His dad taught him to hide and I think that informs a lot of his personality.
Batman vs. Superman: Killing and Expectations
- Thread starter Nikkolas
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His dad taught him to hide and I think that informs a lot of his personality.
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This is, I suppose, neither here nor there but it kind of is because I made this thread dammit.
It is an interesting fact to me that comic book writers who people tend to associate with cynicism or grittiness really like Superman. People like Frank Miller or Garth Ennis, the latter especially because his hatred for capes is well-known. Alan Moore also likes Superman, although he's a bit different from those other two.
I wonder what it is about the world's biggest boy scout that melts the heart of everyone.
It is an interesting fact to me that comic book writers who people tend to associate with cynicism or grittiness really like Superman. People like Frank Miller or Garth Ennis, the latter especially because his hatred for capes is well-known. Alan Moore also likes Superman, although he's a bit different from those other two.
I wonder what it is about the world's biggest boy scout that melts the heart of everyone.
RoboRenee
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Injustice is an elseworld entirely dedicated to the idea of everyone punching each other in the punch dimension. Superman's motivational shift barely makes any sense at all. (and Injustice is an elseworld that makes no engagement with the themes of Superman because the only point is punching)
Kingdom Come, for all that I love the story, is in large part a deconstruction of the superheroic archetype. And thus not a relevant point for 'who Superman is' because Superman is deeply entwined with the conventions of the superhero 'genre', which Kingdom Come is playing with. Superman's behavior is a reflection not of Superman, but of the superheroic archetype. Plus, I mean, him caring is a massive part of his character in that series.
Guess no-one's cynical all the time?
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So your answer is just to attack the work and ignore it. Just because you dislike Injustice doesn't mean it is lacking in meaning.
In Kingdom Come Superman does care - in a very abstract sort of way. He's so fixated on his ideals that he forgets the reality. He hates what superheroes have become and he's so lost in memories of better days (with Lois) that he's willing to ignore all the ethical implications of what he's doing to try and "fix" the world as fast as possible. The rush job of the metahuman prison really demonstrated he hoped more than thought about making the world better.
The thing is, if I was Norman, when Spectre asked me to choose, I'd have told him to immediately stop those bombs and save the superhumans. Because Superman and Wonder Woman and people like them really should rule the world. There's really no question about that. Someone once dragged out KC to show me a story that "deals with the issue" of superhumans taking over and shows why it's a bad thing. But the only thing bad about it was when Superman decided to leave humanity's fate to Magog because we "chose" Magog's breed of hero. He was consumed by naivete.
Of course the moral of the story is that this naivete - presented as an "instinctive" knowledge of right and wrong - is what makes Superman special an a cut above all other heroes.
This carries over to Injustice. Superman's breakdown at the end of Injustice 1 is a good comparison to how he abandoned humanity in KC. We "rejected" him and he just can't take it. He knows what's better for us - the story outright tells us this - and he's justifiably angry that we dare to question his wisdom.
Justice Lords Superman was a dog turd and you'd be right to brush him off as meaningless but Injustice and KC both obviously have a lot to say about the Superman ideal.
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Their answer is pointing out that Injustice has nothing to do with the character of Superman and brush it off because Superman's motivation there is shit. Injustice has no meaning or insight in Superman, and you are the only one attacking here because your argument falls apart if you stop accusing people of bias and consider the facts.
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Superman's shift makes perfect sense and is pretty much the same as KC. (Joker kills Lois) Adds a little detail of Clark being disillusioned with himself as opposed to being disillusioned with humanity.
Sorry, I'm not the one completely disregarding a work just because I have a bone to pick and want to say it has no meaning or useful insight. That is what I'd call bias.
I have learned a lot, though. Not from this thread - I had to consult Superman fans elsewhere.
Quite frankly, I wish less people would fixate on justified killing and Instead turn their moral outrages to examine why comic books are so obsessed with NOT killing, to the extent they invent alternatives that are far more evil and insidious.
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You are a lying hypocrite. When Lunatic gave you reasons why Injustice has no meaning or insight, you ignored them and started whining and strawmanning because you hate Superman and every single argument you made up against him was called out on the bullshit it was. Stop projecting your bias on everyone who doesn't share your fantasies and grow the fuck up.
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Hm, let's see this startling insight about why "Injustice has no meaning."
So...where are these reasons? I only see someone saying "it is about punching." That's not a reason - that's a baseless opinion that ignores what the story is about and all the great context established by the Injustice prequel comics.
And at last, you show the true colors of all the people who bitch about Man of Steel. I have done nothing but praise Superman's character this entire thread. But you're an elitist snob who thinks anyone who doesn't agree with your narrow views of the character just hates Superman.
One of the first comics I ever read was about Superman. I cheered Superman on to the very end. But because it's not "your" Superman, it doesn't count.
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Arthur Frayn
Fake God by Occupation, Magician by Inclination
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Are you arguing that anyone who doesn't like Man of Steel doesn't like Superman?
Because, uh, that's a very weird take.
Injustice and how Superman becomes how he is in the game makes a lot more sense in the comics. And it's mostly the result of his closest friends total dicks to him and condemning him for everything and havingbzero sympathy. Wonder Woman on the other hand doesn't make no sense, because she does a complete 180 from how she normally acts in most other comics.
