Batman vs. Superman: Killing and Expectations

You don't have to like it or enjoy it- if it's not your thing, don't force yourself.

It's merely on the topic of heroes trying to minimize damage, and especially the visual storytelling thereof, where this is very definitely a theme. Whether one did or didn't like Avengers doesn't change that the heroes actions there were solidly on the side of trying to save who they could, when they could, and the presence of Hulk certainly didn't change that, seeing his focus on destroying the giant flying alien war beasts who were actively and deliberately causing damage.

Yes and as I recall that Banner could magically control his Hulk Outs. Very convenient, that. No Savage Mindless/Child Hulk here. Think that kind of undermines the whole point but I guess no one in the MCU will be launching him into space because he's such a danger.

But fair enough. I was being daft, obfuscating comics and the MCU.
 
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Yes and as I recall that Banner could magically control his Hulk Outs. Very convenient, that. No Savage Mindless/Child Hulk here. Think that kind of undermines the whole point but I guess no one in the MCU will be launching him into space because he's such a danger.

But fair enough. I was being daft, obfuscating comics and the MCU.

Even in comics, he's mindless enough to be a danger to all around him, what, maybe 5-10% of the time? Normal Dumb Hulk ala the movie probably 40% of the time, Smart Hulk maybe 30%, and then some other variant the rest like Grey Hulk... there is a lot of variants of Hulk and I do kinda wonder if the movies are going to get around to Hulk variants at some point...

Movie Banner can trigger his Hulk-outs, but notably not turn them off or prevent them if an outside source is influence him.

Also in A2 he goes into space due to raging out earlier due to one of Wanda's hexes. In Thor Ragnarok he's in an arena ala Planet Hulk.

Anyway, one can definitely make arguments about the pros vs cons of Hulk in the Avengers or not, he is a danger, but it is definitely a matter of balancing pros vs cons, the good he does vs the danger, and not simply a morals-off thing or not caring about the danger.
 
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Even in comics, he's mindless enough to be a danger to all around him, what, maybe 5-10% of the time? Normal Dumb Hulk ala the movie probably 40% of the time, Smart Hulk maybe 30%, and then some other variant the rest like Grey Hulk... there is a lot of variants of Hulk and I do kinda wonder if the movies are going to get around to Hulk variants at some point...

Movie Banner can trigger his Hulk-outs, but notably not turn them off or prevent them if an outside source is influence him.

Also in A2 he goes into space due to raging out earlier due to one of Wanda's hexes. In Thor Ragnarok he's in an arena ala Planet Hulk.

Anyway, one can definitely make arguments about the pros vs cons of Hulk in the Avengers or not, he is a danger, but it is definitely a matter of balancing pros vs cons, the good he does vs the danger, and not simply a morals-off thing or not caring about the danger.

I'd legit like to see Grey "Mobster" Hulk. That ain't gonna ever happen but I'd definitely go see that in theaters.

Oh well, thanks for the info.

Did they ever explain if Loki in Avengers was, like, mind-controlled or something? I mentioned Thor was my favorite movie and that was partly due to Loki. Consequently, his depiction in Avengers was a big reason I hated that movie.
 
You know what, at least we can all agree the MCU and the DCEU are nothing like X-Men: Apocalypse, where you have Apocalypse probably killing most people in Cairo and Magneto using his powers probably killing people all over the globe, yet walking free at the end of the movie.
 
I'd legit like to see Grey "Mobster" Hulk. That ain't gonna ever happen but I'd definitely go see that in theaters.

Oh well, thanks for the info.

Did they ever explain if Loki in Avengers was, like, mind-controlled or something? I mentioned Thor was my favorite movie and that was partly due to Loki. Consequently, his depiction in Avengers was a big reason I hated that movie.

Nah, he's not mind controlled, just made some very bad decisions due to being at a down point in his life after Thor.
 
Your really strong level personal of identification with a franchise is somewhat unusual mate, and you could probably stand to examine why that is.

Edit: "frankly insulting"? I'm talking about badly executed corporate product here but anyone else might think we were discussing the virtues of your sainted mother.
You're assuming an awful lot, here.
The notion that Marvel movies portray superheroic responsibility more effectively than DC movies,after such shambolic spectacles as the evacuation of Socovia by 4 tiny flying taxis and one big boat, Tony still being a free man after making Ultron, or a giant very explosive smash up in an airport involving a pressganged 15 year old as one of the combatants, is an interesting one. Quite why it persists is even more interesting.

