Behind the Serpent Throne (CK2)
- Thread starter The Laurent
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] Bitch to Kueli how much our life sucks.
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Sounds like a plan. When in Csirit.... I voted for it in the hope of not creating a potential enemy, but clearly that never mattered. From now on, we'll just stuff every position with our own men.
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Okay, so I don't understand how exactly Ha'dong could make it impossible for us to get a letter to revoke his authority.
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The irony is that if you didn't catch him, he might not have necessarily been some implacable enemy. He was doing what he was doing to cover his tracks. I mean, you'd not be able to trust him and you wouldn't know it, but Kiralo's guess is that he had no larger, treasonous goals than murdering anyone who could tattle, now that Jinhai is lost, and then pretending it never happened.
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Nope. Plus, I mean. He betrayed the Emperor, was plotting with Jinhai all along, etc, etc.
It's just now that the ship has sunk, the rat thinks he can get away with nothing more than a bath.
It's ass-covering 101, with rather more murdering of innocent people who might know something than in modern times, but...
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But how would he even.... He would have needed to.... Urgh, I can feel the purges coming.
Right, right. I'm not sure that immediately going to Kuojah is the best move here. He may have the contacts but he will likely overreact seeing as how this involves a large part of the army. And we all know what he thinks of the army.
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Another thing to remember that's sorta important is the nature of literacy in these times. If he had just a few loyal, or semi-loyal and illiterate men (and thus unaware of what they were doing and not willing to ask questions) stationed to capture and tear up any letters that came to the camps? Obviously, it'd be a lot harder to keep the whole province on lockdown, but a camp? That's easy enough that anyone could do it.
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Oh fuck. Civil war 2: Electric boogaloo here we go. We should bring this to Kuojah, but I dunno who else to tell either. If it comes out, then we're going to have a lot of egg on our face for appointing a traitor into the worst possible position of power.
Edit: who've we got in charge of the army against the Sea-Raiders? I REALLY hope they're more trustworthy, but we're going to need to play this extremely safe to avoid getting defeated in detail. Nightmare scenario is Ha'Dong getting wind of this and beating that army before we can get anywhere near them.
Edit: who've we got in charge of the army against the Sea-Raiders? I REALLY hope they're more trustworthy, but we're going to need to play this extremely safe to avoid getting defeated in detail. Nightmare scenario is Ha'Dong getting wind of this and beating that army before we can get anywhere near them.
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On the other hand, if we play this right, we'd also be the one discovering and capturing the traitor. And Niu is leading the other army. He was about the safest guy we could have picked for that.
And the point is to get Ha'dong taken into custody so that he can't use the army to start a rebellion or something. No Civil War. To do that we need to get a message to the loyal army elements in Basrat so that they can arrest him. Kuojah might have the contacts to get the message through, but.... I'm not sure simply relying on him to solve this is a good idea. With his dislike of the army he's likely to do something stupid, whether it is now or after this crisis is over.
Kiralo's plan is to get the letter to someone who's in Basrat and probably trustworthy, Haolin the courier if I'm right, but if he's at one of the army camps we obviously won't get the message through. If he's not and gets the message, he can probably get himself and the other couriers with him into the camps without much trouble and warn the commanders there. Problem is we don't know how many and which commanders are in Ha'dong's pocket, so there's certainly going to be someone who'll warn him.
And with the nobles in Basrat getting killed, they obviously can't do much so we can only really count on the army. Hmm, although there's certainly something amusing about convincing traitors to 'clean themselves from their taint' by having them take down another traitor.
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Good plans, sounds like. Hopefully Ha'Dong won't realize we know anything. We could use Rassit as secure messengers, but that might tip our hand by implying we don't trust the normal messaging system. Maybe we spread misinformation that we've been unsuccessfully trying to torture information out of Jinhai?
As regards Kuojah, though, I still think we should inform him, even if just to have him start drawing up some plans in case we can't nip this in the bud. It'll hurt our position, but the risk of letting this get out of hand is way too high.
