Ok, I'm not sure how you're getting that. It's a -50 (long range) -20 (hills) +30 (rank) shot, totaling -40. I'm getting an average of 0.84 cohesion damage or an average of 9.36 hits. I think you might have dropped a modifier.
So? They go from +40 to +30. What is the big difference there? Even if we get to the screening phase, this makes a very limited difference. We're talking about a shot with a 41% of no damage, I think the horse artillery can be used better.
Yeah, but just routing the enemy infantry isn't that important in my opinion. Von Trotha carrying out an assault isn't really a danger to us after all, once the enemy gets near they'll get blasted apart.
I don't care just about winning the battle, I want to win a good victory, where we not only kill a few thousands but also capture and rout his army and render it destroyed.
And the thing that stands in the way of destroying his army are these 4 cavalry regiments screening, as fleeing infantry and artillery can be picked apart by chasing cavalry and infantry
Ok, I'm not sure how you're getting that. It's a -50 (long range) -20 (hills) +30 (rank) shot, totaling -40. I'm getting an average of 0.84 cohesion damage or an average of 9.36 hits. I think you might have dropped a modifier.
So? They go from +40 to +30. What is the big difference there? Even if we get to the screening phase, this makes a very limited difference. We're talking about a shot with a 41% of no damage, I think the horse artillery can be used better.
Wait, why are they +40? Shouldn't they just have +20? And I think each +10 is quite important, because it's both guaranteed damage and actually quite a chunk of damage.
A +10 bonus is a +20% damage increase for a normal unit, knocking a unit down from +20 to +10 reduces their output by like 15%. And the damage output from enemy cavalry is quite important because it is the damage most likely to land on our own cavalry through screening.
And we desperately want to preserve our cavalry as much as possible both to have them available in chasing down the enemy and because they are very valuable on the campaign.
Also I just want to clear up that I am not arguing about whether the 5th should be in the east or in the center. I am saying that if its in the east it should shoot the cavalry, whether it should be in the east or center I don't have a good idea yet
I don't care just about winning the battle, I want to win a good victory, where we not only kill a few thousands but also capture and rout his army and render it destroyed.
I'm skeptical that we can outright destroy the Army of the Centre, at least in this battle alone. There's so much artillery firepower that Von Trotha can do a pullback under good cover, by staggering his artillery positioning, even if the cavalry has taken heavy losses.
Rather than aiming to try and wipe out the whole army here, I think we're best suited taking smaller bites out of it when possible but overall simply fighting to inflict attrition and prevent an enemy victory. The VI Army should still be Force-Marching towards us, and they'll be bringing in an additional 2 Hussars in tow. If we can just keep Von Trotha unable to break through us until then, then after this fight we can probably use an overwhelming edge in cavalry (7 Cavalry vs 4) plus light infantry to harass and slow down any attempted withdrawal by Von Trotha until he's forced to fight us again rather than withdraw, this time with an overwhelming numerical advantage.
While taking down some of the cavalry would be nice for that, I don't think it'll be necessary if we've got such a massive edge in cavalry numbers, plus light infantry in support. In which case the main goal in my mind would be weakening other parts of Von Trotha's army, namely the high-cohesion Dwarven infantry that Norn relies on as the backbone of its forces. They're the troops who would be needed both to press home an assault on our positions once they're weakened by artillery, and would, if they're still intact, be relied on to hold the line for other troops to escape (we saw at Brutet what happens when unsupported cavalry are relied upon to be the army's main source of withdrawal cover.)
I'm skeptical that we can outright destroy the Army of the Centre, at least in this battle alone. There's so much artillery firepower that Von Trotha can do a pullback under good cover, by staggering his artillery positioning, even if the cavalry has taken heavy losses.
Rather than aiming to try and wipe out the whole army here, I think we're best suited taking smaller bites out of it when possible but overall simply fighting to inflict attrition and prevent an enemy victory. The VI Army should still be Force-Marching towards us, and they'll be bringing in an additional 2 Hussars in tow. If we can just keep Von Trotha unable to break through us until then, then after this fight we can probably use an overwhelming edge in cavalry (7 Cavalry vs 4) plus light infantry to harass and slow down any attempted withdrawal by Von Trotha until he's forced to fight us again rather than withdraw, this time with an overwhelming numerical advantage.
While taking down some of the cavalry would be nice for that, I don't think it'll be necessary if we've got such a massive edge in cavalry numbers, plus light infantry in support. In which case the main goal in my mind would be weakening other parts of Von Trotha's army, namely the high-cohesion Dwarven infantry that Norn relies on as the backbone of its forces. They're the troops who would be needed both to press home an assault on our positions once they're weakened by artillery, and would, if they're still intact, be relied on to hold the line for other troops to escape.
