highly isolationist, but it does have an inward focus, partially because it's so large.

That said, various different options for Father themselves determine just how inwardly focused the Empire is. The Master of All/None and the Conqueror are both the most active in terms of 'barbarian policy' as what we would call 'foreign policy' is termed.

2) Spirits can beat horseback sometimes, but are not entirely reliable without being sat upon. Still, in times of great distress, messages can travel rather quickly across the Empire. Rather quickly is still a relative term because it's a large land-mass. If you haven't guessed, in size it's based on pre-modern China, which also can explain the internal focus because damn if that isn't a big area.

3) Overall? Preeety poor. And what literacy there is is of course concentrated in certain classes. It's better than it might be, and what you have to understand is that it varies by area and what you define literacy as. Of course, as a good Csirtan, you know that only being able to write High Csiritan impeccably and read it as well counts as literate, and that every other language might as well be chicken-scratch.:V Well, some know this.

4) There is a fee, but rather more notably, there are different levels and learning and mastering the texts and poems and forms and everything else is something you REALLY need some pretty good teachers or some good books and a lot of time to deal with. So there are multiple levels, and most people don't have the time, money, and intelligence to start...which is part of why money and class matter so much, because yes, if you're a Noble you can usually at least get the First Distinction through pure bribery and fakery, though the higher you go the harder it is, actually, to *totally* fake. Which isn't the same as bullshitting through the exam halfway decently and then finding a way to pressure someone to know that you're important and need it.

That said, despite all of the cynicism I just dropped on you, most people who take it and pass it are probably relatively qualified in the sense that they know the things the test wants them to know, even if they had a ton of legs up just to get to that point, and even if they were studying for the test.

5) There are several different legal codes. The Imperial, the Provincial, and then some lords and some cities have deals for their own codes. On top of that, guilds have their own internal law, the army has its own law and tends to not care about pissant city laws, and many of the classes have carved out exceptions and concessions and grants and the like. Yet ultimately, there is a unified (if so fucking complex it's a major part of many Exams) Imperial Law that gets worked on and revised and worked on some more endlessly forever as politics sways it one way and the other.

*****
Among other things, btw, Mother influences your history together, primary and secondary options for occupation/major things, and opens up opportunities for names (which come with their own special traits), unique assets, and unique minor traits.

Irit is definitely an interesting option (I'm biased and think they all are), though I'm curious why people are choosing it. Reasoning and all.
 
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[X] A monster is what he is. He had started out a student of the imperial academy, where the spirits were bound and the secret names of the world were compiled, strengthened. Learned. At the age of thirteen he had murdered a city of fifty-thousand people by doing the impossible. Even rumor only hints at how, but the plague that struck down the city at just the right time, and the credit that Father took for it, was but the beginning of a reputation of blood and mystical might that stretched beyond the borders of knowledge into legend. Even the priests hate him, and yet the Empire has grown strong under his rule, despite his apathy for the systems that are said to keep it going. The Emperor walks every day in fear of the man, and even as old as he is, none dare cross him. But then again, none dare love him either.

[X] Imperial Province (Yeadalt): The strangest of all of the provinces, home to the greatest number of non-official languages and even cultural groups, it is here that heresies and cults form like mushrooms. They form, they spread, they are harvested or destroyed. It is a province in which the ruling elite, of the Csiritan stock, is far outnumbered by those whose ways are not those of the empire. It is also home to some of the strangest tales, the strangest ways to do magic and live, in all of the twelve provinces, or so rumor goes. Besides the cults, the religions, and the many peoples, here flourish too criminal groups, who band together against all outsiders and cause banditry and chaos.
 
Something I'd like to point out, as a CKII quest, the father's stats likely influence our own. Master of All/None would imply good stats in near everything. Sure, a super high stat in the "best" one would be great...but we don't know which one that is. We don't have enough experience with the setting to pre-determine the god stat for our advancement, so being good at everything is great because it offers us flexibility.
 
