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An Exploration of the Mortal Realms: An Age of Sigmar Thread

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We have some faction information on the Tomb Kings. Not too much, mostly just seems to be splitting the difference between editions and trying to thread a line of keeping Warhammer fans happy while also not causing any hiccups with Age of Sigmar fans.

GW has to walk a fine line as "Undead but intelligent and sane" is basically an entire faction's thing in Age of Sigmar and as a relatively recent creation / discovery at that. While there'd be something fitting about Liche Priests managing it with their Skeletons millennia before Nagash by quite literally asking and spiritual rites, it'd be a big thumb at AoS lore. So "Royalty was an accident of chance, Liche Priests used Necromancy to raise the legions of undead we know and love independently of that" is the result.

Personally not the biggest fan, but again I see GW's hands being sort-of tied as either they piss on an AoS faction or they retcon some lore most people aren't even aware of.
 
Drachyench said:
We have some faction information on the Tomb Kings. Not too much, mostly just seems to be splitting the difference between editions and trying to thread a line of keeping Warhammer fans happy while also not causing any hiccups with Age of Sigmar fans.

GW has to walk a fine line as "Undead but intelligent and sane" is basically an entire faction's thing in Age of Sigmar and as a relatively recent creation / discovery at that. While there'd be something fitting about Liche Priests managing it with their Skeletons millennia before Nagash by quite literally asking and spiritual rites, it'd be a big thumb at AoS lore. So "Royalty was an accident of chance, Liche Priests used Necromancy to raise the legions of undead we know and love independently of that" is the result.

Personally not the biggest fan, but again I see GW's hands being sort-of tied as either they piss on an AoS faction or they retcon some lore most people aren't even aware of.
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I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here. What was the retcon or change?
 
Alex said:
I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say here. What was the retcon or change?
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The standard Skeleton for Tomb Kings as of Liber Necris, 6E, and Warhammer Fantasy 2E RPG was intelligent. Not, like, full person [though Tomb Guard, the bulk of Mummies, and a chunk of non-royalty who had undergone at least partial mummification were, as per Josh Reynolds' Serpent Queen and again WHFRPG 2E], but they had some level of autonomy and individual intelligence. Goblins who, for one reason or another, were put under those same rites and rituals [Dust Goblins] were similarly independent to such a degree that many of them just... buggered off and rejoined Orc & Goblin tribes the moment a Liche Priest's attention turned away from them and they had a chance to escape.

Needless to say, one of the big things for one of the current Age of Sigmar undead factions is that Nagash was able to make intelligent and self-reliable Skellington montrosities by jamming a ton of souls into a singular frame and creating a sort of gestalt. It's described as a pinnacle of Nagash's work and creativity.

... But again, if this bit of lore was kept, Liche Priests could achieve something akin without having to pour a bunch of souls and bodies into a blender. So GW seems to be splitting the difference by allowing the Kings, Princes, et al to have -thanks to their complete mummification - retained their full autonomy due to a sort of fluke of factors and whatever the fuck it was that happened with the Fellblade + Council of Thirteen interrupting his Great Ritual. But the generic Skeleton is, well, a generic skeleton using bog standard Necromancy and the key differentiation between them and other Undead is the nature of the royalty + Liche Priests.

It's not especially different to much pre-6E Tomb Kings lore [insofar as they had lore before their christening as a proper faction], and by 8E a lot of this kind of stuff had been quietly dropped as well [with some of its last nods in the Land of the Dead Warhammer Online expansion]. Just another area where fans of a window at GW's peak might be disappointed.
 
Drachyench said:
The standard Skeleton for Tomb Kings as of Liber Necris, 6E, and Warhammer Fantasy 2E RPG was intelligent. Not, like, full person [though Tomb Guard, the bulk of Mummies, and a chunk of non-royalty who had undergone at least partial mummification were, as per Josh Reynolds' Serpent Queen and again WHFRPG 2E], but they had some level of autonomy and individual intelligence. Goblins who, for one reason or another, were put under those same rites and rituals [Dust Goblins] were similarly independent to such a degree that many of them just... buggered off and rejoined Orc & Goblin tribes the moment a Liche Priest's attention turned away from them and they had a chance to escape.