The thing is, if Von Trotha does a slow, leapfrogging pullback, that leaves us a lot of time to just conventionally charge and break through his weakened infantry line.
So if Von Trotha does try it, we just overwhelm him with a traditional Arnese charge he cannot handle.
Weakening the dwarves for the campaign is not really that impactful. If we kill 250 from every regiment, he can consolidate them and effectively lose a grand total of 1 regiment, the same effect we would have achieved just by capturing one.
And for the battle, keep in mind that an frontal assault cannot succeed. The big worry is that he realises this and does not assault, because an assault is absolutely ruinous.
To clarify what I mean, the assaulting units will receive a total average of like 600 hits each turn while still needing to dig out our units in cover with very low ranged artillery support themselves
His infantry assaulting Kinzberg will disintegrate whether we weaken it beforehand or not.
This doesn't mean that we don't want to shoot them if we get the chance, but it means that if we get the chance to achieve other stuff other than weakening his assault we should take it.
I am honestly not fully confident in being able to actually catch up to Von Trotha after his retreat. The 6th will have force marched already and struggle to keep up with us and their troops lack the experience needed for the delicate task of harassing and delaying the enemy, especially when he has veteran arnese cavalry as screens.
He also has the advantage of being in familiar territory, where he has access to local information and friendly locals we don't have.
Generally, i think that if he retreats with artillery cover we will be able to greatly benefit from the cover to the sides, shielding cavalry from the enemy until it's too close to them.
Without a sufficient enemy cavalry screen he would need large amounts of infantry, which would take away from his desperate holding back of the main infantry charge
Brutet really shouldnt be taken as a blueprint. We had incredible good artillery rolls to prevent the enemy cavalry from interfering. We cant rely on rolling 100s to sweep away the enemy cavalry cover.
keep in mind that the enemy has 40% of his effective strenght on screening and cavalry is superior to a normal infantry in the screening role
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Its a bit crude but this is how i imagine the second phase of the battle will go.
his infantry tries to move back in the center, our infantry follow hot on their heels while both artilleries try to hit infantry to achieve/prevent the full rout.
Meanwhile, our cavalry advances along the flanks, trying to hit the enemy artillery and the infantry from the back, with the enemy cavalry intercepting them.
Hmm, it may actually be a good idea to have our infantry frontline ready fire in preparation of the enemy attack, because there is so much firepower that we have a good chance to rout the enemy before they can actually enter melee phase and do damage.
Just dwarves charging our defenses, losing 200 troops to close range shooting and running away before they even engage the defenders.
Von Trotha can be glad that there is no mud and the second line can actually take advantage of the sacrifice of the first line to enter melee range... Only for it to die the next turn.
Man, I still don't believe that he will actually assault us, it's such a meatgrinder.
Tbh if he actually assaults us my entire second phase concept doesn't really apply, doesn't it? His infantry would get destroyed in such a swift and brutal fashion that our infantry will be chasing a collection of routes units and preventing his entire infantry arm from actually reforming until they overrun his artillery.
We destroy the Cohesion of his entire infantry in 1.5 turns should he attack kinzberg
Trotha doesn't see the infantry at Kinzberg, so what he does see is infantry and cavalry on his left and some cavalry on his right. Given that the 28th is moving into the Sohnsholz forest, Trotha will probably suspect that other infantry units will be there too. I think it's likely that Trotha is trying to match our position, by positioning troops on the flanks.
We could also try charging the enemy horse artillery with Guillory's Hussars and or the 55th and the 108th. The Prov. Elv Artillery hasn't been set up yet. I am not sure if Trotha will prepare for the possibility. He's not a strong believer in cavalry, though he may assume we would use it because of Arnese+Hob. We can guarantee a charge SW of the enemy horse artillery if it doesn't move since no enemy units can reach there (the visible cavalry can't reach there in time). This could be bait, but I think if that were the case then Trotha's units would be in a better position to take advantage of that fact, so I don't think it is likely. Trotha will probably just set up with the horse artillery.
