Batman vs. Superman: Killing and Expectations

[Reveen]

I realize now that my main problem with escalating violence with superheroes and with the Snyder films in general was pretty well communicated by Dan Olson.



From a thematic standpoint superheroes are supposed to be idealized pictures of altruism, but we're seeing a steadily creeping influence of a kind of post-9/11 thought the idea that death, destruction, and the violation of civil liberties are not seen as truly bad things to be avoided but the unavoidable cost of doing business, and that both defeats the actual purpose of superheroes and kinda says a lot about how fucked up our cultural perception of violence, authority and heroism has become over the years.

 

[Claudette Savagely]

I realize now that my main problem with escalating violence with superheroes and with the Snyder films in general was pretty well communicated by Dan Olson.



From a thematic standpoint superheroes are supposed to be idealized pictures of altruism, but we're seeing a steadily creeping influence of a kind of post-9/11 thought the idea that death, destruction, and the violation of civil liberties are not seen as truly bad things to be avoided but the unavoidable cost of doing business, and that both defeats the actual purpose of superheroes and kinda says a lot about how fucked up our cultural perception of violence, authority and heroism has become over the years.

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Conversely and as an addendum, the notion that you can stop the bad mans from space or the super robot you made or the whatever with basically no human cost whilst cracking wise (so just trust the handsome vigilantes who're friends with oligarchs and assassins and revenge driven human weapons lol) is the other side of the weird ideological coin, and the reason why most Marvel films fail in their depiction of the super heroic.

The whole edifice smells, frankly.

 

[all fictions]

Litterally no one said the MCU was without fault, but great whataboutism all the same.

 

[Claudette Savagely]

Litterally no one said the MCU was without fault, but great whataboutism all the same.

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I appreciate your effort at starting a my-company-is-better-than-your-company slapfight, but my point was pretty clearly an add-on to @Reveen's rather than some sort of argument against.

Please calm down.

 

[Imrix]

Conversely and as an addendum, the notion that you can stop the bad mans from space or the super robot you made or the whatever with basically no human cost whilst cracking wise (so just trust the handsome vigilantes who're friends with oligarchs and assassins and revenge driven human weapons lol) is the other side of the weird ideological coin, and the reason why most Marvel films fail in their depiction of the super heroic.

The whole edifice smells, frankly.

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I'm sorry, but that's a load of tripe.

The MCU consistently tries to emphasise heroic effort in minimising the human cost of their battles - and portrays the inevitable failure to do so perfectly, as a driving dramatic engine of at least two major films.

Meanwhile the DC films lowball the likely death count by two orders of magnitude, and then make out like nobody should care. For all their grim atmosphere, it's the DCEU that has a blithely naive view of the cost of superhuman violence in populated areas.

 

[all fictions]

I appreciate your effort at starting a my-company-is-better-than-your-company slapfight, but my point was pretty clearly an add-on to @Reveen's rather than some sort of argument against.

Please calm down.

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Simple pattern recognition. I do feel this will only be a retreading of the BvS thread where, whenever someone criticizes the DCEU, you bring up the MCU. I could just copy paste my argument from there here if you want, but that would be walking in circles.

EDIT: that part was uncalled for

 

[TheLordofAwesome]

Without getting into the whole "MCU vs DCEU" argument, on the subject of civilian casualties in the DCEU it would seem Snyder didn't take the criticisms leveled at MoS for its probable civilian death toll well. About three or four times during the Doomsday fight the movie pretty much stops and goes "Don't worry, nobody is here!" It is honestly kind of distracting when I noticed and outright silly at worst.

 

[Claudette Savagely]

Simple pattern recognition. I do feel this will only be a retreading of the BvS thread where, whenever someone criticizes the DCEU, you bring up the MCU. I could just copy paste my argument from there here if you want, but that would be walking in circles.

As for "my company is better than yours", unlike you, I can adress and aknowledge criticisms to the MCU on their own grounds without bringing up the DCEU.

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You're actually brilliant and I love this post for its' display of elephantine memory. Like who are you? I don't even remember talking to you about this!

I'm sorry, but that's a load of tripe.

The MCU consistently tries to emphasise heroic effort in minimising the human cost of their battles - and portrays the inevitable failure to do so perfectly, as a driving dramatic engine of at least two major films.

Meanwhile the DC films lowball the likely death count by two orders of magnitude, and then make out like nobody should care. For all their grim atmosphere, it's the DCEU that has a blithely naive view of the cost of superhuman violence in populated areas.