Needless to say, one of the big things for one of the current Age of Sigmar undead factions is that Nagash was able to make intelligent and self-reliable Skellington montrosities by jamming a ton of souls into a singular frame and creating a sort of gestalt. It's described as a pinnacle of Nagash's work and creativity.

... But again, if this bit of lore was kept, Liche Priests could achieve something akin without having to pour a bunch of souls and bodies into a blender. So GW seems to be splitting the difference by allowing the Kings, Princes, et al to have -thanks to their complete mummification - retained their full autonomy due to a sort of fluke of factors and whatever the fuck it was that happened with the Fellblade + Council of Thirteen interrupting his Great Ritual. But the generic Skeleton is, well, a generic skeleton using bog standard Necromancy and the key differentiation between them and other Undead is the nature of the royalty + Liche Priests.

It's not especially different to much pre-6E Tomb Kings lore [insofar as they had lore before their christening as a proper faction], and by 8E a lot of this kind of stuff had been quietly dropped as well [with some of its last nods in the Land of the Dead Warhammer Online expansion]. Just another area where fans of a window at GW's peak might be disappointed.
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I think you might be reading too much into a single sentence in that blog post.

I think it remains to be seen if the lower-class skeletons will retain their rough autonomy.
 
Drachyench said:
Needless to say, one of the big things for one of the current Age of Sigmar undead factions is that Nagash was able to make intelligent and self-reliable Skellington montrosities by jamming a ton of souls into a singular frame and creating a sort of gestalt. It's described as a pinnacle of Nagash's work and creativity.
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I think you misunderstand why the Osiarch bonereapers are impressive. The big thing with them is that they are supposed to be the best of both worlds, each one being a gestalt consciousness made with the souls of experienced warriors and the unbreakable will of a typical undead horde. They are essentially Nagash making his own stormcast since he continues to be pissy with Sigmar.

Lots of undead in Sigmar have personalities, the nighthaunt are classic ghosts tormented by their sins in life and a desire to take it out on the living.
 
Good new year and good news! Warhammer the Old World is launching, On shelves 20th January, though some may call it a bit of a soft launch perhaps. Given that the game will start to really ramp up and build its own community when it has released though, it's my suggestion that there should perhaps be made a dedicated thread for all things Old World related. I'm much in favour of good relations and community overlap between the different GW lines, we are all friends in hobby here, but to me it seems that each is best served by having their own dedicated space
 
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Soulboundplayer said:
Good new year and good news! Warhammer the Old World is launching, On shelves 20th January, though some may call it a bit of a soft launch perhaps. Given that the game will start to really ramp up and build its own community when it has released though, it's my suggestion that there should perhaps be made a dedicated thread for all things Old World related. I'm much in favour of good relations and community overlap between the different GW lines, we are all friends in hobby here, but to me it seems that each is best served by having their own dedicated space
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I'm all for that. I don't mind some Old World discussion, but now that it's launching I think a more solid place to discuss it would be beneficial.

As a point of clarification, I'm not gonna do it. I actually have no real interest in Old World personally, I'm just happy for the ones who are getting some degree of WHF back. I wish anyone who gets into it the best of luck.
 
Yeah now that Old World is nearing the finish line a new thread is probably for the best unless something overlaps between the two systems.
 
I reckon by having brought it up I could be the one to make the thread. However similarly to Codex I'm glad that The Old World exists, but I hadn't really planned on getting into it all that much as my limited hobby time is already pretty taken with AoS. So if there's anyone around who's really passionate about it or knows they're gonna engage a lot with it, absolutely feel free to set up a thread and tell us folks here! If not, I'll start a thread on friday so it's up and running in good time for the preorders that start this weekend
 
I for one am wary of a new general thread, all attempts to make Warhammer Fantasy General threads have failed in the past so I fear for the fate of the thread based on the Horus Heresy but planetbound in the middle ages edition. Yes I know that's pesemissm, but I'd rather broader threads than a possibility of no discussion.
 
