Army of Liberty: a Fantasy Revolutionary Warfare Quest

Looking from this image from RR in the counterarguments section of his planmaking post about how exposed our units on the right flank would be to enemy artillery fire (easily within minimum range), I don't think having an artillery piece on the hill would actually do anything to stop any such push.
To be honest, this is why I would have liked to deploy on that flank, to prevent his artillery from coming that close.

The three hills in the middle cannot be easily shot at by the artillery in the picture. They could be a good strongpoint, if supported by horse artillery. That said, those hills do not need to be held at all costs, but they are defensible at least until his artillery reaches that position. That means we can, and should, bleed him for them. Defending them will cause him to take heavy losses to take them, and our units can easily retreat to safety behind the hills when if we choose to retreat.

Just setting up some of his massive artillery park in those positions seems like a perfectly good way to force us out of the hills without even needing to commit troops to an assault.
We could still take shots on his screening units while he moves in and sets up the artillery.
 
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To be honest, this is why I would have liked to deploy on that flank, to prevent his artillery from coming that close.
You can't use horse artillery to prevent enemy artillery from setting up in the mountains. That is completely infeasible.
That means we can, and should, bleed him for them. Defending them will cause him to take heavy losses to take them, and our units can easily retreat to safety behind the hills when if we choose to retreat.
So your plan is "Keep the horse artillery at the side, until they have to be withdrawn, then withdraw them, allowing us to take a few shots into the forest if the enemy chooses the route"? What advantage does this have?
 
To be honest, this is why I would have liked to deploy on that flank, to prevent his artillery from coming that close.

The three hills in the middle cannot be easily shot at by the artillery in the picture. They could be a good strongpoint, if supported by horse artillery. That said, those hills do not need to be held at all costs, but they are defensible at least until his artillery reaches that position. That means we can, and should, bleed him for them. Defending them will cause him to take heavy losses to take them, and our units can easily retreat to safety behind the hills when if we choose to retreat.
That requires him to actually commit forces to an assault where they'd be within range of our artillery though, instead of just setting up the artillery and bombarding us until we leave. It doesn't seem like there's anything that'd actually force him to push hard. Judging by his actions this turn, Von Trotha doesn't seem to be in any rush, so if the artillery bombardment needs more time to be effective due to positioning, he can just wait. And his army has a lot of very skilled artillery crews (and at least one skilled artillery CO) that could just keep on bombarding us if we try and defend the hills.
 
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So your plan is "Keep the horse artillery at the side, until they have to be withdrawn, then withdraw them, allowing us to take a few shots into the forest if the enemy chooses the route"? What advantage does this have?
My current plan is "keep the horse artillery on the side for this turn only, then re-evaluate the situation".

As for the advantage of defending said hills if he attacks there, I believe we can do good damage to him before he can force us away from there. Even with his artillery setup in the optimal positions, there are defensible hills there he cannot target with artillery. What is the downside of defending there, if he attacks?
 
No I meant deploy our whole army on that flank, during turn 0. Holding Rotholz and having a line of infantry in the valley would have prevented him from taking up said positions for his artillery.
If that is your plan, you are really having tunnel vision about one scenario among many.
This is a misunderstanding on your part. Why would he need to enter the hill before his artillery has arrived? He pushes our units away from said hills; then waits and Rests his units back to full Cohesion, safe behind the hills.
You have an incomplete understanding of the key points of this plan.

Lets skip the whole boring arrival phase and say the enemy artillery is there, including infantry.

We used the 15 turns of movement to set up blocking forces, probably a hob/human mix. Trotha decided to take the hill. The infantry now needs to get onto the hill.

Trotha has now picked a melee against superior infantry, a melee where we have 4 support artillery against his 0. This is a battle he is likely to loose. If he wins, he now faces the truly hard part.

Each of the enemy artillery units needs 3 turns of set-up before firing. 2 for movement, 1 for ready fire. During this time the hill tile needs to be onoccupied and screened against enemy infantry. This means setting up forces in front of them, in medium range of our artillery.