Something I'd like to point out, as a CKII quest, the father's stats likely influence our own. Master of All/None would imply good stats in near everything. Sure, a super high stat in the "best" one would be great...but we don't know which one that is. We don't have enough experience with the setting to pre-determine the god stat for our advancement, so being good at everything is great because it offers us flexibility.

On the other hand the main character was raised by his single mother, as opposed to a wealthy two parent family with tutors that CKII assumes so...
 
[X] The son of a Eunuch on Last Night[2], he only escaped his unknown father's fate by cunning, being sent as the assistant to an ill-fated attempt to conquer the Western Marshes of Bueli. There were many rumors as to what happened there, but the end result was that the upstart general in charge of the army died, his forces routed, and Father rallied the remnants and succeeded in forcing a peace, at the tender age of seventeen. The boy general rose and rose, victory following victory, swelling the Empire and protecting its borders. Every year, it seemed, the silver gong rang out thirteen times, and every year Father returned to bow ten times to the Emperor and give great gifts, expressing his humility and submission, all the while smirking as his power grew. Even now, over a decade after he last took the field, he holds sway over the armies, and yet there is rot within the ranks, and many speak of the cruelty and ambitions which drive him always to make an enemy of others. The bureaucracy and the hereditary governors hate him, and yet his power has waxed even into his waning years.

[X] Southlands (Oasis): Mother was a woman of the proud tribes and fragmenting empires of the deserts and the lands beyond the deserts, who practiced the dangerous art of making spirits into tattoos. There was an entire line of Emperors who married into the holy imperial line after having conquered half of the Empire and splintering the rest, who have this blood, and this combination of antagonism and assimilation continues to this day.
 
Changed vote to the Monster one.

[x] Imperial Province (Irit): The land of rivers and of the lake from which the first Emperor was said to have emerged ten-thousand years ago. If one believes the imperial myths and ignores all of the problems with the myths, the Empire has existed for that long, a chain unbroken truly, or at most only in letter but not in spirit. She was a shrine priestess on the holy island in the center of that holiest of lakes, and yet pregnancy is the one thing they could not accept, and far she fled, taking the teachings and secrets with her.
 
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Something I'd like to point out, as a CKII quest, the father's stats likely influence our own. Master of All/None would imply good stats in near everything. Sure, a super high stat in the "best" one would be great...but we don't know which one that is. We don't have enough experience with the setting to pre-determine the god stat for our advancement, so being good at everything is great because it offers us flexibility.
I don't think our Father's stat are likely to influence ours, given that I don't think talent for any of the five stats is really inheritable.
 
On the other hand the main character was raised by his single mother, as opposed to a wealthy two parent family with tutors that CKII assumes so...

I'm going to just say that it's this. Like, the advantages most Fathers provide has less to do with Stats and more to do with other things.

...which, note, means that if you want to be the super-magical character, Monster isn't actually a better choice than any of the others, and might even be worse in one respect.[1]

[1] Would *you* be that interested in mastering magic when your dad has a reputation as a horrific monster of magic and you're living in the Southlands. You know, the Southlands that used to have 17 Cities and now has sixteen thanks to him? Might as well paint a giant target on your back.

Master of All/None has the best 'foreign relations' with the Southlands, by the way. Monster the worse, and everyone else falls somewhere in between.

*****
To be fair, there are some hereditary traits you can get from parents that do matter. Like, Conqueror Father is a very strong, healthy man, and so I'd probably give his son Strong automatically. Good genes and all.

And Master of All is 'Attractive' to say the least, and so his son wouldn't be ugly, that's for sure. So yeah, Attractive trait.
 
