- Location
- In the air vent
Zion's race, enough know of them to setup an early warning if more are heading our way if they can detect when members die to see what killed them.
Ancient Legos [Worm/Stargate]
- Thread starter TCGM
- Start date
- Sci-Fi Crossover Superhero
- Location
- Here and There and Back When
TCGM
(Unverified God/Space Snek)
- Location
- Avalon
Ah. Yeah, Alteran subspace sensors should see them coming like road flares.
Thanks! Welcome to my little corner of insanity.
Fixed, thanks for the heads up.
jojotastic777
I Am
- Location
- Somewhere Between
\o/ New chapter!
So... Weldon and Lisa already know each other? Huh. That's... unexpected. I'm interested to see where this goes.
So... Weldon and Lisa already know each other? Huh. That's... unexpected. I'm interested to see where this goes.
- Location
- Nowhere
Fixed that for you and great chapter btw. Now all we need is the our glorious queen of Escalation with QA and the power of [HALPING], to make this into a circus of epic proportions with you as a ringleader.
Edit: Words.
- Location
- Not where I want to be
Coming up with classifications based on the wet navy is an interesting exercise but ultimately futile. The classes are a weird mix of politics and arbitrary decisions; sometimes the differences of ships of the same class are larger than the differences between some classes. Ultimately (space)ships wouldn't be designed to fit categories, but they'd be fit into arbitrary categories after design for ease of communication, probably based on political consideration more than anything else.
Take destroyers; they were introduced to fight torpedo boats before they could launch their weapons against battleships and later on turned into the anti-submarine platform of choice. Todays destroyers are about the same size as cruisers, and the only real difference is their purpose in the fleet.
As for Battlecruisers; they were essentially battleships with much more expensive engines. And Dreadnaught was/is a term for a specific kind of battleship.
How would a space navy be organized? Is there even a reason to field ships of more than one type?
In space there are no submarine equivalents, so there's no need for a dedicated platform to fight them.
If space fighters are a threat to capital ships, if their weapons are really powerful enough to threaten them, there's no purpose in constructing anything but light carriers and point defense ships; else there's no purpose to build anything but general purpose cruisers.
With the speed of hyperdrives, there isn't really a need for commerce protection or any other type of light ship.
If there's a massive threat of missiles, dedicated point defense ships mixed into a squadron might make sense, but otherwise a single ship type probably is the better choice.
We remember battleships today, but for all the attention paid to them, they've proven remarkably non-entities on the results of naval warfare. Unless you can build a ship that is essentially invulnerable to cruiser weaponry and yet fast enough to be useful and cheap enough to not cripple the rest of the navy, yet too expensive to become the default ship of the navy, there might be a place for battleships, assuming the enemy can't create cruisers with sufficiently heavy weapons to still blow them up, and yet are cheap enough to be produced in far larger numbers.
So yeah, with the tech at hand, there's probably just one modern ship class. That it's called a battlecruiser is a purely political decision, probably based around the fact that it's larger than its predecessor and little else.
If you want more than one kind of ship, you need to come up with a very good purpose for the ship and good reasons forwhy the default ship can't fulfill that purpose well enough. There are just too many advantages in training and logistics to having a single ship design, that you need really good reasons to get another ship type.
- Location
- East of Sun, West of Moon
Very good point about classes being a largely political construct imposed on warships, as well as the logistical advantages of a single-design navy.
However, it's worth remembering that battleships were supplanted by carriers because of the carrier's ability to attack from beyond a battleship's reach, and deliver even bigger and more accurate salvoes in the form of heavy bombs.
In space, small craft are not categorically faster than large craft, since people pose a bigger limit on acceleration than the non-existant drag. Missiles have no easily available cover to hide their approach, and it's basically impossible to achieve stealth against the background of deep space. This means that point defences will have plenty of time to intercept, and the high velocities involved means that "grapeshot" would murder incoming projectiles.
Add in the ridiculously effective Battletech ablative armor, and warships - whether true-and-pure Warships, or combat-dedicated "dropships" - will slaughter small craft by the score with their direct energy weapons.