3 turns of full artillery bombardment, against infantry in the open, with limited space for cycling replacements in. If anything goes wrong, Trotha loose the artillery in our charge. This plan just doesn't work, and it's the one you built your deployment around countering.
 
As for the advantage of defending said hills if he attacks there, I believe we can do good damage to him before he can force us away from there. Even with his artillery setup in the optimal positions, there are defensible hills there he cannot target with artillery. What is the downside of defending there, if he attacks?
Keeping the horse artillery there requires screening in the case of cavalry, screening that is inside enemy medium range. We bleed (2 artillery vs one), while taking worse shots thanks to the cover, all for 1 normal shot (plains, -20), 2 shots in cover (50) and 1 shot in the open field (-20). Oh, and if he doesn't solely attack trough Rotholz, we miss a valuable opportunity to make one side bleed, necessitating more fire towards the second thrust. Defending Rotholz doesn't give us anything.
 
That requires him to actually commit forces to an assault where they'd be within range of our artillery though, instead of just setting up the artillery and bombarding us until we leave. It doesn't seem like there's anything that'd actually force him to push hard. Judging by his actions this turn, Von Trotha doesn't seem to be in any rush, so if the artillery bombardment needs more time to be effective due to positioning, he can just wait. And his army has a lot of very skilled artillery crews (and at least one skilled artillery CO) that could just keep on bombarding us if we try and defend the hills.
There are positions in those hills straight up not reachable by his artillery (marked in green). The position in orange can be hit by only one of the artillery, so it is also ok to defend at, provided we have the horse artillery helping defend. Good luck to him at pushing one of our high-quality units out of the green hill. We can also do Hobgoblin countercharges once he takes the hill positions.

View: https://imgur.com/a/1EIUo80
If that is your plan, you are really having tunnel vision about one scenario among many.
It is not my plan anymore, it was my plan for turn 0 deployment.

Lets skip the whole boring arrival phase and say the enemy artillery is there, including infantry.
You started with roughly the correct position, but not with the correct move on his part. Why would he send his infantry over the hills, when he can do this:

View: https://imgur.com/a/FFQBQLC

That is, he brings his artillery up to the hills in the center, where they can fire on our troops. The Rotholz approach was simply the safest way to bring the artillery here.
 
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You started with roughly the correct position, but not with the correct move on his part. Why would he send his infantry over the hills, when he can do this:
The exact hills don't matter, only the distance to our forces does. Setting up on Rotholz involves a even worse version of this problem, since the artillery "occupies" 2 tiles for 5 turns (forest costs 5 movement), then the 2 next tiles for 3/4 turns (3+1 for woods). The fundamental issue of exposing screens or loosing your artillery remains, regardless of the exact hills. We can set up infantry just as well behind the Rotholz hills, since this assumes this plan requires an absence of artillery in the centre.
 
The exact hills don't matter, only the distance to our forces does. Setting up on Rotholz involves a even worse version of this problem, since the artillery "occupies" 2 tiles for 5 turns (forest costs 5 movement), then the 2 next tiles for 3/4 turns (3+1 for woods). The fundamental issue of exposing screens or loosing your artillery remains, regardless of the exact hills. We can set up infantry just as well behind the Rotholz hills, since this assumes this plan requires an absence of artillery in the centre.
Hmm, I think we have a fundemantal disagreement on how and when artillery should be screened. The way I see it, he can move up his artillery in the forest, with no screening needed since we cannot reach or even see the artillery. It is only when they reach the final hill positions, and start setting up that he needs to move in his screens. This is when he moves his screens in, allowing is just one, or a maximum of two turns before his artillery starts shooting. Or better yet, he does not screen as much as he launches the assault he must launch anyway, with his assault infantry now having artillery support at medium range.

View: https://imgur.com/a/gdnvtgy

Moving in like this, with his screens moving in front of the artillery/him launching an assault when we spot his artillery.
 
There are positions in those hills straight up not reachable by his artillery (marked in green). The position in orange can be hit by only one of the artillery, so it is also ok to defend at, provided we have the horse artillery helping defend. Good luck to him at pushing one of our high-quality units out of the green hill. We can also do Hobgoblin countercharges once he takes the hill positions.

