Remove ads

Alt History ideas, rec and general discussion thread

Sandy River DL said:
And thus, WW2 between the US-Japan-Netherlands on one side and Britain-France-Germany on the other. No idea what the Eastern European powers would do in this scenario, but I don't see Hitler's Germany not trying to push east when they have Britain and France having promised to back them up.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The Uk and France probably have the means to communicate to Poland that it should seek terms, something to the tune of losing Danzig and being a German puppet.

USSR-US rapprochment in reaction maybe?

It'd be interesting if fascism gets absorbed into the same narrative as the European empires and the US propagandize itself as the champion of anti imperialism alongside with Japan's hypocritical rhetoric on the topic and Stalin's own deal.
 
I'd imagine there would be a lot of flare up of the old American hostility towards Britain in this scenario that had been dealt with by the great reproachment.

I'd also imagine the US military would be preparing for war in sooner than they had prepared war historically with likely War Plan Red and whatever war plan they had for dealing with France and its French colonial holdings in the Americas being prepared and revised.

I am also reminded that the 1930s and 1940s under the FDR administration were high-water marks for US and Latin American relations and I believe there were a number of British and French colonial holdings that were claimed by various south and central American states as rightfully belonging to them.
 
Dunno if this is the right thread, but what if the after Fall of the Western Roman Empire during Odoacer or the Gothic rulers one of them tried to declare themselves Emperor of the Romans and tried to conquer or assimilate the former western roman territories?
 
I mean you probably could have had that with just a few contingent changes- when Theodoric invaded Italy as the new proxy of Emperor Zeno to overthrow him Odoacer had the Senate in Rome declare his son Thela Caesar. If Odoacer had won and defeated Theodoric then you would have had a new emperor in Italy.
 
The Senate in Rome kept on trucking off and on throughout the early medieval era, as just the social club to get drunk in as the kings and emperors get crowned if nothing else, until it just gradually stopped being the Senate and was just the College of Cardinals and the magistracy of Rome the city and etc...

As for Patrician Flavius Odoacer, on paper viceroy in Italy for Emperor Julius Nepos and then Emperor Zeno in Constantinople, it's actually kinda hard to confirm any real completely non-Roman identity, with his alleged barbarian kingdom being mostly just the garrisons of Italy and the centuries of ethnic intermingling bent around the gravitational force of an imperial metropole and the conception of Rome standing atop countless sub-Roman cultures and nationalities.
 
Last edited:
It was Justinian who stripped the Roman senate of power after the conquest of Italy by dissolving virtually all senatorial offices in Italy, not that there was much of the senatorial order left in italy after the Gothic wars ended up killing many of them while others fled to the east.

The authority and power of the Roman senate actual became greater under Odoacer and the various Ostrogothic kings then it had under the western empire at least until the gothic wars and its aftermath as the senate was used to help run the state with the Princeps Senatus often acting as the righthand man to the various Kings.

There is also as far as I can tell no connection between the senate and the College of Cardinals which as far as I can tell only came into existence more than a century or two after the senate conducted its last recorded act.

As for the origins of Odoacer it is actually uncertain other than many historians believe he was likely Germanic in origin and not of Hunnic origin which really which isn't that helpful.

What we do know is Odoacer managed to get the support and good relations of not just both the Germanic foederati and the italic roman solders in Italy but the Roman senate and the Chalcedonian religious hierarchy in Italy when and after he seized power.
 

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXtStN8Igvs

What if Hoover became president in 1920...
  • ...and Hitler never comes to power?
  • ...and FDR later loses the election?
  • ...and world had fewer radios and aircraft?
  • ...and the black voters remained with the GOP?
  • ...and he doesn't deport Mexicans?
  • ...and serves three terms?
 
Last edited:
Alt history idea for a colonial 'Thailand'.

The year is 1435 and it has been two years since the Chinese Treasure fleets stopped visiting and it s74 years too early for the Portuguese to arrive.

Nakhon Si Thammarat, a city state that blurs the line between tributary, client and outright subject of the Ayutthaya Kingdom has no shortage of ports. Missing the wealth and unique goods brought in by the Treasure Fleet and hoping to emulate their success a local leader funds explorative expeditions.

One of these expeditions sails farther South than any other, cast adrift and lands upon the continent of Sahul as the Makasar sailors would call it. Marooned only for a time, they manage to hit it off with the locals to an extent and while repairing their vessel, a skilled surveyor finds hints of minrerals. Specifically iron ore and silver, the latter of which is used to make the kingdoms bullet money and is of great interest when they return home.