I think a TOW thread would do better than previous WHF threads. Mainly because there's actually a living game to talk about. Amd have updates posted about.

Do you think it should go in fiction discussion or tabletop gaming?
 
16 characters said:
I for one am wary of a new general thread, all attempts to make Warhammer Fantasy General threads have failed in the past so I fear for the fate of the thread based on the Horus Heresy but planetbound in the middle ages edition. Yes I know that's pesemissm, but I'd rather broader threads than a possibility of no discussion.
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As much as I'm happy to host discussion in elements that can involve AoS, unfortunately I have to draw a line so the discussion doesn't get too muddled. There's plenty of people who have intense feelings on AoS that stops them from even checking this thread, so I think you'd be a bit surprised at how many people would rather go to a TOW thread than an AoS one. I can't exactly prove this of course, because it involves people who wouldn't be reading my posts anyways.

I think TOW has a greater chance of surviving discussion because it's being actively supported, and unlike Horus Heresy, there is no alternative for Old World that still exists the way Horus Heresy has 40K. It's either Old World or decade old content.
Mopman43 said:
I think a TOW thread would do better than previous WHF threads. Mainly because there's actually a living game to talk about. Amd have updates posted about.

Do you think it should go in fiction discussion or tabletop gaming?
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This thread is in fiction discussion, but that's because I wanted to start this one as an analysis of the AoS setting. Of course, it has since effectively shifted into a mostly general discussion thread for AoS, but that's probably because I don't think there are any other active AoS threads on the site.

I'd say it could go either way. I think Fiction Discussion might garner a larger audience, but tabletop gaming would technically be more accurate.
 
I'd like a TOW thread personally just so that the AOS thread doesn't get filled up with some other game I don't really care about
 
New Lore article from GW on the old world setting just dropped. Putting the crusading Bretionians firmly in the good camp and the Tomb Kings firmly in the evil camp alongside the "ravenening hordes" of Chaos, orcs and beastmen is certainly a choice.
 
Alex said:
New Lore article from GW on the old world setting just dropped. Putting the crusading Bretionians firmly in the good camp and the Tomb Kings firmly in the evil camp alongside the "ravenening hordes" of Chaos, orcs and beastmen is certainly a choice.
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They aren't wrong that Settra is literally an undead tyrant bent on global conquest.

Yeah, he opposed Chaos, but like, so did Nagash. And Grimgor. Didn't suddenly make them part of the 'good guys'.
 
LilyWitch said:
as opposed to the living tyrants bent of world conquest which are the crusading bretonnians?
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I really need you to point me towards when the Bretonnians tried for global conquest.

They killed enough Orcs near the Badlands that a bunch of Old Worlders could go independent in the Border Princes, and they might have founded a city on the coast of Araby and a couple of failed colonies in Lustria that never got farther than a shanty-town on the coast.

In contrast, 'I want to conquer the entire world and turn everyone living in it into either my subjects or my slaves' is and has been Settra's ambition for as long as he's existed as a character.

The writers aren't even slightly wrong that it was his obsession with eternal life and founding of the Mortuary Cult that eventually gave rise to Nagash.

There really isn't that much daylight between Nagash and Settra, beyond the fact that Settra was fine only enslaving people's bodies and souls rather than that and their minds.
 
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Mopman43 said:
They aren't wrong that Settra is literally an undead tyrant bent on global conquest.

Yeah, he opposed Chaos, but like, so did Nagash. And Grimgor. Didn't suddenly make them part of the 'good guys'.
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Please don't be deliberately obtuse, you know what we are talking about. Warhammer fantasy and the old world is very much like the Snyder Cut of Justice league, neither is bad in and of itself and both have surrounding circumstance of corporate fuckery (Joss Whedons JL and the end times) that you can be legitimately mad about but both have definitely been taken up by angry internet reactionaries to use as a battle ground for their culture war issues against diversity and wokeness and blah blah blah. Obviously that doesn't include everyone or even most people excited for the old world but it is a large enough group to be notable and I think its worth talking about if it feels like GW is trying to lean into those people. And it does kinda feel like they are doing that when they represent the factions as good or evil and represent the good with 5 angry white men (Empire, Bretonia, Dwarfs, wood elves and High elves) versus the evil ravening hordes of chaos warriors beast men, orcs and totally not Egyptians.
 