View: https://imgur.com/a/1EIUo80

It is not my plan anymore, it was my plan for turn 0 deployment.


You started with roughly the correct position, but not with the correct move on his part. Why would he send his infantry over the hills, when he can do this:

View: https://imgur.com/a/FFQBQLC

That is, he brings his artillery up to the hills in the center, where they can fire on our troops. The Rotholz approach was simply the safest way to bring the artillery here.

Tbh if he sets up two artillery to cover the Rotholz valley, that's when we retreat. That's also two artillery that can't affect the road as well so it's at least a nice way to delay him.

The point of the 5th being over there is to delay and damage him while he's setting up. It's a limited window, and I am very confident he is setting up to do some form of push over there, so I really don't see why now we would want to let him set up unmolested.
 
My reasoning here is that I want them as a escort force against cavalry attacks on the horse artillery, which requires having them close for reliable interception. We can regain stealth easily enough by moving them back behind the hills and we don't need them behind our lines. The elven units are put on the hill mostly as scouts and to put them out of the path of the horse artillery.
Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to your plan, I was referring to the plan that won. But more info about the reasoning of people's plan is always nice.

Also, it feels like people are overestimating how dangerous flank attacks can be. The cavalry attack at the south at Brutet didn't occur and the Halfling attack through the forest didn't do much.
 
The way I see it, he can move up his artillery in the forest, with no screening needed since we cannot reach or even see the artillery.
I don't want to repeat myself, but no. If there is no screen in front of artillery, we can charge in one turn onto artillery in open fields (3 movement). If this happens, they die over the next 2 turns. And I we have LoS on the hills near the Basin, meaning we get info on the artillery entering the basin 13 turns or so before the set-up. There is no way to keep this hidden.
The point of the 5th being over there is to delay and damage him while he's setting up. It's a limited window, and I am very confident he is setting up to do some form of push over there, so I really don't see why now we would want to let him set up unmolested.
There is no evidence for that and we have evidence to the contrary. If he wanted to push across Rotholz, more than 2 elven infantry would be in the rough area. Instead we are seeing the dwarves in the centre-west, indicating some kind of early positioning involving the centre. We have LoS on the hills and no unit is making an effort to cross it. If there is some push, it will be prepared much later.
 
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Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to your plan, I was referring to the plan that won. But more info about the reasoning of people's plan is always nice.

Also, it feels like people are overestimating how dangerous flank attacks can be. The cavalry attack at the south at Brutet didn't occur and the Halfling attack through the forest didn't do much.
To be honest, I have noticed that I tend to be the paranoid one in this thread when it comes to flanking, especially during Brutet. It feels like a missed opportunity that I did not make Negaverse-me overly paranoid about getting flanked in the omake.
 
I don't want to repeat myself, but no. If there is no screen in front of artillery, we can charge in one turn onto artillery in open fields (3 movement). If this happens, they die over the next 2 turns. And I we have LoS on the hills near the Basin, meaning we get info on the artillery entering the basin 13 turns or so before the set-up. There is no way to keep this hidden.
The position of the artillery shown here is much further away than 3 movement?
View: https://imgur.com/a/gdnvtgy
Anyway, can he not move his infantry in to screen or launch an assault as soon as the artillery becomes visible to us on the hills? It's not impossible, in my opinion. Also, as mentioned before, us charging means we have to take a risk, and go on the offensive, in what should be a defensive battle.
 
Wouldn't it be an obsession with doing flanking maneuvers that'd fit better for a Negaverse though?
Propably it would? I was thinking more along the lines of being an exaggerated parody of myself, but going in the opposite direction would likely be more appropriate. In any case, it would be cool to continue that negaverse at some point.
 
The position of the artillery shown here is much further away than 3 movement?
And it needs twice the screening due to having more border with the central corridor.
Anyway, can he not move his infantry in to screen or launch an assault as soon as the artillery becomes visible to us on the hills? It's not impossible, in my opinion.
If we move forces to block the southern hills, no. If the forces move at the same time, it's a coin flip if his artillery dies. If he does it before, those forces get blown to smithereens by artillery.
 