Is it because people confuse small tokenistic efforts at damage mitigation with genuinely effective action? Is it because the characters doing these silly things are portrayed as personable and affable individuals, so when they do stuff like make super death AIs or blow up giant ships right above a city, the audience is more willing to excuse their actions on the basis of strong personal identification? Maybe it's a much broader problem, where the kind of framing that pervades most superhero comic books, wherein a chosen few must do anything necessary to hold back the dark (and therefore can't be subject to the normal moral constraints that would otherwise bind powerful actors) translates really easily to the big screen, and fans are already primed to accept that kind of thinking?

Maybe it's all of the above.

Maybe superhero movies of all kinds have serious problems with the way they depict their subjects, and maybe this doesn't constitute a "frankly insulting" personal attack on the people who like that sort of thing.

Maybe it's ok to say "actually yeah this whole genre has internal problems that are pretty fundamental and which are no less serious from franchise to franchise, corporate property to corporate property"

Who knows. :)
Or maybe it's because the Marvel films acknowledge that superheroic responsibility is a worthwhile and desirable thing to have, and expects its characters to put significant effort into it that, while realistically insufficient, nevertheless receives meaningful narrative emphasis... while the DC films seem to be entirely mystified by the very concept. Trying to say the issue is no less serious on either end seems frankly bizarre to me.

Maybe I should clarify: When I called this insulting, I meant that the comparison was insulting to Marvel, in that it is overly dismissive of the effort they put into addressing this exact issue. You can say they're failing, we can argue the relative merits of the effects of their realistically-insufficient harm reduction efforts versus the narrative stress that an ultimately unrealistic-from-the-premise story places on the concept, and I can certainly see why you'd conclude that Marvel doesn't do nearly enough on this score. But they are at least trying to do it justice, so yes, I count that as a damn sight better than DC.
I agree that a comparison isn't fair, but not in the way you're thinking. The films are trying to do different things. The MCU is able to emphasize the "heroic effort to minimize the casualties of superhuman violence" because superhuman violence in the MCU is extremely sanitized. I like the MCU, all things said and told, but one of the things that has always frustrated me is the lack of scale; it's difficult to take the level of violence in the MCU seriously when the Hammer drones in Iron Man 2 - supposedly a program designed to bolster the capacity of the United States armed forces - have weapons with destructive power less potent than hand grenades, when alien invaders have capabilities significantly less potent than modern helicopter gunships, when the Ultron robots are about as threatening as Putty Patrollers from Power Rangers. The fight chereography in the MCU has always been a Dynasty Warriors-like hack-fest wish-fulfillment fantasy where the protagonists get to face off against dozens - if not hundreds - of mooks about as threatening as tissue paper.

Which is fine. That's the way the MCU wants to tell its story, and that comes with its own narrative strengths. Man of Steel, however, gives for Superman's debut an ensemble of enemies that outclass him at almost every turn. That's the difference between praising your mother's performance in Tetris in her first-time video game experience and criticizing your mother's performance in Dark Souls in her first-time video game experience. I'm not saying this to be insulting, and I can easily agree to the idea that the way Man of Steel approached its story was not without its flaws; I'm just saying that I respect what Man of Steel did. However, to then compare the two with the idea that one of them is "a damn sight better" is...well, to use your words, "frankly kind of insulting", but not in the way you think it is.

It's also worth pointing out that it's not like the MCU hasn't committed a lot of the same sins. I mean, sure, the MCU has had character development through multiple films, but I think it's unfair to use an entire franchise as a point of comparison against a single film, and single films in the MCU suffer from a lot of the same problems that are being mentioned here. Does nobody remember that in the aftermath of the invasion of New York, the first thing the heroes do - instead of mourning the damage caused by the invasion - is to joke about eating at a shawarma restaurant? Or how a battle involving three superweapons over Washington, D.C., ends with Black Widow giving one-liners to a government subcommittee? Or how Thor deliberately blew up a oil truck in an urban combat environment while civilians were evacuating? Or how everyone is all smiles after a costly battle that involved a city nearly being used as a world-ending kinetic strike with massive casualties? Or how the whole idea of Tony suffering from PTSD after New York or guilt after Sokovia - or the damages and costs inflicted therein - wasn't even touched on until future films so as to not get in the way of "and then everyone was happy" endings?

Again, I'm not trying to diss the MCU. I'm a heck of a lot more invested in the MCU than I am in the DCEU, which - beyond Man of Steel - reeks of a cynical cash grab to screw with Marvel. I'm just having this really strange sense that there's this weird double standard going on here.
I find this to be a much fairer appraisal, on the other hand.

I would not necessarily agree that Man of Steel's handling of its fight scenes does anything to excuse its patent lack of superheroic responsibility; I think it speaks more to Snyder's fundamental misunderstanding of the character. I've argued back and forth about the battles in that film before, as it happens, and mostly come to the conclusion that there's a total and rather disturbing lack of any attempt to minimise the damage, successful or otherwise, which is the main contrast I draw between it and... basically any of the comparable Marvel films, really. That said, yeah, the flippancy of Marvel's films does betimes make for an uneasy counterpoint to the collateral damage, and the films have never been particularly good at handling Stark's PTSD. These are fair points.
 