My own plan for reacting to Trotha's possible bait
-[X] Plan Cautious Charge with forward repositioning
-[X] Picture of the middle of the map, Picture of entire map -[X] Flanking forces Orders
-[X] 19th Half Pfd: Rapid Move NE, Move NE
-[X] 16th Half Pfd: Move NW
-[X] 28th Half Pfd: Move W, NW
-[X] 5th Hob H. Art: Move 4*W
-[X] 42nd Elv: Search
-[X] 45th Elv: Search -[X] Cav Orders
-[X] 55th Elv Hsr: Charge 14th Elv H Art (W,5*NW); [abort charge and return 1 NW of starting position] IF [path is blocked by enemy units OR horse artillery moves out of range]
-[X] Guillory- 341st Charge 14th Elv H Art,[ abort charge and return IF path is blocked by enemy units OR Horse artillery moves out of range]
-[X] Guillory - 350th: Move to the forested hill 2*N of your position [provides sight on enemy in the Räuberholz basin next turn]
-[X] 13th Hob Lanc: Move NE [better concealment, plus slightly more movement range for the initial charge]
-[X] 108th Elv Hsr: Ready Charge 500m [2*W, Then 3* (NW - W); Return to tile 2W of starting position] -[X] Main Position Orders
-[X] 200th Hobs: Ready Fire [NE, Long Range]
-[X] 251st Hobs: Ready Fire [Ne, Long Range]
-[X] 72nd Hum: Move W,W
-[X] 148th Hum: Move W,W
-[X] 31st Elv Art: Fire At 33rd Dwa
-[X] 10th Hum Art: Fire at 33rd Dwa
-[X] 84th Elv Art: Fire at 33rd Dwa
-[X] HQ: Resupply 84th
Movement on the corner of tiles represent halfway movement between tiles.
Grey units represent the current position of units that move this turn.
Black units represent the end position of units this turn.
Green squares represent our friendly HQ.
Opaque red units represent suspected positions of enemy units.
Red arrows represent the charge orders.
Yellow arrows represent ready charges.
Reasoning: This plan sets up charge orders with the option to abort the charge if the charge isn't viable. This gives us the best of both worlds, achieving a decisive defeat against the horse artillery if it's a genuine blunder while inflicting no damage if this is a trap.
With the enemy showing clear signs of a commitment to the central corridor (3/4 dwarven confirmed to be there based on turn orders, plus at least one human infantry), we have solid intel that no charge across the Rotholz is coming. It's time to reposition our horse artillery for battle, we need them to engage the main force rather the flank screens in cover.
The halflings are moved into the Kirschenholz, which allows them shots at any screens foolish enough to move forward. Due their position, range attacks against them are nearly impossible [disadvantage at -50 or worse], while melee or cavalry charges would require the enemy to position themselves in our line of fire, while also dealing very little damage.
I do think I agree with moving the 5th into the center.
Von Trotha is charging along the centre quite recklessly, so even if he wants to move units through the Rotholz that detachment will be slow and struggle to reach us in time to have an effect.
I think I'd prefer more focus on punishing an enemy attempt to hit our charge, like ready charges against his cavalry though.
Is the 5th supposed to move 4 tiles west in your plan RR?
Because I think we probably want to set it up a bit more south. Von Trothas infantry will move closer over two turns until it is set up at which point it could threaten a 4xW Horse guns.
We do have sight on the Räuberwald already, the 84th has 8 spotting on nearly all of it. The hussars would give us sight on a few tiles directly behind Sarnscheid though, but I am not convinced that that's very important.
Why are you moving the humans w,w? It'll block the 84th from using it's spotting to keep the Räuberholz seen and we aren't actually under threat yet.
Do we want to shoot the 33rd? They are a Teacher, so it's effectively a neutral CO. I am not sure if we want to search out good COs to bombard instead or if it makes more sense to keep enemy revealed COs to a minimum.
Is the 5th supposed to move 4 tiles west in your plan RR?
Because I think we probably want to set it up a bit more south. Von Trothas infantry will move closer over two turns until it is set up at which point it could threaten a 4xW Horse guns.
I'm moving them 4 west, for the sake of bombarding the screens that will set up around Sarnscheid.
I don't think the enemy Infantry will advance to our position. Right now they are setting up screens for the horse artillery, Trotha is just taking the position. If they move forward, they would run into our unopposed cavalry ready charges, which destroys morale quite quickly [7 cavalry damage against dwarves, loosing 14 cohesion a turn while getting closer. Add the artillery damage and Trotha would be loosing at least a unit per turn before the horse artillery bolts]. Trotha has no artillery cover against the charges nor can he hold out, so the ready charge would make him run out of good units quickly while our horse artillery can simply move back once they get to close.
It's also against Trotha's general MO (only charges with infantry after a lengthy bombardment), so we can afford to set them up a bit closer.
Do we want to shoot the 33rd? They are a Teacher, so it's effectively a neutral CO. I am not sure if we want to search out good COs to bombard instead or if it makes more sense to keep enemy revealed COs to a minimum.