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Gentlemen, take one hand off the joystick and think for a second here. Has it occurred to you that, as per my last post, I may actually have problems with- and follow me on this one -the depiction of superhuman violence in films from both companies? That I may in fact dislike the products of not one studio, but two, perhaps, dare I say it, evenly?

As in, all of it? The whole shebang? Marvel and DC? Like what part of

The whole edifice smells, frankly.[1]​

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is in any way ambiguous? You're both overthinking this whole thing if you suspect that this is me making a jab at the expense of Brand X so as to defend my secret true love, Brand F, or whatever.

How about I say it again in a different way just to resolve this thing: I think there are problems with the portrayal of superheroic violence in the films made by both companies, and I don't like it, you know?

This isn't meant to deflect criticism from whatever brand one might imagine has my loyalties, or to heap scorn upon the brand one might imagine I dislike, but is actually exactly what it looks like: an observation about the products of both stables, as encapsulated in the bolded quote above.



[1] bolding, text size increase, and underlining added for emphasis

 

[Mister Bad Guy]

Without getting into the whole "MCU vs DCEU" argument, on the subject of civilian casualties in the DCEU it would seem Snyder didn't take the criticisms leveled at MoS for its probable civilian death toll well. About three or four times during the Doomsday fight the movie pretty much stops and goes "Don't worry, nobody is here!" It is honestly kind of distracting when I noticed and outright silly at worst.

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Incidentally, it also kind of makes the fight look even more flaccid. Okay, so in the last movie, like fifty people as strong as Superman had a fight across the skyline of a massive city, but in this one, two and a half people as strong as Superman and one man in a broken bat costume fight it out in an abandoned parking lot! Are you hyped yet?

 

[Mortis Nuntius]

I actually really liked MOS.

Because Superman as Jesus works rather well. He's infinitely more than us but he suffers like we do. Clark's childhood and learning to use his powers was one long grind of uncertainty, pain, isolation and mixed messages. He still came through it and decided to become a hero despite being a bullied kid at school who frankly owes us shit but he's aware of this and decides he still wants to help. Then he goes into a boss fight he doesn't stand much chance of winning and slowly grinds his way to a costly finish that leaves him emotionally exhausted and sets him on the course for BvS. It was pretty good to me tbh.

Superman can be incredibly flat. He's from a stable home, he's got super powers, he's happy by nature and he very rarely gets confronted by real problems. Hence Kryptonite and actual Gods coming into play.

If he wanted to he could solve all the world's problems in a day, in fact the canon reason he doesn't is that he's worried we'd become too stupid and lazy if he helped us too much. Thanks Supes.


MOS is more limited, he's got a God's powers but a mortal's frailty that he has to face. It also reminded me of Captain America or rather how the super serum is basically a buff that helps him help other people. In the Last Avenger* the two defining moments could have been done by literally anyone. Crashing a bomber and jumping on a grenade. No super powers needed there just courage and self sacrifice. Superman goes at that from a different angle.

He's got super powers that make him the only one who can do something even if it must have seemed just as suicidal and fruitless as a human standing up to gangs of bullies alone or jumping on a grenade to save people who despise and belittle him. He's oddly vulnerable and inhumanly different at the same time. Something fresh.

*Because apparently they were working for Hydra since that movie and then were...err fucking up the planet by building their own supervillain or making it a giant target for interdimensional beings?

 

[TheLordofAwesome]

Incidentally, it also kind of makes the fight look even more flaccid. Okay, so in the last movie, like fifty people as strong as Superman had a fight across the skyline of a massive city, but in this one, two and a half people as strong as Superman and one man in a broken bat costume fight it out in an abandoned parking lot! Are you hyped yet?

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It doesn't help that the movie before the fight was a soul-draining slog and the fight is between the heroes and the just introduced Doomsday meaning there is no emotional stakes in the fight. I've said in other sources the fight should have been with Metallo instead of Doomsday, and that the wheelchair guy (who's name I don't even remember) should have been him. I mean, it would fit significantly more in the themes of the movies than Cave Troll Doomsday.

At least with Zod there were emotional stakes. We knew why Zod was fighting Superman, we knew his reasons, why he hated him. Doomsday is just here to shoehorn the Death of Superman plot because DC wants to jet speed their movie universe to catch up to Marvel rather than properly pace these things. I mean, seriously, second movie of their universe and they kill Superman? Why?!