I'm kinda hesitant to dismiss the idea of Krypton being shithole — it doesn't figure that such an expansive and eugenics-obsessed culture would be kind on a societal level. Then again, I've only been exposed to Krypton from MoS and Superman: The Animated Series, and S:TAS didn't focus on Krypton's politics much but the way I remember it was generally portrayed to be non-malicious and merely fooled by Brainiac so... Maybe I just happened upon the shitty portrayals?
and the films have never been particularly good at handling Stark's PTSD.
I hope the 'films' here doesn't include Iron Man 3.
 
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I'm kinda hesitant to deny the idea of Krypton being shithole — it doesn't figure that such an expansive and eugenics-obsessed culture would be kind on a societal level. Then again, I've only been exposed to Krypton from MoS and Superman: The Animated Series, and S:TAS didn't focus on Krypton's politics much but the way I remember it was generally portrayed to be non-malicious and merely fooled by Brainiac.

I hope the 'films' here doesn't include Iron Man 3.

Krypton has changed a lot over the years. From a shining and great world, to a sterile and static place, often with a more violent past.
 
Krypton has changed a lot over the years. From a shining and great world, to a sterile and static place, often with a more violent past.
Yeah, but which portrayal is more fitting to the 'best of both worlds' aspect of Clark? Should one stick to a single concept of Krypton, or should there be used a portrayal that mixes both and has Clark adopt the best parts of Kryptonian culture while condemning the shitty ones?

I'm kinda confused about this, honestly, it makes me unsure how I should portray Jor-El.
 
I'm still baffled as to why OP thinks a guy who lobotomized political dissidents was "totally right" and the guy who led to a millennium of peace and prosperity for all was wrong in Red Son.
 
I'm still baffled as to why OP thinks a guy who lobotomized political dissidents was "totally right" and the guy who led to a millennium of peace and prosperity for all was wrong in Red Son.

Nik has, several times in the past, indicated that he's somewhat authoritarian. I'd bring up examples, but that's neither here nor there.
 
Except that Man of Steel dropped 65% in its second weekend. The general consensus among box-office experts is that the Snyder Superman films have largely underperformed, to the point that there was some doubt for a while as to whether BvS even turned a profit.

As for it being something new... no, not really. Man of Steel is mostly just a remix of Donner (the villain, Jor-El becoming God, Superman's journey being overlaid with an imposed moral imperative) and Byrne (the treatment of Krypton and resulting assimilation narrative, the heavy role of the Kent family, ending on a death), but lacking the nostalgia and innocence of the former and the genuine humanism of the latter. Even its most memorable quote - Jor-El's "they will join you in the sun" speech - is lifted directly from the comics (All-Star Superman #12, to be specific).

And talking of that speech, it actually worked in that context, because unlike Man of Steel, All-Star Superman doesn't just talk about how Superman has the capacity to forgive and find hope. It's a story where Superman manages to find the good in an entire planet of insane monsters, a pair of Kryptonian conquerors, an evil space computer that tried to kill the sun, and Lex Luthor, all because Superman refuses to give up on them. It's also a story where the people of Kandor cure cancer, a girl finds the will to live, and a scientist manages to continue Superman's legacy even when he's gone, all because of the ways Superman has helped them. Nothing even slightly like any of those things happens in Man of Steel or Batman v. Superman. The only character Superman manages to redeem or uplift is Batman, and that's only posthumously - and "the last time you really inspired anyone was when you were dead" was not a line meant to be proven right.

Or, to put it another way, in the comic the DCEU pulls from, Jimmy Olsen risks his life and turns himself into a monster to save his best friend. In the DCEU, Jimmy Olsen gets shot in the head.

That's not what I believe, I copy pasted that quote from the OP.

For me, I do think Man of Steel wasn't for me.
I know some like it, but I didn't really.
Did not hate it either.

It had good fight scenes, but the pacing was jarring for me.
And while I could see what they wanted to do with Kent, I felt it was poorly executed.

I also disliked the Kents. The Kents to me were always a factor to show what good people could be, adopting a stranger.
Here Superman becomes Superman in spite of the Kents, not because of them.
Jon "Pa" Kents death was also something I disliked.

Speaking of building-sized beings fighting in cities, we saw in Pacific Rim, the Jaegers very consciously moved around buildings and tried to drag things where damage was minimized (water, preferably), while the Kaiju plowed right through. A nice contrast for me.