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No, that's what he's saying. I loved Man of Steel, a lot. But he claims I hate Superman.
If you hate MOS, that's cool. I strongly disagree but it doesn't make you less of a Superman fan. I'm in no position to judge anyone a "true" or "false" fan.
It's kinda why I thought Injustice was inspired by KC. The Wonder Woman in these two series seems very similar.
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MysticKnightJoe
Defender of Holy Terra
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Now, see, we don't disagree with you because you have a "different view" on Superman, we disagree with you because your view is so counter to how the character has been portrayed for the past 75 Years in 95% of mediums that it is actually shocking. See, I don't mind if Superman is different really, I don't mind if he is a pure idealist, a solemn philospher, or even...well...not a good person. See, I've read a ton of Superman comics myself, and I do think I have a decent handle on the guy. I dont hate MoS's Superman because he is different, I hate him because the writing doesn't support what they were trying to do. A solemn down-to-earth Superman has worked, in Bryne's Run, in Kurt Busiek's Secret Identity, several times. See, your saying we are elitists refusing to see things from your point of view, but really, you seem to be determined to strawman everyone who dares disagree with your stance as an elitist moron who just doesn't get it. We get it, we just disagree. Your the one refusing to see things from our point of view, not us, so seriously dude, get over yourself.
Arthur Frayn
Fake God by Occupation, Magician by Inclination
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I mean, you edited your post, which this whole thing is coming off like you're accusing us of being morons who "just don't get it" for not agreeing with your particular take on Superman.
That, and constantly using words like "bias" to describe opinions on comic book characters isn't helping. "Bias", "elitist", "snob", etc. aren't magic words that instantly dispel any argument you don't like. We're talking about fictional characters here, there's no "objective" POV for someone to be "wrong" about.
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You did realize what he said, right? I've engaged with people this entire thread. I respect the views held by posters like @Q99 even though they are the opposite of my own on this.
But when someone bursts in and tells me to "grow the fuck up" and that I "hate" a character, when they put words and beliefs to me that I do not have, I feel justified in calling them an elitist snob and several worse things besides.
So, yeah. I have edited my post because I have a bad temper and that post put me in a bad mood.
I'm sorry I painted you all with the same brush in that post. It was wrong of me.
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RoboRenee
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Injustice doesn't have anything deep to say about its characters. Injustice isn't evidence that any of those characters are anything. Injustice is a Mortal Kombat game. Every narrative decision made was made with the intent that two characters would be punching each other inside of five minutes, first and foremost. You want to know how I can tell? Because Injustice doesn't try to raise any questions at all, or to inspire, or to demotivate. No time is spent going 'hey, maybe the Regime was a good idea but taken too far' - no, time is spent instead lasermurdering Captain Marvel and having Hal Jordan pull a Sinestro for no adequately explained reason. No time is spent saying 'hey, maybe Batman's resistance isn't the best thing ever' - time is instead spent on Batman V. Batman: Dawn of Batman, with the closest to a question being Harley Quinn immediately devolving into the Joker's toy (to facilitate more punching). Seeing this evil Superman doesn't make any of the characters from the more traditional universe make inspirational speeches, or try to show the world that things can be better, or anything of the sort. There's no moral or character evolution. Just 'hey, evil Supes, time for punching'. The existence of the Regime isn't an attempt to deconstruct superheroes or anything else interesting, because the characters spend absolutely no time reflecting on anything, and again the narrative never prompts questions. Nobody thinks about the Regime, they just stop it. Because it is Evil and they are Good and this facilitates punching.
I mean, the game's fun, but the plot has all the depth of a kiddie pool. There's no greater meaning there.
EDIT: I can't speak to the comics - maybe they do all of these things alongside making Harley Quinn into a pedophile. But I doubt it.
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RoboRenee
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Like I said, maybe the comics are super insightful. But, y'know,
I doubt it.
Mister Bad Guy
Mr Mercury to friends
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He seems to be referring more to the game itself. As for the comic... well, I view Injustice as more a success of delivery than interesting writing or messaging. It was a cordoned-off continuity and entirely delivered online alongside a successful game. It's very approachable; I've met plenty of people who have started with or only read Injustice. But the actual story is starting from such an absurdly maudlin and over the top point (Superman gets tricked into punching his pregnant wife to death, which nukes Metropolis) that it was really only a matter of time before it turned into a lunatic rollercoaster and the most memorable moment turned out to be that time Alfred got hopped up on superpower juice and kicked Superman in the face so hard that his shoe explodes. It's not bad for the most part, but it's not at all a definitive take - best conveyed by the fact that it is, by its own logic, a horribly divergent alternate timeline.
all fictions
I hate you! (it's not against the rules!)
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Wait, what the hell is happening in that pic?Like I said, maybe the comics are super insightful. But, y'know,
I doubt it.
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Yea. I should mention, the reviews aren't so much that it's great, just that it's probably better than it has any right to be being a lead-in to a not-all-that-great-game.
And the divergences are interesting. Like, in this universe, Superman and Lex have been friends for a long time, which may be a factor in his different morals to begin with. And, well, someone less interesting but as I mentioned, Wonder Woman is pretty aggro, fairly strongly pushing for the regime from early on.
Still, stuff like Deadman's successor which leads to this moment gets shown to me, so...
Harley's apparently started stalking Billy.