 

[all fictions]

You're actually brilliant and I love this post for its' display of elephantine memory. Like who are you? I don't even remember talking to you about this!

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I might have been talking more to Sufficient Juice tbh, but my posts largely tried to adress the entirety of the other side.

Personally, I just think the DCEU and the MCU have different flaws, but w/e.

Because Superman as Jesus works rather well.

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It didn't, not really. It was really forced imagery though.

 

[mothematics]

Incidentally, it also kind of makes the fight look even more flaccid. Okay, so in the last movie, like fifty people as strong as Superman had a fight across the skyline of a massive city, but in this one, two and a half people as strong as Superman and one man in a broken bat costume fight it out in an abandoned parking lot! Are you hyped yet?

Click to shrink...

That's part of the problem in general with the more you adhere to realistic depictions of the sheer kinetic energy that people throw around at that level. The Kryptonians are really, really well done in the sense that their visuals firmly communicate their power. But because they pay so much lip service to the idea of "This is how they'd really move and have this effect" the holes in the actual conservation of momentum displayed (of which I can point out probably a few hundred in all of the fighting with Zod!) are easier to see. Most viewers definitely won't notice it the first time because of how deftly done the affectation and craft is on a sheer cinematic level. But it really does not hold up on repeat viewings since by then most people are just completely out of the film emotionally and so their minds wander into "waaaaaaaaaaait a minute I learned that's not possible watching Magic School Bus"

 

[Mortis Nuntius]

I might have been talking more to Sufficient Juice tbh, but my posts largely tried to adress the entirety of the other side.

Personally, I just think the DCEU and the MCU have different flaws, but w/e.

It didn't, not really. It was really forced.

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So is the entire concept of superheroes. I mean how come everyone with powers decides that its best to put on a cape and either rob a bank or save a bank? No one ever had any identity or beliefs before that that makes them unique or interact with the world in a different way?

If Superman showed up in a world he would be the closest thing to a God in existence. He would be seen as the messiah or anti-christ because he utterly breaks the setting so to speak. You need a biblical level explanation.

 

[all fictions]

If Superman showed up in a world he would be the closest thing to a God in existence. He would be seen as the messiah or anti-christ because he utterly breaks the setting so to speak. You need a biblical level explanation.

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That's fundamentally misunderstanding what the Bible, or even religions in general, are about. The comparision really works on an extremely superficial level, and assumes humans are kind of dumb.

Superman save people, but that's no different from what cops, firefighters, or soldiers do, except with superpowers. He doesn't preach a message of peace or that there is something after death, he doesn't heal people, he doesn't even express anything about religion. The only thing Superman's existence adds is "aliens exist".

EDIT: also, "so is the entire concept of superheroes" is missing the point because I'm saying Snyder forced shitty symbolism down our throats in the movie.

 

[Mortis Nuntius]

That's fundamentally misunderstanding what the Bible, or even religions in general, are about. The comparision really works on an extremely superficial level, and assumes humans are kind of dumb.

Superman save people, but that's no different from what cops, firefighters, or soldiers do, except with superpowers. He doesn't preach a message of peace or that there is something after death, he doesn't heal people, he doesn't even express anything about religion other than "aliens exist".

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Which is a weakness on the part of writers not in the concept of him changing the world.

Its not dumb to worship someone completely impossible by the laws of physics who shows up without explanation one day and saves the entire world. He works miracles left right and centre and if he spoke about world peace or living a better life or what have you he'd certainly get some sway.

Its stupid to put a God like being in a mundane setting and then expect everything to keep ticking along. Frankly that seems to judge people far more harshly than "dumb" if their reaction to the impossible changing the world forever is "meh basically a cop with a different tool kit".

 

[all fictions]

Which is a weakness on the part of writers not in the concept of him changing the world.

Its not dumb to worship someone completely impossible by the laws of physics who shows up without explanation one day and saves the entire world. He works miracles left right and centre and if he spoke about world peace or living a better life or what have you he'd certainly get some sway.

Its stupid to put a God like being in a mundane setting and then expect everything to keep ticking along. Frankly that seems to judge people far more harshly than "dumb" if their reaction to the impossible changing the world forever is "meh basically a cop with a different tool kit".

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Aside: it's not a weakness of writers when his original creators were Jewish guys. If anything, "Superman as Jesus" is an insulting interpretation to their memories.