Also I do think people definitely wanted a Superman action movie- Superman II was the best of the old batch, after all, and Returns was... kinda weird, and that Superman had his own issues too (sure, it wasn't killing, but what's up with the stalking? Or running out for years?). But, that doesn't mean they wouldn't have preferred a Superman action movie with a different moral compass. Because in all 5 Superman live action movies before MoS, a full 3/5 of them have no physical opponent at all, and one of the two that did sucked.

Personally, and this is a hypothesis that hasn't been tested since Superman 2, 37 years ago, I think people would really dig a morally iconic Superman movie where he fought villains who were physical threats and managed to come out on top. They don't want Superman vs real-estate scams (???) or hackers, they want him to go up against threats that push him and challenge him, and then show why he's the greatest hero and earn that status!
Speaking of building-sized beings fighting in cities, we saw in Pacific Rim, the Jaegers very consciously moved around buildings and tried to drag things where damage was minimized (water, preferably), while the Kaiju plowed right through. A nice contrast for me.

I think that the subtle tone of scenes in the films is very important.

In Man of Steel, the color, visuals, music, and ambient noises during the Metropolis fight are all depressing. Screams, crying, dark images, falling debris, heavy music. The scene doesn't feel good, despite the visually impressive fight Zod and Supes has across the skyline and into space.
In Pacific Rim the music is tense, but never depressing, and also gets heroic and up lifting at points to pump the audience up.

This never really happens in MOS, it keeps its depressing tone through big parts of it. Making the few jokes and quips feel jarring to me.

It also makes the supposed 'happy' moments feel force and tacked on to me.

"He saved us", says Perry White and Jenny.
As they lay still half crushed under rubble with bleak music still going on, as Superman stands 50 meters away kissing Lois and not helping.

Batman Vs Superman does this too, adding tacked on dialogue that felt to me like an after thought.
"They crashed on the abandoned island"
"Good thing there was nobody there"

I felt like I was watching a Power Rangers film, except even the Power Rangers film was more subtle then that.

These lines felt awkward to me, because they didn't flow. There was no lead up before, or follow up after.
It's like Snyder the director and the writers had a check box that said "Limit casualties", and checked it off as fast as possible.

Even though limiting casualties wasn't what, at least, not what I disliked about Man of Steel.

The element I disliked is that the director wants to have these grand heavy, depressing fight scenes. Those elements give the Zod vs Clark fight a lot of weight.
And then snap back to status quo right after them, without acknowledging those deaths.

Superman can fail to save people and make mistakes in my book.
What he cannot do is, after failing to save people, make a quip and then go fly off, doing nothing else.
 
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I remember watching Man of Steel in theaters, and how shocked I was by the Smallville fight scene.

Remember when the chopper gets nailed and is going down? I 100% expected Superman to fly and try and stabilize the chopper or at least ease it down, and for Faora/Namek to capitalize on that.

Instead, Superman decides to help the one guy who fell and then take his time while letting the chopper fall (and not bother checking up on those dudes).

In the fight versus Zod, I kept thinking "Superman is gonna look and see the screaming civilians constantly surrounding him and try and take the fight out of the city as fast as possible." NOPE.

I don't have an issue with the death toll or Superman having to kill Zod. I take issue with the fact that in the big important fight scenes, Superman didn't even try to take the fight elsewhere, or prioritize helping people caught in the crossfire.

Shit, remember when Faora says:

You are weak, Son of El, unsure of yourself. The fact that you possess a sense of morality, and we do not, gives us an evolutionary advantage. And if history has proven *anything*...It is that evolution always wins.

Sounds like a great opportunity to mine dramatic tension from Superman's need to save everyone against the Kryptonians fascistic belief in survival of the fittest and the war of all against all! Hey, maybe the climax could involve Zod deliberately wrecking Metropolis in order to force Superman to wear himself out saving people, maybe while making some speech about how Superman's love for humanity is a weakness, only for Superman to prove him wrong, saving everyone and defeating Zod, thereby demonstrating that Zod (and the Kryptonians by extension) philosophy is morally bankrupt and bullshit?
 
Shit, remember when Faora says:

Sounds like a great opportunity to mine dramatic tension from Superman's need to save everyone against the Kryptonians fascistic belief in survival of the fittest and the war of all against all! Hey, maybe the climax could involve Zod deliberately wrecking Metropolis in order to force Superman to wear himself out saving people, maybe while making some speech about how Superman's love for humanity is a weakness, only for Superman to prove him wrong, saving everyone and defeating Zod, thereby demonstrating that Zod (and the Kryptonians by extension) philosophy is morally bankrupt and bullshit?

Hell, make it such that Superman CAN'T save everyone, Superman gets the shit kicked out of him by Zod while trying, and Zod laughs and mocks him for that, saying "you could beat me, with your added exposure to the sun, but instead you worry about these ants; you can't save all of them AND beat me, etc."