If we move forces to block the southern hills, no. If the forces move at the same time, it's a coin flip if his artillery dies. If he does it before, those forces get blown to smithereens by artillery.
Hmm, at that point it comes down to timing, but since his screening forces must move only 1-3 hexes, they should be fast enough more often than not. In addition, he has other tools in his toolbox to protect the artillery: cavalry ready charges, supporting fire from artillery setup further back, a feint in which his artillery does not setup after all, but disappears behind the hills again...

You can not convince me that a tactic that involves first letting his artillery and whole army to get within medium range of us uncontested, then immediately charging his artillery when it shows itself comes with no risk to us. It gives him a chance, which is more than can be said for a infantry assault over open ground against us, where he only uses his artillery inefficiently at long range.
 
Looking at the map, if the 155th goes for a full march, at the end of this turn they'd be just about to enter the forest (2 Movement to get across the plains, 1/3 Movement required for Infantry to get through a Forest tile.)

Hmm, since they wouldn't be completely in the forest, if we deploy our Horse Artillery now, would they be able to get a shot off? We could do that and grab the Ambush advantage, then pack them up and redeploy them somewhere else to get off another Ambush.

My understanding is that the elves would move before the artillery fired and so would be in the forest. However, long range in plains and medium range in forests are identical. Range is one of many modifiers, it's big and it's the most easily effected by maneuver but it is not the only modifier.


That requires him to actually commit forces to an assault where they'd be within range of our artillery though, instead of just setting up the artillery and bombarding us until we leave. It doesn't seem like there's anything that'd actually force him to push hard. Judging by his actions this turn, Von Trotha doesn't seem to be in any rush, so if the artillery bombardment needs more time to be effective due to positioning, he can just wait. And his army has a lot of very skilled artillery crews (and at least one skilled artillery CO) that could just keep on bombarding us if we try and defend the hills.

Not to single you out but why don't you think Von Trotha is in a rush? He had a few options for movement speed
1) move cavalry as far forward as possible
2) keep cavalry and infantry together and move at best infantry speed (this is what he did)
3) move slower so the guns can keep up.

As I think was previously discussed 1) would be suicidal (if possibly effective) I would say it looks like Von Trotha is moving at best (sane) speed at this time. (obviously we have one data point so it means little either way)
 
On a lighter note, I love Granger. To the point that I don't want to put the 10th at any sort of risk, in order to not have him die to an unlucky crit. Strategizing will be super difficult if we get attached to all our COs.
"Twenty sou that I will. My boys know their business, sir," David Granger replies, puffing up his chest. "It'll fly true. I feel it in my bones. Same tug in the gut that I felt when you bought that horse from the travelers' camp last week. I just knew it was going to have that bad lung. Didn't I measure the thorax for you, sir, and yet you insisted, and now you have the poor beast wheezing after barely a day's ride. Captain Allard, by all gods known and unknown do not allow me to witness you slouching on duty again, sir! Ach, young people these days. What was I saying, sir?"
 
Related to the discussion on the voting and arguments being hard to follow, I noticed during the setup phase it was actually hard for me to keep track of what the plans being discussed actually contained and what the differences were. So as a public service of sorts, here are the two proposed plans so far.

Honestly, it would be nice if there was some way to automatically threadmark proposed plans during the voting period, so they can be easily found...

Anyways, might as well start the vote.