Anyway, no, this only works in the case of Thor, who is litterally a god of old coming back. Superman is undermined by the very fact Kryptonians show up thereafter, leaving no doubt as to what his origins are: an alien saving up people. Not only that, his powers are explainable, and are neither magic or "miracles" except to children.

When I say it is dumb, I meant that it is pretty insulting to think humans, especially in the modern age, will just worship whatever that seems slightly out of what is normal. It's not "realistic", so that angle fail to convince me.

 

[Mortis Nuntius]

Aside: it's not a weakness of writers when his original creators were Jewish guys. If anything, "Superman as Jesus" is an insulting interpretation to their memories.

Anyway, no, this only works in the case of Thor, who is litterally a god of old coming back. Superman is undermined by the very fact Kryptonians show up thereafter, leaving no doubt as to what his origins are: an alien saving up people. Not only that, his powers are explainable, and are neither magic or "miracles" except to children.

When I say it is dumb, it is meant that it is pretty insulting to think humans, in the modern age, will just worship whatever that seems slightly out of what is normal.

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I fail to see how. Superman does not have to be "Jesus" as in the Christian messiah but rather as an absurdly out of context entity beyond mortal understanding who loves us enough to give a shit and faces the same struggles we do.

You really seem to be missing the point that we've never had to deal with one being being able to end humanity in half an hour if he wanted to or generate power for the entire human race or help build space colonies or basically uplift or tear down the entire human race as he sees fit and somehow just be seen as a kind of weird normal man.

People make this stuff up, there is obviously a "market" for all powerful saviours and Superman actually is one.

 

[all fictions]

I fail to see how. Superman does not have to be "Jesus" as in the Christian messiah but rather as an absurdly out of context entity beyond mortal understanding who loves us enough to give a shit and faces the same struggles we do.

You really seem to be missing the point that we've never had to deal with one being being able to end humanity in half an hour if he wanted to or generate power for the entire human race or help build space colonies or basically uplift or tear down the entire human race as he sees fit and somehow just be seen as a kind of weird normal man.

People make this stuff up, there is obviously a "market" for all powerful saviours and Superman actually is one.

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No, I just fail to see how unsubtle and forced symbology that only works on a superficial level is supposed to move me, or make me think of a religious figure.

If you had Superman show up before the Digital Age, sure, maybe. As it is, it just doesn't work and make me think that some people just don't know how religious beliefs work.

Superman doesn't scream Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, or even Moses to me. At best, I could compare him to Heracles and other Greek demigods.

 

[Nikkolas]

That's part of the problem in general with the more you adhere to realistic depictions of the sheer kinetic energy that people throw around at that level. The Kryptonians are really, really well done in the sense that their visuals firmly communicate their power. But because they pay so much lip service to the idea of "This is how they'd really move and have this effect" the holes in the actual conservation of momentum displayed (of which I can point out probably a few hundred in all of the fighting with Zod!) are easier to see. Most viewers definitely won't notice it the first time because of how deftly done the affectation and craft is on a sheer cinematic level. But it really does not hold up on repeat viewings since by then most people are just completely out of the film emotionally and so their minds wander into "waaaaaaaaaaait a minute I learned that's not possible watching Magic School Bus"

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What in Superman's name is this fresh insanity?

Who was thinking about the impossible science of the awesome action scene? I mean, I guess the post declaring Superman a horrid psychopath shows that anything is technically possible but I'm still willing to bet that your "people start analyzing the action scene between superheroes for scientific inconsistencies" is an extremely minor and rare occurrence.

No, I just fail to see how unsubtle and forced symbology that only works on a superficial level is supposed to move me, or make me think of a religious figure.

If you had Superman show up before the Digital Age, sure, maybe. As it is, it just doesn't work and make me think that some people just don't know how religious beliefs work.

Superman doesn't scream Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha, or even Moses to me. At best, I could compare him to Heracles and other Greek demigods.

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Have you never heard of Rael or the Raelian Movement? A lot of people think angels and ghosts are a lot of superstitious nonsense nowadays. YOu don't have to believe in a Kingdom of God where you and grandpa chill out forever to be religious.

A dude who can literally fix all the problems on the planet Earth would most definitely be viewed with reverence and awe.

 

[TheLordofAwesome]

So given the recent subject matters we've been talking about I figure I'll leave this video here as it is on the current topic of Superman. It is quite an interesting look at the character and I figure you guys would be interested in watching it.

 

[Nikkolas]

I realize now that my main problem with escalating violence with superheroes and with the Snyder films in general was pretty well communicated by Dan Olson.