And Kal just goes "I can try" and even though people die, it's shown Kal is willing to try his damnedest even at the risk of his own life
 
Hell, make it such that Superman CAN'T save everyone, Superman gets the shit kicked out of him by Zod while trying, and Zod laughs and mocks him for that, saying "you could beat me, with your added exposure to the sun, but instead you worry about these ants; you can't save all of them AND beat me, etc."

And Kal just goes "I can try" and even though people die, it's shown Kal is willing to try his damnedest even at the risk of his own life

God, that would've been an amazing moment. Superman's entire schtick as a character is that he never stops trying. In the words of Grant Morrison, "Somewhere, in our darkest night, we made up the story of a man who will never let us down."

Seriously, it's almost astonishing how Snyder keeps teeing up (seemingly by accident) moments where Superman could lay out some kind of philosophy or motivation, and instead blows right past it in favor of some swole dudes posing for pretty-but-hollow portraits. I mean, in BvS he's all set to testify in front of Congress, and instead of, you know, giving an inspirational speech that would be undercut by Luthor's terrorism, Snyder has him look grumpy, then fly away from the bombed out capital.
 
I also disliked the Kents. The Kents to me were always a factor to show what good people could be, adopting a stranger.
Here Superman becomes Superman in spite of the Kents, not because of them.
Jon "Pa" Kents death was also something I disliked.

Did anyone like Jon's death?

I do know some liked that take on him (someone struggling with not wanting his son to face the slings and arrows that going public will bring vs doing good), though I personally am with you and really dislike that angle, but even though I can see that, his death seemed really dumb!


God, that would've been an amazing moment. Superman's entire schtick as a character is that he never stops trying. In the words of Grant Morrison, "Somewhere, in our darkest night, we made up the story of a man who will never let us down."

Seriously, it's almost astonishing how Snyder keeps teeing up (seemingly by accident) moments where Superman could lay out some kind of philosophy or motivation, and instead blows right past it in favor of some swole dudes posing for pretty-but-hollow portraits. I mean, in BvS he's all set to testify in front of Congress, and instead of, you know, giving an inspirational speech that would be undercut by Luthor's terrorism, Snyder has him look grumpy, then fly away from the bombed out capital.

This Superman is, after all, not the one who earned iconic status through a string of heroic actions. Nor is he the empathic person of classic Superman- or Clark Kent- who knows how to reassure people with heroic words.

Which again makes people treating him as this icon all the more odd, and I mean that in-universe too, that aspect of of the character simply doesn't fit his skill set. He's a more introverted, rookie hero, and still definitely a hero, but so much doesn't fit message-wise (a big pet peeve of mine in adaptations is importing some aspects of other versions but not incorporating the reasons those aspects are there).

It's like, a large part of why the Luthor stuff can stick to him in BvS is he's this introverted guy who doesn't know how to control his own message. Everyone just seems to be attaching messages to Superman good and bad, and it's like, he's much more, "Look... I'm just here to stop the disasters in front of me. I don't know how to handle this stuff."
 
So in regards to the initial question regarding the act of a character like Superman killing, I'm honestly mixed - it's not something I personally care for and I honestly would be more than happy to have a cinematic universe without it but I can understand how it can have decent stories out of it. And, on a base level, I think something interesting could have been brought out of the concept in something like Man of Steel. That said, I kinda hate the DCEU and think all three of the big films under its belt thus far are all utterly inane trite that bury decent ideas in piles upon piles of terrible decisions, but I guess that's more an argument for another day.

I wanna talk about presentation.

See, I think it's easy to not really care THAT much about a death count for a character based on how it's presented. If you throw tons of nooks at a character in a quick paced action scene that focuses primarily on the fighter dispatching enemies with powers or such, it's easy to kinda ignore the implications; the enemies are all left in mostly ambiguous states, aren't given much time to really focus on, and it's clear that you aren't really supposed to think about the death count because that's not what the cinematography or editing is trying to get you to focus on. The illusion of film-making is what gets you to focus on what you need to.

The fight scene in Man of Steel is...well, it's shot like a disaster movie. I mean that literally, for the record - lots of distance shots focusing on the destruction of terrain, keeping the camera away from the combatants to focus on the mayhem. So...is it really a wonder why one might be unusually concerned in this scene compared to other destructive fights? The shots feel like they're supposed to make you fear the source. And, as sapphirenebula said, there's a lot of melancholy elements between the lighting, the score, etc. that keeps it feeling just kinda...unpleasant. Once you mentally connect "disaster imagery" to "icon of Superman" it is VERY distracting. If you aren't on board for a Superman that gets the same visual treatment as a tornado, it's very easy to find yourself unable to get into it.