Nakhon Si Thammarat manages to keep their efforts on the downlow for sometime, building ports in the two areas they found silver. Their ties with the locals vary wildly, though many find themselves pressganged into varying degree of servitude, though some nations were able to circle around this fate by becoming intermediaries, using their skills with the land, language and battle to keep themselves independent at the expense of their neighbors.

This program comes to and end in the year of 1450, two years after the ascension of Borommatrailokkanat (King of White Elephants) and 59 ears before the Portuguese would arrive. His reforms of the bureaucracy and a successful campaign against Lan Na gave him great prestige and allowed him to notice this hidden little project. Rather than end it, he sought to expand it, sending more ships, soldiers and servants South to secure the wealth, turning the small ports & mines & villages into fully fledged cities.

This met with some difficulty of course, but much of the leg work had already been doe by the workers and the local people, who after the former finally accepted rice could not grow and so could few other plants they knew, instead adapted local plants and horticulture to their needs. This led to increasing fields of Kangaroo Grass, especially in the 'Hamersley Range' with its long rivers, and a work cycle built on local seasons and burning methods.

The influx of metals, wealth and new generations of Sahulians and mixed Sahulian-Ayutthaya lineage led to increasing power and populations booms. These factors allowed for more successful wars of expansion both in Sahul (To seek more minerals and laborers) and across the Ayutthaya mainland. So wealthy they had become that by 1480, Borommatrailokkanat had been able to start commissioning cannons based on Chinese models, giving his forces a distinct advantage over their enemies, especially when combined with their powerful navy and large elephant core.

They lacked much in the way of true rivals to the North, with several small states serving as buffers against larger more distant neighbors. Having swallowed up most if not all of their neighbors by 1500 under Ramathibodi_II, who came to power in 1491, their territorial holdings touched up against Ming China and their influence over the waves had become truly a thing to behold. As were their holdings in Sahula, which was steadily seeing shifts outside of their sphere of influence as a knock on effect of their policies.

After that, not sure, though the Portuguese likely arrive they probably can't take Malacca as they did OTL or at least not as easily, but the island nations might welcome their protection, feeling them the lesser evil to the Ayutthaya . However the Ayutthaya are quite rich and well established & likely good clients as the Japanese would later be OTL, & able to put up a good fight even if their canons are a bit outdated, so who can say.

Thoughts?
 
I like it, Southeast Asia doesn't really get a lot of attention in alternate history scenarios. I doubt the Iberian powers will be able to become as dominant in Indian ocean trade as they did in OTL. IIRC, the main reason they were so successful in OTL is because the great land powers of Asia regarded the sea as a "merchant's domain" and were uninterested, despite the great wealth of the Indian Ocean trade, in launching state-backed efforts to control the waves.
 
Texas90 said:
I like it, Southeast Asia doesn't really get a lot of attention in alternate history scenarios. I doubt the Iberian powers will be able to become as dominant in Indian ocean trade as they did in OTL. IIRC, the main reason they were so successful in OTL is because the great land powers of Asia regarded the sea as a "merchant's domain" and were uninterested, despite the great wealth of the Indian Ocean trade, in launching state-backed efforts to control the waves.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Thanks, so glad you like it and gosh so completely agreed, Southeast Asia really gets the short end of the stick which feels weird given everything and especially with Thailand given they avoided colonization. I'm very happy yo see its not just me who think s the Iberian powers will be stymied by this turns of events; as it is I figure they will make some inroads in Modern day Indonesia. But that its a balancing act because being a protectorate stuck between two powers sucks and so people might decide to lean towards the Ayutthaya if their new 'allies' are too pushy. That is also very interesting to know, thanks, it lines up well with elements I'd heard about previously and it makes the 'discovery' of Sahul by merchants more fitting too.
 
I'd have my doubts, Leisler's rebellion was from what I gathered in many ways a Dutch uprising and while their other uprisings around that period such as an anti-Catholic rebellion in Maryland and a Puritan revolt against the dominion of New England getting such groups to work together would be unlikely given the ethnic and religious differences between the groups.

It's also unlikely they would be able to get the other colonies on board for a go at independence if they could get along which would likely have the end result of the other colonies opposing them with military force on top of any English forces sent.
 
What would be the implications of a less successful than OTL Columbian Voyage?

Columbus got really lucky OTL. First, he bumbled into the America's, saving himself from a Voyage across the Pacific. Second, he didn't hit any hurricanes. Third, he had good winds. If Columbus had stalled out or been smashed by a storm then obviously there would be no follow up voyages.

At the same time, if Columbus had landed somewhere else I also suspect that subsequent exploration and colonization of thr America's would have been delayed. From my book Conquistador Voices, Columbus found gold in the Dominican Republic/Haiti, and that, plus rumors of Mexican wealth, were IMO the main draw for him and the Spanish.