And in a paradigm where size matters, ships naturally develop into multiple strata - first-rate, second-rate, third-rate, etc - as the great powers struggle to balance the need for super-ships to fly the flag and guard key worlds, against the need for large enough numbers to not only guard their holdings but patrol their space.
However, it's worth remembering that battleships were supplanted by carriers because of the carrier's ability to attack from beyond a battleship's reach, and deliver even bigger and more accurate salvoes in the form of heavy bombs.
In space, small craft are not categorically faster than large craft, since people pose a bigger limit on acceleration than the non-existant drag. Missiles have no easily available cover to hide their approach, and it's basically impossible to achieve stealth against the background of deep space. This means that point defences will have plenty of time to intercept, and the high velocities involved means that "grapeshot" would murder incoming projectiles.
Add in the ridiculously effective Battletech ablative armor, and warships - whether true-and-pure Warships, or combat-dedicated "dropships" - will slaughter small craft by the score with their direct energy weapons.
And in a paradigm where size matters, ships naturally develop into multiple strata - first-rate, second-rate, third-rate, etc - as the great powers struggle to balance the need for super-ships to fly the flag and guard key worlds, against the need for large enough numbers to not only guard their holdings but patrol their space.
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- Location
- Neptune
No. Battleships were supplanted because firepower surpassed armour. Ships could not be adequately armoured against firepower carried on much smaller vessels and vehicles. You no longer needed battleship-scale guns to shoot down battleships.
In space larger craft generally means higher endurance, longer missions. And if you DON'T ass-pull some ridiculous special super-armour to justify them being "better" than smaller craft they STILL have a purpose.
- Location
- Not where I want to be
Actually that's not quite the point. It's more the understanding that just being able to fight is almost worthless. It's not about being able to fight one another, it's about achieving the mission objectives. Commerce raiding versus commerce protection was the key aspect of the Cold War, and battleships had no place there. If on the other hand say naval invasions were a critical aspect, battleships would have stayed around a lot longer, since it's only relatively recently that carriers could operate at night or during bad weather. And enemy ships getting into the landing fleet or a supply convey unloading onto a beach during night would be an utter disaster.
Actually it all comes down to in fiction technology. How effective is inertia dampening for vessels of different sizes? It's easy to say that small vessels like fighters have ten times the acceleration. And if cloaking devices exist, missiles could be hidden well enough. Or they could have energy shields powerful enough that fast firing fast tracking weapons that'd be ideal for point defense are useless, and with good enough ECM missiles will get through. With the right technological justifications, everything can make sense.
Not necessarily. It depends a lot on technology, how stable it is, and politics. So technically anything is possible, but certain limits exist. But in the context of this story, super ships make no sense. The Alterans were unchallenged and had ships that could get anywhere in the galaxy in minutes. Do you need anything but a limited number of the best possible ships in those conditions?
Even when challenged, would developing a cheaper ship type to produce in larger numbers been cost effective for them? For a quasi immortal race, expendable ships would be strange.
Of course when you go to other universes and remove the incredible strategic speed, things change. Even introducing massive fortifications to crack might change it - then again the Alterans might be exclusively using maximum (useful)size ships; as in any larger and sub-light engine performance drops massively or something of that nature.
Firepower played a role, mostly in how effective subs were getting in killing ships, but the more important part was the Cold War challenges were all about lines of communication and keeping them open/cutting them. There was literally nothing for battleships to shoot at.
Space battleships could be justified, as I said, if shields or armor thickness could be piled on high enough to make cruiser weaponry meaningless. With armor that's unlikely to be possible, since mission killing a ship doesn't even require penetrating the armor, but with shields? Shields operate pretty much at the author's discretion.
But large does not necessarily mean high endurance or longer missions. For one fleet tenders/civilian transport ships can bring along supplies, rendering individual ship size meaningless. For another, given a certain tech level, like in this story, energy becomes the only resource you need to carry along; with potentia batteries decades of supplies at max consumption would take up less space than a crew cabin. Of course speeds are so high that supplies carried along become nearly meaningless; home base is literally never more than a few minutes away.