And then there's the big kill, Zod. What is important here, in my opinion, is not the what or the who, but the how. It's not that hard to present a situation where Superman has to kill Zod before he kills more people, that's fairly standard stuff. But let's keep in mind the method of killing: neck snapping. This is, frankly, a poor idea to present a hero with if you want sympathy for him. The neck snap is basically media shorthand for a character's brutality. The kinds of characters that snap necks are those stone-cold bastards that snuff out a life without second thought, or the scary strongmen, or the assassins; they're not pleasant characters, and the neck snap is short-hand because it's VERY painful and scary to look at and can be gotten away with in lower rated films. So, uh, yeah, not the best method to give a good first impression of this new Superman. Yes, the framing of the scene makes it make sense for Superman to use that method, but it's such an "execution" method. It's not just "Superman killed a villain", it's "Superman snapped a villain's neck". It's just so unpleasant. Whether or not you think Superman is justified in killing, forcing him into a position where killing someone means literally snapping their neck on-screen just seems like the wrong way to go about it; all the associations we have with that kind of character get implanted onto him and it's not a very likable result.

So yeah, I don't know how I feel about writing a scenario where Superman needs to kill someone, but I think that, when introducing a new version of Superman to the public and wanting to give a good first impression, filming his fight like it's 2012 and having him kill a man by twisting his neck like a soda cap is probably not the best idea. The magic of film-making is that you can frame anything with whatever tone you need it to; even if the results are the same, buildings crumble and Zod is dead, the presentation of those results leaves a big impact on the viewer that colors their perception of it. Ant-Man making Yellowjacket crumble on a molecular level is less scary than Superman snapping Zod's neck because one is cartoony enough to ignore and one is an icon using a VERY brutal and realistic method of murder. It's really all in the packaging.

And briefly re: religion, I'm apathetic to the concept of Superman being compared to a deity but I think the presentation of the idea is weak and silly. Oh you put Superman in a church, how clever. Oh hey he's in the crucifixion pose in space, you're such a deep visionary. Like it's less saying something meaningful about religion or the character and more just Snyder shouting "Hey Superman's a bit like JESUS AIN'T HE" as he elbows you in the ribs wiggling his eyebrows, it's clunky.
 
It's like, a large part of why the Luthor stuff can stick to him in BvS is he's this introverted guy who doesn't know how to control his own message. Everyone just seems to be attaching messages to Superman good and bad, and it's like, he's much more, "Look... I'm just here to stop the disasters in front of me. I don't know how to handle this stuff."

He doesn't even get a chance to say that, which is really crazy. Having him say "Look, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm just trying to do the best that I can" (or whatever) would be a great moment to humanize him and show that he's on the path to becoming the Big Blue Boy Scout we all know and love.

Instead, everyone talks around Superman, but he just stands there and looks like he's trying to hold in a fart.
 
So in regards to the initial question regarding the act of a character like Superman killing, I'm honestly mixed - it's not something I personally care for and I honestly would be more than happy to have a cinematic universe without it but I can understand how it can have decent stories out of it. And, on a base level, I think something interesting could have been brought out of the concept in something like Man of Steel. That said, I kinda hate the DCEU and think all three of the big films under its belt thus far are all utterly inane trite that bury decent ideas in piles upon piles of terrible decisions, but I guess that's more an argument for another day.

I wanna talk about presentation.

See, I think it's easy to not really care THAT much about a death count for a character based on how it's presented. If you throw tons of nooks at a character in a quick paced action scene that focuses primarily on the fighter dispatching enemies with powers or such, it's easy to kinda ignore the implications; the enemies are all left in mostly ambiguous states, aren't given much time to really focus on, and it's clear that you aren't really supposed to think about the death count because that's not what the cinematography or editing is trying to get you to focus on. The illusion of film-making is what gets you to focus on what you need to.

The fight scene in Man of Steel is...well, it's shot like a disaster movie. I mean that literally, for the record - lots of distance shots focusing on the destruction of terrain, keeping the camera away from the combatants to focus on the mayhem. So...is it really a wonder why one might be unusually concerned in this scene compared to other destructive fights? The shots feel like they're supposed to make you fear the source. And, as sapphirenebula said, there's a lot of melancholy elements between the lighting, the score, etc. that keeps it feeling just kinda...unpleasant. Once you mentally connect "disaster imagery" to "icon of Superman" it is VERY distracting. If you aren't on board for a Superman that gets the same visual treatment as a tornado, it's very easy to find yourself unable to get into it.

There's also the very heavy handed 9/11 imagery (which BvS triples down on, for some insane reason), which is maybe the last thing you want inserted into your Superman movie. Superman Returns makes a lot of mistakes, but one thing it does well is the low key idea that Superman could have stopped 9/11 (or a 9/11-like event). Putting 9/11 imagery into a movie about Superman as background disaster porn, instead of being the climax, is...well, it's a really, really bad idea.