-[X] Plan Full Artillery Skirmish
-[X] Pictured deployment
-[X] 10th Hum Art: Fire at 31st Dwa [Brilliant, -6 cohesion currently]
-[X] 84th Elv Art: Fire at 31st Dwa
-[X] 31st Elv Art: Fire at 31st Dwa
-[X] 45th Elv: Move NW
-[X] 42nd Elv: Move NW
-[X] 5th Horse Hob Artillery: Move 5*W
-[X] 28th Half Pfd: Move NW,NW,W [Half Movement, full movement complete after next turn]
-[X] 13th Hob Lanc: Move 3*W, NW [no reason to bind our cavalry behind our back currently, we might set up ready charge later]
-[X] 108th Elv Hsr: Move W, NW
-[X] 55th Elv Hsr: Move NW, 2*NE,NW [horse artillery cavalry escort]
-[X] Guillory Hussars: Hide
-[X] 251st Hobs: Search [unlikely to yield results, but they are discount elves]
-[X] 200th Hobs: Ready Fire [500m, N]
-[X] 72nd Hum: Hide
-[X] 148th Hum: Ready Fire [500m, NW]
-[X] 16th Half Pfd: Hide
-[X] 19th Half Pfd: Rapid Move NW, Hide
-[X] HQ: resupply 10th Hum Art

This plan aims for a minor repositioning of forces, most notably our horse artillery in a position in the central corridor. The push trough Rotholz has yet to materialize, with the enemy likely keeping most of their forces in the central corridor. Since the enemy is unlikely to charge with all their cavalry into our medium artillery range, it's prudent to position the only other artillery unit skilled enough to reliably deal damage along long ranges where they can skirmish at long ranges, not keep them out of the fight in case a flanking group will arrive.

Seriously, I think we would be kneecapping ourselves greatly if we forgo the fire from the 5th. An illustration of just how much they can skirmish from their position (yellow is the medium range [base +10], red is the long range [base -20]). Adding the horse artillery to the mix would increase our damage from 5.47 to 8.32, while allowing shots at nearly the entire enemy line and giving our best unit much more experience. It gets even better if the enemy starts coming closer. We are set up for slow attrition, we should use all available tools for it.

1.
An actual flanking trough Rotholz has to leave the hills and jump blindly into medium range of our artillery. Once they leave, we can slaugther them. We gain no major advantage by holding the hills, and keeping our horse artillery on a way where they could only shot a flanking force is a poor choice during the skirmish. So I'm proposing to keep our horse artillery in the flexible centre, where it is guarantueed to shoot units unless the entire army crosses into the Rotholz. A flanking force trough the Rotholz is uncertain, units being in long range of the centre is virtually guarantueed for the sake of screening. Trotha moving units across the centre is the guess with the least assumptions.
1.1 Related: Why do we need to have artillery at Rotholz? We currently don't.

Notice how this response fails to address the plausible scenario of Trotha simply not flanking. If we don't flank, we loose damage and experience for our best artillery unit. Current movements indicate no plan for a push across Rotholz, but an initial set-up in the centre.

My major criticism of this the Rotholz Infantry + Artillery from the enemy perspective is the overfixation on avoiding our long ranged fire, while ignoring the resulting vulnerability of placing cannons on a hill side after 15 turns of march. The sheer length of this movement and subsequent retreat alone is an issue, plus the lack of information on our positions across the hill. 15 turns of artillery movement are deeply unnattractive parts of a plan, plus the chance of loosing them during the retreat. Then 3 turns spend on having to screen the guns so we don't kill them by charging over the hill top, time which would kill much of the enemy core from attrition alone. A plan that involves a coinflip of the artillery surviving the set-up. Doing this would be at odds with what Trotha could consider reasonable.

But what if the enemy actually flanks from Rotholz with something more expendable, like a small number of infantry? We are already able to deal with that: Move in reaction forces to melee the enemy once they leave the hills, than use our medium range firepower to kill any forces that cross into the area via artillery fire. Keeping the horse artillery on the hill artillery doesn't add to our ability to defend against it, it just slightly adds to the damage if the enemy flanks, while severly reducing our damage if the enemy plans involve the centre (8.3 with horse artillery -> 5.3 currently). My point is the horse artillery belongs in the centre, dealing damage and gaining artillery experience UNLESS there is a need for them at the side.