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[X] The son of a Eunuch on Last Night[2], he only escaped his unknown father's fate by cunning, being sent as the assistant to an ill-fated attempt to conquer the Western Marshes of Bueli. There were many rumors as to what happened there, but the end result was that the upstart general in charge of the army died, his forces routed, and Father rallied the remnants and succeeded in forcing a peace, at the tender age of seventeen. The boy general rose and rose, victory following victory, swelling the Empire and protecting its borders. Every year, it seemed, the silver gong rang out thirteen times, and every year Father returned to bow ten times to the Emperor and give great gifts, expressing his humility and submission, all the while smirking as his power grew. Even now, over a decade after he last took the field, he holds sway over the armies, and yet there is rot within the ranks, and many speak of the cruelty and ambitions which drive him always to make an enemy of others. The bureaucracy and the hereditary governors hate him, and yet his power has waxed even into his waning years.
[X] Anlan: The only Kingdom of the West, beyond the long plains who has the right to trade back and forth with Csirit, Mother was the daughter of a merchant, and nothing more. Yet from them she inherited the strange looks which might have stirred some passion for the exotic from his Father. But not too exotic, it seemed.

Doubt my chosen location has any chance of winning, but I'm very interested in seeing how it turns out if somehow it does...
 
[X] The son of a Eunuch on Last Night[2], he only escaped his unknown father's fate by cunning, being sent as the assistant to an ill-fated attempt to conquer the Western Marshes of Bueli. There were many rumors as to what happened there, but the end result was that the upstart general in charge of the army died, his forces routed, and Father rallied the remnants and succeeded in forcing a peace, at the tender age of seventeen. The boy general rose and rose, victory following victory, swelling the Empire and protecting its borders. Every year, it seemed, the silver gong rang out thirteen times, and every year Father returned to bow ten times to the Emperor and give great gifts, expressing his humility and submission, all the while smirking as his power grew. Even now, over a decade after he last took the field, he holds sway over the armies, and yet there is rot within the ranks, and many speak of the cruelty and ambitions which drive him always to make an enemy of others. The bureaucracy and the hereditary governors hate him, and yet his power has waxed even into his waning years.
[X] Anlan: The only Kingdom of the West, beyond the long plains who has the right to trade back and forth with Csirit, Mother was the daughter of a merchant, and nothing more. Yet from them she inherited the strange looks which might have stirred some passion for the exotic from his Father. But not too exotic, it seemed.

Doubt my chosen location has any chance of winning, but I'm very interested in seeing how it turns out if somehow it does...

If you'd like to ask questions about Anlan, you can. Could be interesting.
 
Well, I tried for a bit voting for what I wanted most; time for compromise.

[X] The son of a minor scholar of great distinction who passed the difficult exams of Highest Merit, his penmanship was always flawless. He wrote with distinction on all of the topics of the world, and if that is all Father had done, then perhaps the world would be a different place. But he entered into the bureaucracy in his twenties like a knife through a dying man, and when he ousted the Third River school, publically humiliating their policy and leading to the suicide of Go-Asho, he was on his way up. The master of these strange rituals, his penmanship is as perfect and cold as the northern frosts. Every inch of the realm is encompassed in his words, every goat counted. Everyone knows that there is nothing that does not fall under his sway, and yet the army chafes at his actions. For all know that he resents those who go to war. "It is the silver gong for a reason, and not the gold" went one of his most famous axioms. Under him the realm has turned inward, and he has polished it as a collector might polish an antique sword, or as his father's father might have polished his words until there was nothing spare.

[X] Imperial Province (Irit): The land of rivers and of the lake from which the first Emperor was said to have emerged ten-thousand years ago. If one believes the imperial myths and ignores all of the problems with the myths, the Empire has existed for that long, a chain unbroken truly, or at most only in letter but not in spirit. She was a shrine priestess on the holy island in the center of that holiest of lakes, and yet pregnancy is the one thing they could not accept, and far she fled, taking the teachings and secrets with her.
 