And then there's the big kill, Zod. What is important here, in my opinion, is not the what or the who, but the how. It's not that hard to present a situation where Superman has to kill Zod before he kills more people, that's fairly standard stuff. But let's keep in mind the method of killing: neck snapping. This is, frankly, a poor idea to present a hero with if you want sympathy for him. The neck snap is basically media shorthand for a character's brutality. The kinds of characters that snap necks are those stone-cold bastards that snuff out a life without second thought, or the scary strongmen, or the assassins; they're not pleasant characters, and the neck snap is short-hand because it's VERY painful and scary to look at and can be gotten away with in lower rated films. So, uh, yeah, not the best method to give a good first impression of this new Superman. Yes, the framing of the scene makes it make sense for Superman to use that method, but it's such an "execution" method. It's not just "Superman killed a villain", it's "Superman snapped a villain's neck". It's just so unpleasant. Whether or not you think Superman is justified in killing, forcing him into a position where killing someone means literally snapping their neck on-screen just seems like the wrong way to go about it; all the associations we have with that kind of character get implanted onto him and it's not a very likable result.

So yeah, I don't know how I feel about writing a scenario where Superman needs to kill someone, but I think that, when introducing a new version of Superman to the public and wanting to give a good first impression, filming his fight like it's 2012 and having him kill a man by twisting his neck like a soda cap is probably not the best idea. The magic of film-making is that you can frame anything with whatever tone you need it to; even if the results are the same, buildings crumble and Zod is dead, the presentation of those results leaves a big impact on the viewer that colors their perception of it. Ant-Man making Yellowjacket crumble on a molecular level is less scary than Superman snapping Zod's neck because one is cartoony enough to ignore and one is an icon using a VERY brutal and realistic method of murder. It's really all in the packaging.

Great point. I'd never thought about the "Bad guys snap necks" connection before, but that's a really good call. If you absolutely positively need to have Superman kill Zod, there's better ways of doing it than having him snap his neck.

I'm just spitballing here, but maybe you make Superman's fight with Zod concurrent with the military's plans to blow up the World Engine/send the Kryptonians back to the Phantom Zone (what's that, a ticking clock and outside stakes?). Superman manages to neutralize Zod just as the singularity kicks in, and Zod decides to drag Superman back with him/grab onto Superman to prevent getting sucked in. He starts pleading with Superman about how they can work together, they can rebuild the glory of Krypton, blah blah blah, and that's when Superman says "Krypton had its chance!" and let's Zod go (hey, symbolism!).

And briefly re: religion, I'm apathetic to the concept of Superman being compared to a deity but I think the presentation of the idea is weak and silly. Oh you put Superman in a church, how clever. Oh hey he's in the crucifixion pose in space, you're such a deep visionary. Like it's less saying something meaningful about religion or the character and more just Snyder shouting "Hey Superman's a bit like JESUS AIN'T HE" as he elbows you in the ribs wiggling his eyebrows, it's clunky.

Honestly, I've always thought that Moses makes a better (though not perfect) Biblical touchstone than Jesus. Jesus only gains meaning through sacrifice and is a fairly passive character, whereas Moses is an active participant in the liberation of the Jews, inspires/leads them through example, and guides them to the Promised Land (even if he himself doesn't live to see it). He's also stuck between two worlds (though that idea is more of a modern convention), belonging neither wholly to the Hebrews nor to the Egyptians. Hell, the Silver Age touched on this idea by having Luthor be a former childhood friend of Clark's who only goes bad later in life (paralleling the relationship between Pharaoh and Moses).

Basically, there's a really good Superman movie inside The Prince of Egypt.
 
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There's also the very heavy handed 9/11 imagery (which BvS triples down on, for some insane reason), which is maybe the last thing you want inserted into your Superman movie. Superman Returns makes a lot of mistakes, but one thing it does well is the low key idea that Superman could have stopped 9/11 (or a 9/11-like event). Putting 9/11 imagery into a movie about Superman as background disaster porn, instead of being the climax, is...well, it's a really, really bad idea.



Great point. I'd never thought about the "Bad guys snap necks" connection before, but that's a really good call. If you absolutely positively need to have Superman kill Zod, there's better ways of doing it than having him snap his neck.

I'm just spitballing here, but maybe you make Superman's fight with Zod concurrent with the military's plans to blow up the World Engine/send the Kryptonians back to the Phantom Zone (what's that, a ticking clock and outside stakes?). Superman manages to neutralize Zod just as the singularity kicks in, and Zod decides to drag Superman back with him/grab onto Superman to prevent getting sucked in. He starts pleading with Superman about how they can work together, they can rebuild the glory of Krypton, blah blah blah, and that's when Superman says "Krypton had its chance!" and let's Zod go (hey, symbolism!).