To sound like a broken record: While I'm not surprised by Tomb Kings returning to their pre-6E roots, it absolutely has precedent ["How dare a company cashing in on nostalgia for a defunct system... cash in on the wrong nostalgia!"], and simplifies things immensely...

I am disappointed. Not necessarily with Settra specifically. I'm a tad disappointed the reason they went with him opposing Nagash and Chaos is "He's too insane, even in undeath", but Settra was objectively a textbook case of a 'benevolent dictator' for whom those who survived under him prospered.... those who survived under him. What I'm more disappointed in is the "Actually nah the only reason people ever thought the Tomb Kings were ever good is because of Settra in End Times".

Thankfully, this means absolutely nothing changes for me as I'm an old man who shouts at clouds and I can just keep on picking and choosing my lore as is proud tradition for tabletop wargamers, PnPers, and so-on everywhere. Dragonborn have tails, T'au aren't just Communist IoM, Viciona and Sarevok found peace after the Bhaalspawn Saga, and the Tomb Kings are no more Good or Evil than organized religion and royalty have ever been.

E: I'll note that even "Benevolent dictator" is likely too far. Tyrannical is technically accurate, but it tends to make you think people who fucked off in excess while everyone outside their immediate circle wallowed in shit. Dude killed tens of thousands directly or indirectly but we call those "Presidents" or "Prime Minister" these days. Which, again, I'm not especially disappointed in him being called a dictator or a mass murder or any of that because it's all objectively true.
 
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Alex said:
Please don't be deliberately obtuse, you know what we are talking about. Warhammer fantasy and the old world is very much like the Snyder Cut of Justice league, neither is bad in and of itself and both have surrounding circumstance of corporate fuckery (Joss Whedons JL and the end times) that you can be legitimately mad about but both have definitely been taken up by angry internet reactionaries to use as a battle ground for their culture war issues against diversity and wokeness and blah blah blah. Obviously that doesn't include everyone or even most people excited for the old world but it is a large enough group to be notable and I think its worth talking about if it feels like GW is trying to lean into those people. And it does kinda feel like they are doing that when they represent the factions as good or evil and represent the good with 5 angry white men (Empire, Bretonia, Dwarfs, wood elves and High elves) versus the evil ravening hordes of chaos warriors beast men, orcs and totally not Egyptians.
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I'm going to be real with you, I don't think the problem here is that they deliberately set up the whole thing to be "white vs non-white". Lizardmen are technically good guys and they're some weird mesoamerican mashup, Cathay is being developed and they're chinese, and Chaos Warriors, Beastmen and Orcs aren't non-white as far as we're aware.

The problem is that they very roots of this setting have always been extremely centered on what a bunch of white british nerds in the 80s thought were cool, and that was almost always eurocentric concepts and ideals. I don't think most of them started with any malicious ideals, but one major reason I fell out of Warhammer Fantasy is that I found that the very conception of the setting, the bones in which it were built in, is just not for me. I don't think the Old World will change that, and I think if it did it would create an immense amount of controversy that I don't even want to deal with. I've long since accepted the setting isn't for me and any band-aids they apply to the setting to appease a wider audience isn't going to interest me, and I don't think Settra being evil is going to change my mind on any of it.

I do think the concept of "Good" and "Evil" is extremely stupid to try to define in WHF outside of Chaos. The point is that everyone's bad to some degree. The concept of "Order", "Chaos" and "Destruction" works far better here, and it's what I like about AoS. It's not about who's good or bad, it's about who wants to make civilisation and who wants to destroy it. Yes it means that Dark Elves are "Order", but I don't think that's inherently bad.
 
"Good" and "evil" are really just ways to divide the rulebooks, ala Heresy.

Also, I have a finger on the pulse of crazy, and right-wing youtube isn't really talking about this.
 
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