For different tech bases that changes, or course, but there are also counter examples. Take Star Trek; the main limitation to ship size in universe is the Warp Drive. The larger the ship, the more complicated the warp field gets; energy consumption explodes while speeds drop. The long range vessels of the Federation are fairly small sized vessels like the Intrepid; perhaps an eighth of the volume of an older Galaxy class vessel, they combine high speed with endurance that at least matches the Galaxy class.
Then of course there's the question of what kind of mission you'd send a navy vessel that it needs extra supplies. Even six month missions put an extreme stress on families. If you try for longer missions, there'll be a huge drop in the quality and quantity of volunteers. Yes, blue navy ships tend to be bigger than brown navy ships, but you don't see any navy mix blue and brown navy ships; they are either one or the other.
The last two points are important to always keep in mind; what kind of missions do you need ships for and what kind of deployment schedule is the crew willing to tolerate. An emergency mission that needs more endurance can always take a transport ship along to extend their range without requiring a dedicated new ship class for rare and unusual missions. And if long missions are very common? It makes more sense to have all ships capable of performing them, so that you can rotate ships and crews and don't have one sub-section of the sailors under far more stress than the rest; and it's far more flexible when ships get damaged and things need to be shifted around on the fly.
- Location
- East of Sun, West of Moon
Sorry, @PossiblyEnos , @Lord of Dragons , my bad; confused this for a certain BT thread ([... You Get The Horns], over on SB) which I had been browsing, hence my comment about Battletech ablative armor.
Needless to say, Alteran tech is a whole other ballgame, though the two of you have good points about combat paradigms all the same.
Needless to say, Alteran tech is a whole other ballgame, though the two of you have good points about combat paradigms all the same.
TCGM
(Unverified God/Space Snek)
- Location
- Avalon
TCGM sat at his desk and decided to check in on his Legos SV thread. Upon catching up with the latest posts... he gulped. "Oh gods what have I started."
Yay!
Yes, they do. Weldon even dropped a couple of hints as to how. And while it is unexpected, it stands to reason they could conceivably meet each other by random chance. They do both live in BB, after all. I put it in because it adds a little bit of realism to the story. Something a lot of other stories seem to do, I've found, is avoid having any main characters have any relationship with the OC/SI/whatever until they meet in story, even if the OC/SI/W/E has lived in BB for a while. It bugs me. So, I fixed it.
Accurate xD Nothing quite like titanic, star-system-spanning eldritch-gimping monstrosities to make a blip on sensor screens.
Taylor's entrance will be along soon enough. Not sure she could make things more of a circus than they already are, but her tendency for Escalation will certainly try.
And she's not an AltPower Taylor, funnily enough.
OH GODS WHAT HAVE I STARTED
Okay, okay, let's see. Yes, there are a lot of classifications that were decided upon in wet navies due to the political equivalent of "becuz lulz", and yes, comparing wet navies to space navies is an exercise in frustration at the best of times. But that's what makes it fun!
I am observing this debate with high interest. Please, continue! I'll throw my hat in the ring and bring up the idea that the Alterans had at least four ship classes (shuttle, cruiser/destroyer, battlecruiser/battleship, dreadnought/cityship) and they were part of a space navy. Perhaps there's something inherent in Human-and-Alteran kind that requires categorizing things regardless of the futility of it?
Yay!
Yes, they do. Weldon even dropped a couple of hints as to how. And while it is unexpected, it stands to reason they could conceivably meet each other by random chance. They do both live in BB, after all. I put it in because it adds a little bit of realism to the story. Something a lot of other stories seem to do, I've found, is avoid having any main characters have any relationship with the OC/SI/whatever until they meet in story, even if the OC/SI/W/E has lived in BB for a while. It bugs me. So, I fixed it.
Accurate xD Nothing quite like titanic, star-system-spanning eldritch-gimping monstrosities to make a blip on sensor screens.