2.
For one, his cavalry isn't set up for early aggression (no forward scouting). He is said to rarely use his cavalry for things other than screening, so he would likely only commit to a charge when it truly favours him. Here, charges could be intercepted by our own cavalry via ready charge and run into medium range of our artillery. Such an exchange would not be good for his screens. We have more cavalry than him, are better able to intercept and cover the charge location with fairly heavy artillery fire and could still flee, from that position. Overall, charging would be nearly blind and severely damage his cavalry in an unfavourable exchange, making this unlikely.

3. Rotholz as important threat vector(artillery set up on the hills)

Right, that idea. Putting artillery trough takes at least 4+10 = 14 turns of movement once he gets them near the hills, meaning they are lost with absolute certainty in the pursuit phase if the assault goes wrong. That alone would probably be a deterrent for most generals.
This is only where the problems with this assault start. You need to actually put them on the hill (2 turns) and set up (3rd turn), during which time the artillery needs to be shielded against melee and cavalry attacks from our side of the hills. This forces screening infantry in the open for at least 3 turns, during which we deal an avg of 17 cohesion damage a turn against the open infantry. Meaning he would loose most of his dwarves during the set-up phase (~ 18?, plus damage from cohesion routing and infantry fire/melee, plus running into cavalry ready charges). After these 3 turns of heavy fire he needs to cycle new infantry for screening in, meaning he has 6 infantry -3 screens left for the assault (2 humans, 1 dwarf, 1 nymph and 2 elves), who will be taking melee damage from our fresh units.

All for the big prize of bombarding our infantry at -60 rather than -90 and avoiding some long-ranged shots. Suffice to say, if he tries that he doesn't have a sufficient infantry group left to assault us with.

[X] Plan: Wait and Search
-[X] 10th Hum Art: Fire at 31st Dwa
-[X] 84th Elv Art: Fire at 31st Dwa
-[X] 31st Elv Art: Fire at 31st Dwa
-[X] 45th Elv: Move NW
-[X] 42nd Elv: Move NW
-[X] 5th Horse Hob Artillery: Set up
-[X] 28th Half Pfd: Move NW,NW,W
-[X] 13th Hob Lanc: Move 3*W, NW
-[X] 108th Elv Hsr: Search
-[X] 55th Elv Hsr: Move NW, 2*NE,NW
-[X] Guillory Hussars: Search
-[X] 251st Hobs: Search
-[X] 200th Hobs: Ready Fire [500m, N]
-[X] 72nd Hum: Hide
-[X] 148th Hum: Hide
-[X] 16th Half Pfd: Hide
-[X] 19th Half Pfd: Rapid Move NW, Hide
-[X] HQ: resupply 10th Hum Art

Visualization:

View: https://imgur.com/a/3PteCO1

This plan is otherwise similar to @Red Rationalist's, except for setting up the horse artillery to fire on the right flank and doing Search actions with the 108th and Guillory's hussars. The justification for the horse artillery is that I expect the enemy to, at least in part, push through Rotholz forest. Our center is already covered by enough artillery for now. The additional Search actions are intended to find hidden enemies on both flanks. Guillory's hussars have already been spotted, so hiding with them is not important anymore.
  • What if the enemy does not attack through Rotholz? Is the horse artillery not badly positioned?
    • I consider a Rotholz attack something we should prepare for, since the natural barrier created by the hills allow him to approach from there without taking fire from our Field Artillery. This means he can take his time, slowly bringing up his cannons to Rotholz without his screening units being slowly destroyed by our artillery in the process. For any kind of assault on our position, him having artillery at Rotholz is beneficial. Below is an illustration:

      View: https://imgur.com/a/8Vi5wsb
      I also would support moving the horse artillery later if it looks like he commits to a central push. But it is too early to tell.
  • Why Search with the 108th, instead of moving forward to scout?
    • In our position, we chose to let the enemy come to us. I thus do not really see a reason to push our cavalry forward, at least unless it looks like he is being passive and yielding ground. By Searching, we should be able to spot any units moving on the Eastern flank, giving us a better picture next turn.
  • Why not hide with Guillory's cavalry?
    • They were already spotted this turn, so the enemy knows they are there. Thus Searching is preferred.
 
Just click on the first vote in the tally for each plan, that brings you to the plan post.
 
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