It's the only forward unit in open terrain and we know 2 enemy COs. Shooting them maximizes damage on a horse artillery screen, which is the tactical consideration right now.
It's the only unit in open terrain and we know 2 enemy COs. Shooting them maximizes damage on a horse artillery screen, which is the tactical consideration right now.
I want maximum damage against the enemy infantry, because that is the thing we can achieve right now. The field artillery isn't set up to shoot at cavalry, plus this phase of battle hinges on damaging enough of the enemy screens to enter the pursuit phase by forcing a retreat.
Do you have another suggestion for the artillery? Because any other shot would do worse damage on account of -20 cover. We picked a attritional battle, so let us deal the best attrition we can.
I want maximum damage against the enemy infantry, because that is the thing we can achieve right now. The field artillery isn't set up to shoot at cavalry, plus this phase of battle hinges on damaging enough of the enemy screens to enter the pursuit phase by forcing a retreat.
Do you have another suggestion for the artillery? Because any other shot would do worse damage on account of -20 cover. We picked a attritional battle, so let us deal the best attrition we can.
The question is if shooting a mediocre CO is better than shooting an unknown, revealing it and possible shooting a better target than mediocre, but possibly giving him an advantage too
The question is if shooting a mediocre CO is better than shooting an unknown, revealing it and possible shooting a better target than mediocre, but possibly giving him an advantage too
Right, but is there any reason to shoot the back? I don't think so, especially as the unit is very close to hill cover/gaps in our field artillery. If we rout infantry at the front, we can force covered units to be cycled into open terrain to protect against cavalry charges, thus dealing more damage overall. I don't put a lot of value on revealing unit traits of units are in the rear that won't see combat for now.
Right, but is there any reason to shoot the back? I don't think so, especially as the unit is very close to hill cover/gaps in our field artillery. If we rout infantry at the front, we can force covered units to be cycled into open terrain to protect against cavalry charges, thus dealing more damage overall. I don't put a lot of value on revealing unit traits of units are in the rear that won't see combat for now.
I don't understand how that would increase the damage we deal.
If Von Trotha needs to put infantry in the open to screen his artillery, we will be able to shoot at them always.
So whether we actually shoot them or shoot infantry in the open elsewhere doesn't actually change the damage we deal.
But generally I don't think that infantry screening his HArtillery is going to be a factor, because we will either destroy it or it will retreat back and in both cases he doesn't have to put infantry in the open to screen it.
Also generally in this battle I don't see the enemy assault as a credible danger, so I am mostly looking towards positioning for the second phase, where Von Trotha retreats and we will have a mass charge of our entire army after him, which is where there is the most danger to our army and the most opportunity to deal damage to him
Given the use of attached troops for this and the orders we give can't be 100% clear I'm getting real charge of the light brigade vibes from this.
"Lord Raglan wishes the cavalry to advance rapidly to the front, follow the enemy, and try to prevent the enemy carrying away the guns. Troop horse artillery may accompany. French cavalry is on your left. Immediate".
We should 100% do this because tragi-heroic myth making is part of nation building and it is for future historians to argue about whether it was in fact tactically necessary to dislodge the horse artillery from that hill.
Given the use of attached troops for this and the orders we give can't be 100% clear I'm getting real charge of the light brigade vibes from this.
"Lord Raglan wishes the cavalry to advance rapidly to the front, follow the enemy, and try to prevent the enemy carrying away the guns. Troop horse artillery may accompany. French cavalry is on your left. Immediate".
We should 100% do this because tragi-heroic myth making is part of nation building and it is for future historians to argue about whether it was in fact tactically necessary to dislodge the horse artillery from that hill.
I don't think we should deliberately sacrifice the allied hussars, we can just have them cover our own charging cavalry if that's a concern.
The HArtillery isn't a danger so it's defeat isn't tactically necessary, but it's a elite artillery regiment so killing it is great, especially if we get their guns from it
I will keep my response succinct, since we are arguing about an action that is according to your provided reasoning roughly equivalent. Shooting the 20th Dwa will likely result in the same damage as shooting the 33rd Dwa [85% for same damage due to traits not related to raw damage]. The chance for higher damage and a combat benefit is unlikely, and luck-dependent [possibility of incompetent/unsteady CO vs. possibility of def. genius/positive traits like rapid or off. genius].