[X] What do you call a man who has every talent and no talent? Who can sing and dance, can write a perfect verse of poetry and ride hunting through the woods in the same breath. Who dabbled at everything and excelled at many things? The first Emperor that Father met called him 'favorite' and 'lover' and cherished him close, and when his son rose to power, he was but a tool of Fathers. Father who was everywhere, talking endlessly, fighting endlessly, dueling any who stood in his way or beating them through bureaucratic tricks. There was nothing he couldn't do, except love a bastard. His power is vast and yet as fragile as the first snow, pure and clean in appearance, and yet soon sullied. Many thought he would be a passing man, like many other men and women who had traded love for influence, and yet even now, more than half a century after he had taken power, he held it still. It couldn't be by his looks, and so it must be by his excellence. Yet why would such a man, who had so long declaimed the power of the flesh, had gotten married only by politics and nothing more, now call his son back?

Excited about this one! Monster is an archetype I'm familiar with, same for scholar, but this fellow is downright unusual.
 
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[X] What do you call a man who has every talent and no talent? Who can sing and dance, can write a perfect verse of poetry and ride hunting through the woods in the same breath. Who dabbled at everything and excelled at many things? The first Emperor that Father met called him 'favorite' and 'lover' and cherished him close, and when his son rose to power, he was but a tool of Fathers. Father who was everywhere, talking endlessly, fighting endlessly, dueling any who stood in his way or beating them through bureaucratic tricks. There was nothing he couldn't do, except love a bastard. His power is vast and yet as fragile as the first snow, pure and clean in appearance, and yet soon sullied. Many thought he would be a passing man, like many other men and women who had traded love for influence, and yet even now, more than half a century after he had taken power, he held it still. It couldn't be by his looks, and so it must be by his excellence. Yet why would such a man, who had so long declaimed the power of the flesh, had gotten married only by politics and nothing more, now call his son back?

Pick this one guys! Monster is an archetype I'm familiar with, same for scholar, but this fellow is downright unusual.
Hmm, I don't think it's so unusual a character to see; what is unusual about it is seeing that particular character as the father who ruled an empire for decades.
I certainly think it could be interesting(really I think Laurent will do interesting things with any of the options he presented for us), but if I'm playing a character in a CKII style quest then I don't think it's who I want behind and above me.
 
Hmm, I don't think it's so unusual a character to see; what is unusual about it is seeing that particular character as the father who ruled an empire for decades.
I certainly think it could be interesting(really I think Laurent will do interesting things with any of the options he presented for us), but if I'm playing a character in a CKII style quest then I don't think it's who I want behind and above me.

I also think Laurent will do a good job with each option, so I think the difficulty(-ish thing) will be balanced pretty fairly. I feel like the reward in picking the most interesting one outweighs mechanical concerns.
 
I also think Laurent will do a good job with each option, so I think the difficulty(-ish thing) will be balanced pretty fairly. I feel like the reward in picking the most interesting one outweighs mechanical concerns.
I'm not really talking about mechanical concerns at all. I'm talking about the narrative implications of our choice. Personally, I don't find it fun in quests to root for whatever is most interesting from some third party viewpoint rather than what is both interesting and actually good for the perspective character. I find it far more engaging that way.
 
Hmm, I don't think it's so unusual a character to see; what is unusual about it is seeing that particular character as the father who ruled an empire for decades.
I certainly think it could be interesting(really I think Laurent will do interesting things with any of the options he presented for us), but if I'm playing a character in a CKII style quest then I don't think it's who I want behind and above me.

Though it should be noted that since all of them successfully ruled an empire for a better part of their life, they're all competent in their own way. Like, the ability to play the courtier and court politics is hardly the least useful thing out there. Though, to be honest, while each of the Fathers does track up to a single 'stat' in some ways, the description should definitely hint that they also have a lot of other skills. I mean, the Master of None/All directly states that he's actually a pretty good duelist. Certainly not the best General (that'd be Conqueror), but certainly not the worst ever (That'd be Scholar).

I also think Laurent will do a good job with each option, so I think the difficulty(-ish thing) will be balanced pretty fairly. I feel like the reward in picking the most interesting one outweighs mechanical concerns.