Taylor's entrance will be along soon enough. Not sure she could make things more of a circus than they already are, but her tendency for Escalation will certainly try.
And she's not an AltPower Taylor, funnily enough.
OH GODS WHAT HAVE I STARTED
Okay, okay, let's see. Yes, there are a lot of classifications that were decided upon in wet navies due to the political equivalent of "becuz lulz", and yes, comparing wet navies to space navies is an exercise in frustration at the best of times. But that's what makes it fun!
I am observing this debate with high interest. Please, continue! I'll throw my hat in the ring and bring up the idea that the Alterans had at least four ship classes (shuttle, cruiser/destroyer, battlecruiser/battleship, dreadnought/cityship) and they were part of a space navy. Perhaps there's something inherent in Human-and-Alteran kind that requires categorizing things regardless of the futility of it?
TimeDiver
Herald of Dis Lev
- Location
- In-between the parallel worlds...
...actually, I have to dispute this. Knowing Lisa in advance only makes your SI look like even more of a Gary Stu*.
Far too contrived. If they'd only met once or twice, it'd be straining SoD, but still plausible. As it is? Not a good sign.
* - As in, the events / people of your story seemingly revolve around you, and not as aspects / characters of their own.
As an in-story setting breaker? Fair enough, that's the premise after all. But Gary Stu-ism is still inherently undesirable.
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TCGM
(Unverified God/Space Snek)
- Location
- Avalon
If realism is all that's required to make a character Stu-ish, there is something wrong with the definition of Stu.
If there were more characters who knew him right off the bat, I might agree. As it is, it happens to be one. One character who is known to hang out at coffee and tea shops.
That said; If you're reading this story and expecting a lack of themes and events that veer into Gary Stu, may I remind you his power is throwing Lego models over his shoulder and summoning ENTIRE STARSHIPS.
SpatialGaming
Scifi Tech and Magic Theorist
- Location
- United States of America
I love this story so much. It is crazy enough to be fun, and serious enough to seriously enjoy.
TimeDiver
Herald of Dis Lev
- Location
- In-between the parallel worlds...
The definition of Gary Stu is NOT "stupidly overpowered and/or story breaking". That is merely a side effect; and as above, since it is the story's stated premise, fair enough.
The definition is as stated above: making all events/people 'orbit' around a designated character (your SI in this case), to the detriment of their own potential development.
It is one thing for notable authority figures (civilian, military, Alexandria/Cauldron) to take notice, but for even low-key villains to have already met Shipyard's civilian ID?
While I'm still enjoying the crack!fic, I'm getting a tad peeved over the minor details that keep it from being mid-to-high quality crack!fic.
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TCGM
(Unverified God/Space Snek)
- Location
- Avalon
Thanks, Spatial. Feedback is my fuel for writing more.
One. One of canon's primary characters happens to know him already. From a perfectly viable chance meeting at a coffee shop. This isn't contrived world/event manipulation to make that occur, it's a logical consequence from Lisa and Weldon frequenting Boardwalk coffee shops. And Lisa's own character trait of latching on to meek impressionable youngsters in order to corrupt them.
And, if orbiting the MC turns you off, please take another look at what Weldon did. He 'killed' an Endbringer. Logical consequences of this are event/people orbiting. That's realistic. I argue that doing anything but that is in fact unrealistic. Events and people orbit POTUS, and via his actions Weldon has become almost as important. Honestly the fact that more things aren't happening around and to Weldon at the moment is due to the last few chapter's relatively slow temporal pacing.
Not really. Its been established that both frequent coffeeshops, so its entirely possible that they have run into each other in the past. If their schedules have any overlap in them, then it is entirely possible that they might remember each other if they find out something that involves the other one.
If he knew lisa beyond that-girl-I-sometimes-see-when-I-get-my-drink I would agree with you, but he doesnt so it is believable.
It would be equally believable if shipyard were to have a dog and sometimes run into bitch while on a walk at some point in his life.