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What authority do we have over Ha'Dong? We can revoke his position as ruler of Basrat, but can we officially take him into custody? @The Laurent, could you clarify?
We might also need to find some evidence for his collaboration with Jinhai, unless we can just torture him until he confesses.
Involving Kuojah is probably a good idea. He should be enthusiastic; he hates Ha'Dong anyway.
We might also need to find some evidence for his collaboration with Jinhai, unless we can just torture him until he confesses.
Involving Kuojah is probably a good idea. He should be enthusiastic; he hates Ha'Dong anyway.
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We don't have any authority, the Envoy is merely (heh) the liaison between the Emperor and the Army. We can't revoke his position, the Emperor does that.
Evidence isn't really needed in the Csiritan court of law, if the Emperor says he's a traitor, he's a traitor.
Yeah, I'm afraid Kuojah might be a bit.... too enthusistic.
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Authority? In your own person? None at all. You can't even revoke his position as military governor of Basrat personally. Everything you have, everything you are, comes from the Emperor, and you are his Envoy to the Council of Generals.
In theory, at least. Like, the theoretically philsophically sound option would be to go to the Emperor with this news, and then he would sagely and with skill and brilliance come to the proper solution, as befits his skill and understanding, about this treason against the state.
Either way, unilateral actions are possible, but... need to be carefully understood.
People who would have influence over Ha'Dong: The Rest of the Council, The Emperor, Kuojah, the bureaucracy in general... the secret spy department that's been mentioned before... though the last one in a more... permanent sort of way, in theory?
(Oh, to clarify his position: Ha'Dong is a temporary military governor until such time as order is restored to the province.)
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We know from personal experience that assassination is a pretty risky move. I can't think of anyone that we trust with the task that we could afford to lose.
We need to get him into the hands of someone who can deliver him back to the capital, or just hold him until we have a death warrant from the Emperor or whoever. The obvious problem is that if we spook him he'll run, or try something even stupider and the situation will get even worse. Maybe we could manufacture some kind of pretext to bring him back to the capital? I don't know how we can get him out of his position of power in Basrat without tipping our hand, and once we do that we might need to start redeploying armies.
[X] Get the information to Kuojah, immediately. The old man has the contacts to counter this, quickly, if it is at all possible
Yeah I'll go with this option because Kuojah has spent decades within the palace and knows all the various organizations and bureacracy's while Kiralo is still quite ignorant. There are ways to solve eliminating a threat without forcing a civil war, and assassinations have been used since ancient times to do so as it can allow you to eliminate a linch pin.
Yeah I'll go with this option because Kuojah has spent decades within the palace and knows all the various organizations and bureacracy's while Kiralo is still quite ignorant. There are ways to solve eliminating a threat without forcing a civil war, and assassinations have been used since ancient times to do so as it can allow you to eliminate a linch pin.
We don't need to know someone to assassinate someone, there is undoubtedly people if not organizations under the Emperor's authority that can do so.
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I like this idea, but getting him to return to court without tipping our hand might be hard. Maybe we could get the Emperor to call for an assembly of the entire Council which every General would be required to attend? I don't know if there's any precedent for that, but if so, we can probably think of some excuse like "the Emperor is planning some kind of great army reform". I don't think this would seem so suspicious that Ha'dong would fear a trap.
That's also a possibility given we were intending to do an army reform anyway, and Ha'Dong being within our army would have known about it.
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It certainly seems believable, I'm just not sure if Ha'Dong would be required to attend in the first place. The Generals wouldn't really have much say in such reforms, except perhaps in backroom deals. In any case.
[X] Getting a letter into Basrat might be doable, but perhaps it would be better to draw Ha'Dong out and arrest him once he reaches the capital. If the Emperor were to call for a general assembly of the Council of Generals in order to "discuss important matters regarding the future of the army", it would be unlikely for Ha'Dong to suspect that it was merely a ruse to get him back to court. His co-conspirators can be dealt with once their leader is gone. Discuss the possibility with Kuojah.