From a thematic standpoint superheroes are supposed to be idealized pictures of altruism, but we're seeing a steadily creeping influence of a kind of post-9/11 thought the idea that death, destruction, and the violation of civil liberties are not seen as truly bad things to be avoided but the unavoidable cost of doing business, and that both defeats the actual purpose of superheroes and kinda says a lot about how fucked up our cultural perception of violence, authority and heroism has become over the years.

Click to shrink...

Yes, times change. That's a good thing.

Used to be The Hulk - a dude who could, conservatively, swing skyscrapers around like clubs, literally could go on rampages and not kill a soul. How? COMICS MAGIC! That bullshit you talked about where no one gets hurt ever.

But we live in an age where comics are evolving. Like pulp sci-fi becoming real art, comics have embraced deeper themes and ideas, namely that superheroes are a symbol of violence and authority. They've always been that but in the Loony Tunes black-and-white simplicity of bygone days, that didn't matter. The Orcs were killed by the noble men of Gondor and you don't think anymore about it. Superheroes beat up villains and you don't think anymore about it.

But nowadays? We have to think about the why. Why is Batman the way he is? And no, this development is not all post-9/11 shit. Frank Miller rewrote Batman back in the 80s. Rather than the childish power fantasy he once was, Miller gave us a portrait of a deeply, deeply disturbed man.

And that's what superhero comics today want to show. The man. Not the cape. Not the old sense of self-righteousness.

 

[mothematics]

Who was thinking about the impossible science of the awesome action scene? I mean, I guess the post declaring Superman a horrid psychopath shows that anything is technically possible but I'm still willing to bet that your "people start analyzing the action scene between superheroes for scientific inconsistencies" is an extremely minor and rare occurrence.

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What I said, or at least tried to say, was that the less emotionally invested people are in a story - and the dramatic construction of MoS is faulted such that a lot of people got knocked out of it by the point the massive last fight began - the easier it is for things to knock them out entirely. So when you're coasting on technical prowess and how you're engaging the right-side of the brain (eg the logic side, the nerdy, nitpicking side), if you don't have the emotion deftness to paper over any problems there, then suddenly because the nitpick-y side is out in full force, it'll go

"wait a minute"

"this doesn't work"

And then by that point things fall apart even more.

Actually, here, let me drop this article on Man of Steel because I broadly agree with everything said in it. I think that even if you don't agree with the above, this is worth reading, because it's a huge analysis about Man of Steel and its failings to engage with traditional dramatic structures and techniques that it really should have.

Film Crit Hulk Smash: THE IMPORTANCE OF DRAMATIZING CHARACTER

It's pretty long, fair warning. You can paste it in here to make it lowercase: Decapitalize text online

 

[all fictions]

Have you never heard of Rael or the Raelian Movement? A lot of people think angels and ghosts are a lot of superstitious nonsense nowadays. YOu don't have to believe in a Kingdom of God where you and grandpa chill out forever to be religious.

A dude who can literally fix all the problems on the planet Earth would most definitely be viewed with reverence and awe.

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Yes I know of Raelism and I know some New Age beliefs include ascended masters from beyond the stars or ancient astronaut aliens coming down to give their teachings on peace and spirituality.

But, and this might surprise you, Superman doesn't do that. He either saves people from natural disasters or punch other aliens, none of which is something that would necessarily inspire faith.

Again, you would have to have a pretty shallow understanding of religious beliefs to think Superman as presented would become worshipped or seen as a god.

 

[Nikkolas]

Yes I know of Raelism and I know some New Age beliefs include ascended masters from beyond the stars or ancient astronaut aliens coming down to give their teachings on peace and spirituality.

But, and this might surprise you, Superman doesn't do that. He either saves people from natural disasters or punch other aliens, none of which is something that would necessarily inspire faith.

Again, you would have to have a pretty shallow understanding of religious beliefs to think Superman as presented would become worshipped or seen as a god.

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That's a bit elitist. It's the same kind of deal that would make Catholic look down on a Protestant or for both of them to look down on a New Age Movement.

There is no standard for what makes a religion or what deserves veneration. If someone cried "save me Jesus!" and nothing happened so they instead cried "save me, Superman!" and then Superman did save them, I wouldn't blame them for worshiping him over Jesus.

Ever read the Mistborn books? I was just reading them for the first time. They have a nice discussion about the value of religion and what their purpose is. I agreed with it. Religions exist to give hope and comfort and from that angle, Superman is absolutely a religious icon.