That too, and different Fathers will create different difficulties in different areas.

I mean, Conqueror Father is at the head of an over-expanded empire founded on conquests which then have to be held, developed, and built from.

That's a very different Empire from the ones the others would be running, with very different problems.

I use 'conqueror father' as an example because it's losing badly right now, so I figure I could spill a little about it.

*****
Well, as for what's good for the player/character...well.

I have to go to work, remember there's plenty more time to hash things out and make arguments while I'm gone.
 
I'm not really talking about mechanical concerns at all. I'm talking about the narrative implications of our choice. Personally, I don't find it fun in quests to root for whatever is most interesting from some third party viewpoint rather than what is both interesting and actually good for the perspective character. I find it far more engaging that way.

Oh, huh. Well, I stick by my choice as the most narratively interesting but if you consider yours to be the most narratively interesting then I can't criticize that reasoning for its type, ofc.
What do you think will be more interesting about scholar?
 
Oh, huh. Well, I stick by my choice as the most narratively interesting but if you consider yours to be the most narratively interesting then I can't criticize that reasoning for its type, ofc.
What do you think will be more interesting about scholar?
I think it'll open the game up some and give us more initiative. I think it'll be more clear where we stand with Father and how things are done in the empire.
I feel like Master of All/None, on the other hand, will be something of a loose cannon who we won't really understand until it's too late.

Like, this isn't the guy we're playing; he doesn't necessarily have to be interesting in his own right, he just has to facilitate an interesting story and game experience.
 
I think it'll open the game up some and give us more initiative. I think it'll be more clear where we stand with Father and how things are done in the empire.
I feel like Master of All/None, on the other hand, will be something of a loose cannon who we won't really understand until it's too late.

Like, this isn't the guy we're playing; he doesn't necessarily have to be interesting in his own right, he just has to facilitate an interesting story and game experience.


Uncertainty is the spice of life! Clear rules could also mean less maneuvering room, and I don't think that there's a danger of being screwed over such that there's a "too late". TheLaurent titled a preview of this quest "Behind the Throne: An Original Fantasy Quest of Betrayal, Politics, and Daddy Issues (CK2)" and as such I feel that he's a central enough to to the player character that having him be interesting in his own right facilitates a more interesting experience.
 
[X] The son of a Eunuch on Last Night[2], he only escaped his unknown father's fate by cunning, being sent as the assistant to an ill-fated attempt to conquer the Western Marshes of Bueli. There were many rumors as to what happened there, but the end result was that the upstart general in charge of the army died, his forces routed, and Father rallied the remnants and succeeded in forcing a peace, at the tender age of seventeen. The boy general rose and rose, victory following victory, swelling the Empire and protecting its borders. Every year, it seemed, the silver gong rang out thirteen times, and every year Father returned to bow ten times to the Emperor and give great gifts, expressing his humility and submission, all the while smirking as his power grew. Even now, over a decade after he last took the field, he holds sway over the armies, and yet there is rot within the ranks, and many speak of the cruelty and ambitions which drive him always to make an enemy of others. The bureaucracy and the hereditary governors hate him, and yet his power has waxed even into his waning years.

[X] Anlan: The only Kingdom of the West, beyond the long plains who has the right to trade back and forth with Csirit, Mother was the daughter of a merchant, and nothing more. Yet from them she inherited the strange looks which might have stirred some passion for the exotic from his Father. But not too exotic, it seemed.

Perhaps the character's mother was someone his father met during one of his expeditions to subdue the outlying kingdoms, who often refuse to pay tribute and accept the rightful authority of the Emperor.
 
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I'm torn between Yeadalt and Anlan, myself.
...Dunno how to @-mention The Laurent but *waves arms* presumably there are disadvantages to being a foreigner? If so, what advantages balance that? It seems like it could be a big deal down the road, especially if Monster wins as well.
 
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