We shoot at enemy infantry in order to eventually rout them. Routing units at a forward position decreases Trotha's ability to screen cavalry charges (fewer blockers) and it deals damage against adjacent units via adjacency damage. Shooting units in the clusters around forward positions is preferable for these reasons, since it deals more dmg & opens up the ability to cavalry charge/force a retreat when these position can't be held. The more damage we deal against the forward units, the more onsided the battle resultwill be due to a shorter artillery duel.
Since the 20th Dwa is able to easily move into areas we can't shoot, damage dealt against them can't result in routs or long-term atttrition [the 20th can rest]. It has no meaningful impact, and a chance to reveal a positive trait that would give Trotha an advantage locally [rapid would really change how this unit gets used]. For these reasons, I favor attrition against the screens we can shoot repeatedly at, rather than against a unit that could move out firing range.
I will keep my response succinct, since we are arguing about an action that is according to your provided reasoning roughly equivalent. Shooting the 20th Dwa will likely result in the same damage as shooting the 33rd Dwa [85% for same damage due to traits not related to raw damage]. The chance for higher damage and a combat benefit is unlikely, and luck-dependent [possibility of incompetent/unsteady CO vs. possibility of def. genius/positive traits like rapid or off. genius].
We shoot at enemy infantry in order to eventually rout them. Routing units at a forward position decreases Trotha's ability to screen cavalry charges (fewer blockers) and it deals damage against adjacent units via adjacency damage. Shooting units in the clusters around forward positions is preferable for these reasons, since it deals more dmg & opens up the ability to cavalry charge/force a retreat when these position can't be held. The more damage we deal against the forward units, the more onsided the battle resultwill be due to a shorter artillery duel.
Since the 20th Dwa is able to easily move into areas we can't shoot, damage dealt against them can't result in routs or long-term atttrition [the 20th can rest]. It has no meaningful impact, and a chance to reveal a positive trait that would give Trotha an advantage locally [rapid would really change how this unit gets used]. For these reasons, I favor attrition against the screens we can shoot repeatedly at, rather than against a unit that could move out firing range.
I do generally agree that the choice of target won't have a big outcome on the battle either way, these units could effectively swap places next turn just moving if Von Trotha wanted to and nothing would really change.
I am missing about it more for the doctrinal thoughts, about whether it is better to take a shot against the known neutral co or the mystery box.
And here I think that offensive genius would actually the best case scenario for a blind shot - it doesn't give him any new approach like rapid, it just makes what they want to do better. But if we know that it's an off genius it's an immediate priority target, because if we shoot it with artillery it can't attack back, while in melee it would get an attack.
At the same time, incompets are actually the lowest priority target to me, because if they get into melee they do less damage than normal COs, so I'd rather rout the normal unit and let the incompetent one through
I do think that we aren't really going to effectively reduce his screening by shooting infantry, because he has a lot of them and cavalry are the big screening threats either way, though I do like damage against the infantry.
Tbh I am not really that excited for the cohesion damage - he will likely get most of them routed once anyway when attacking us anyway so I care more about the casualties and pressure we create by attacking him.
Though this may be a different in outlook between my focus on positioning for the second phase compared to your focus on ensuring we win the first phase.
I may simulate some attacks from him once I am home to check whether my confidence in easily defeating them is correct.
It is the case that Von Trothas ability to do an actual charge gets rapidly degraded tho. We've already knocked out one of his units for like 5 turns of resting if they shouldn't break at the first shot and he only has 10 of them.
And of course, if he just sends 4 they'll just get obliberated before reaching out frontline, so he needs a certain concentration of troops.
Something I have generally noticed, it it intended that the reserves of the units don't really matter?
With 10 munitions and supplies units could do the action for like the entire battle and are unlikely to run out of them.
If a dwarven unit consumes their entire supplies and breaks after that they would have lost like 500 of their troops in the process lol
-[X] Guillory- 341st Charge 14th Elv H Art,[ abort charge and return IF Horse artillery moves out of range]
-[X] Guillory - 350th: Move NW,NW [provides sight on enemy in the Räuberholz basin next turn]
Hmm, aren't these orders too specific? I can't remember if we're allied to give orders to individual units of Guillory's rather than Guillory's forces as a whole.
Actually, thinking about it, @Photomajig You said we could make these kinds of If statements to abort a charge for our own units, but can we do the same for Allied ones, given that our orders for them are supposed to tend towards being more general?
Hmm, aren't these orders too specific? I can't remember if we're allied to give orders to individual units of Guillory's rather than Guillory's forces as a whole.
We were allowed specific movement orders during the first round. I'm telling one hussar to charge s target and the other to move towards a specific position. As the rules regarding allied order granularity aren't entirely clear, I think this should be in line with our previous commands.
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