What would be unbelievable would be if shipyard knew taylor, aisha, grue, regent, vista or shadow stalker, as he has no reason to ever cross paths with them as taylor aisha and ss all go to a different school, regent never leaves the lair, vista is too young to be in highschool, and grue is never around arcadia. Similarly, I would find it unbelievable for shipyard had no prior contact with the rest of the wards or new wave as civies due to going to the same school as them, as well as some of them being a bit notorious within that school. Particularly GG, Gallant, and Clock due to constantly fighting amd beimg a prankster respectively.
TimeDiver
Herald of Dis Lev
- Location
- In-between the parallel worlds...
Fair enough, it's been one of those days for me. Flew off the handle when I shouldn't have. Consider my objections withdrawn.
SpatialGaming
Scifi Tech and Magic Theorist
- Location
- United States of America
I would not have been really surprised if Weldon had at least met Taylor in the past. People orbiting Shipyard is no surprise at all, some will want to be close to a powerful person for protection, some for other reasons, fans are both the highlight and the bane of the rich and famous after all.
The only time that taylor could run into weldon is if weldon went to tea shops or if he frequented the public library while taylor was doing cape research.
It's more that it's Lisa it's happening with. She's been used and abused so much across fanfiction that whenever we see her get special treatment, no matter how minor, we're going to bitch about it. It's not specific to this story or your writing.
- Location
- Not where I want to be
There's a difference between naval ship classes and ship classes. I do expect the Alteran to have many more ship classes; recreational ships, mining ships, transports, gate seeding ships, terraforming ships, and so on. However even if used by the navy, they wouldn't count as combat ships.
Shuttles almost certainly do not have a place in military engagements. Why are they armed with nuclear level weaponry? Because the Alterans are essentially immortal and would seemingly abhor being caught anywhere defenseless. Even military ships might carry shuttles, but their use would be for logistics outside of combat and a lifeboats during combat. But deliberately sending them into combat? That seems too close to suicide missions.
City ships would be somewhere similar; armed as last ditch defense, but nobody remotely sensible would try and get them into battle. Wet navy equivalent would probably be coastal artillery. Some last ditch defense to keep the enemy from killing civilians and destroying the city infrastructure, but something you really don't want in battle at all.
The cruiser we don't get any canon information on, except that it was used against the Asurans. As such we don't know if it's actually a contemporary of the Aurora class, or as I would posit, its predecessor.
Of course we can't dismiss that the authors never considered what a proper navy should look like and simply copied things without consideration of whether it fits their tech or not. The show is riddled with issues that don't make sense once you take a step back and really look at it.
I would like to add to the ship discusion that in stargate, bigger ship = better shields and higher energy main weapons. Even a lantien ship without shields is savaged by the first salvo of weaponfire aimed in it's direction.
So there is a bigger stick battle going on and the biggest ship wins. You must have X power to overcome the shields of the big ship and if your combined fleet can't overcome that limit, it flys away untouched.
A single big ship can kill smaller ships faster than they can overcome it's shields because they need to overcome ALL of it's shields to slow it down and it just needs to kill enough smaller ships to get an advantage.
So it makes sense that you build the single biggest ship you can field in as many locations as you can field it.
And for a project as important and as longterm of an investment as a spaceship, standardisation is less than perfect. Each ship is always going to be updated and each generation slightly different than the last. Again, always chasing the shield/weapon advantage.
So there is a bigger stick battle going on and the biggest ship wins. You must have X power to overcome the shields of the big ship and if your combined fleet can't overcome that limit, it flys away untouched.
A single big ship can kill smaller ships faster than they can overcome it's shields because they need to overcome ALL of it's shields to slow it down and it just needs to kill enough smaller ships to get an advantage.
So it makes sense that you build the single biggest ship you can field in as many locations as you can field it.
And for a project as important and as longterm of an investment as a spaceship, standardisation is less than perfect. Each ship is always going to be updated and each generation slightly different than the last. Again, always chasing the shield/weapon advantage.
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