Honestly, I've always thought that Moses makes a better (though not perfect) Biblical touchstone than Jesus. Jesus only gains meaning through sacrifice and is a fairly passive character, whereas Moses is an active participant in the liberation of the Jews, inspires/leads them through example, and guides them to the Promised Land (even if he himself doesn't live to see it). He's also stuck between two worlds (though that idea is more of a modern convention), belonging neither wholly to the Hebrews nor to the Egyptians. Hell, the Silver Age touched on this idea by having Luthor be a former childhood friend of Clark's who only goes bad later in life (paralleling the relationship between Pharaoh and Moses).

Basically, there's a really good Superman movie inside The Prince of Egypt.
Honestly, the main reason MOSman doesn't work as a Jesus metaphor is that Jesus was more than just crucifixes and being the son of God. I say this as an atheist who roomed with a guy in a religious studies class, but Jesus was a fascinating person. He was an outspoken rebel who constantly preached his message, helped and lived among the sick and poor, and defied the government whenever possible. One time, he met a guy who was possessed and treated like a pariah, and exorcised hundreds of demons from him, and when the guy asked him if there was anything he could do, Jesus just told him to spread the word.
I could go on, but my point is that Jesus was a guy who had a very specific message and constantly spoke out about it. MOSman has no real message and never really speaks out about anything - best shown by the fact that, when he works in news, he does the sports beat.
 
To be fair, Clark actually wanted to report on Batman, but Perry sidelined him.
Yeah, and that's another thing: apparently, in the DCEU, a baseball player retiring is considered a bigger paper seller than an insane man in a bat costume the next city over running around in the night branding criminals.

But it still doesn't reflect well that the sports beat is considered his normal job.
 
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Superman is not Jesus and BvS serves as a whole movie pointing out why he's not. The only two people who think of him as a god are certified lunatics.

Did anyone like Jon's death?

I do know some liked that take on him (someone struggling with not wanting his son to face the slings and arrows that going public will bring vs doing good), though I personally am with you and really dislike that angle, but even though I can see that, his death seemed really dumb!

I liked it for all the reasons I've stated why I love MoS. It deals with what are a superhero's responsibilities. Does he have to save those children if it means losing his own "life"? What if Movie Magic was done away with and this went full on Supreme Power? (Jon references the comic sorta when he says he thought the government would show up at their doorstep and take baby Kal away) What if that crazy lady who thought Clark was a representative of providence had instead decided to call the police or the government or something?

Are those brats in the bus worth Clark being a US lab rat? That's what Jonathan had to consider. His son being taken away, used, abused.

This Superman is, after all, not the one who earned iconic status through a string of heroic actions. Nor is he the empathic person of classic Superman- or Clark Kent- who knows how to reassure people with heroic words.

Which again makes people treating him as this icon all the more odd, and I mean that in-universe too, that aspect of of the character simply doesn't fit his skill set. He's a more introverted, rookie hero, and still definitely a hero, but so much doesn't fit message-wise (a big pet peeve of mine in adaptations is importing some aspects of other versions but not incorporating the reasons those aspects are there).

It's like, a large part of why the Luthor stuff can stick to him in BvS is he's this introverted guy who doesn't know how to control his own message. Everyone just seems to be attaching messages to Superman good and bad, and it's like, he's much more, "Look... I'm just here to stop the disasters in front of me. I don't know how to handle this stuff."

He did save the entire world from an alien invasion and prevented the extinction of the human race. I think that's enough to earn you icon status.
 
In any case, I would like to briefly pause the discussion with, in my view, the only acceptable "Superman is Jesus" analogue.

Superman was way cool
Everybody liked Superman
Everybody wanted to hang out with him
Anything he wanted to do, he did
He turned coal into diamonds
And if he wanted to
He could have turned planets into cubes
Or reporters into superhumans
Or coffee boys into turtles

He flew in the air
And walked on the sun
He would write these newspapers
And people would read them
He was really cool
If you were scared or in trouble
You just called for Superman
And he would show up
And you would be saved
That's so cool

He could've boxed better than Ted Grant
He could've lived in the future
He could've baked the most delicious forty cakes in the world
He could've run faster than Barry Allen
He could've ruled better than Curry
Superman could have been stronger-willed than any Green Lantern you can think of
Superman was way cool

He told people to help each other and go into the sun
That's so cool
Superman was so cool

But then some bone monster got jealous of how cool he was
So it killed him
But then he rose from the dead
He rose from the dead, grew a mullet
Then beat up Reed Richards
I mean, that's so cool
Superman was way cool
No wonder there are so many superheroes.
 
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