Absent gold, one imagines Europe following the pattern seen in North America- the coasts would be charted and you'd see some trade posts established, but outright settler colonialism would be seriously delayed by at least a century if not indefinitely. Given the wealth and population density of Mesoamerica and the Andes, this probably means that you don't get an outright conquest of either the Inca or the Aztecs (or whichever native states replace them) by Europe.
 
Last edited:
Undead Martyr said:
What would be the implications of a less successful than OTL Columbian Voyage?

Columbus got really lucky OTL. First, he bumbled into the America's, saving himself from a Voyage across the Pacific. Second, he didn't hit any hurricanes. Third, he had good winds. If Columbus had stalled out or been smashed by a storm then obviously there would be no follow up voyages.

At the same time, if Columbus had landed somewhere else I also suspect that subsequent exploration and colonization of thr America's would have been delayed. From my book Conquistador Voices, Columbus found gold in the Dominican Republic/Haiti, and that, plus rumors of Mexican wealth, were IMO the main draw for him and the Spanish.

Absent gold, one imagines Europe following the pattern seen in North America- the coasts would be charted and you'd see some trade posts established, but outright settler colonialism would be seriously delayed by at least a century if not indefinitely. Given the wealth and population density of Mesoamerica and the Andes, this probably means that you don't get an outright conquest of either the Inca or the Aztecs (or whichever native states replace them) by Europe.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Its a wonderful premise, as it is and it pains me to say it, the best case scenario would still likely be him landing on the "new world" but far away from any evidence of gold.

As you say, then there's only nominal interest in the area, as it impedes their way to China and doesn't seem worth much, so minor trading ports, some more exploration, trappers and the like maybe would be the norm.

This means the horrid diseases do get released but without all the accompanying war, torture, slavery, starvation and civilization destroying shit being done by the invaders and thus the people can whether the first wave and bounce back somewhat before the Europeans have the chance to take advantage of things.

There would definitely still be eventual interest in taking gold, growing sugar and the like, but its delay or the more minor investments would again be very helpful.

What's more, this would likely indirectly weaken Europe cos a big part of why they could suddenly step to the Ottoman's was all that "new world" gold and prestige letting several states unite against the Ottomans and defeat them, Take away the gold and prestige and even if the union is formed it, it may well lose or at least be a much longer, bloodier war, further dragging out colonization.

As it is, the Aztecs might still get the short end of the stick as the instability from disease would be rough on their empire built on sand, they could potentially bounce back but they might not given how unpopular they were. The other Mesoamerican states would likely have their own issues, but none would be at as much risk as the Aztecs. The Tawaintinsuyu would stand a much better chance than anyone and likely be local hegemons even once the Europeans start heavily investing in the area as it was pure luck that let the Spanish take over as they did.

Really the possibilities are manifold, but overall, I definitely think this would be the nominally work out OK, or at least less terribly than OTL.
 
I'd imagine the English, French and Dutch would still try to look for a northwest passage that could be used and I'd generally suspect they would still end up eventually setting up colonies but there would be less of a drive to push south of what is now Virginia.

The Carolina and Georgia colonies in essence were both established in part to act as bastions against Spain but with less Spanish interest in the Americas it's quite possible what became North Carolina would just remain a southern part of Virginia given the first settlements there were via land grants via the Virginia legislature.
 
Last edited:
It would very much be an elegant solution to have Columbus miss his mark that much more and interact mainly with the northernmost parts of the Bahamas with like the Abacos Islands and the Atlantic coast of Florida with some harrowing adventure of mutiny, acrimony between leaders of the expedition, and like getting caught up in Bermuda for a spell.
 
Given what happened to the Mississippians despite so little penetration that far into the North American Interior, I would not discount what Virgin Field epedemics may do without further ugliness. However the desely populated bits of Mesoamarica would have a far better chance of bouncing back and holding onto continuity without the intelligencia getting slaughtered as everyone else gets hauled to the mines in Job Lots.

Alane1 said:
I'd imagine the English, French and Dutch would still try to look for a northwest passage that could be used and I'd generally suspect they would still end up eventually setting up colonies but there would be less of a drive to push south of what is now Virginia.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The possibility of North American Colonization being more weighted towards fur trappers and exiled religious dissidents than younger sons trying to make their fortune with cash crop plantations is a rather massive change.
 
htgriffin said:
Given what happened to the Mississippians despite so little penetration that far into the North American Interior, I would not discount what Virgin Field epedemics may do without further ugliness. However the desely populated bits of Mesoamarica would have a far better chance of bouncing back and holding onto continuity without the intelligencia getting slaughtered as everyone else gets hauled to the mines in Job Lots.

The possibility of North American Colonization being more weighted towards fur trappers and exiled religious dissidents than younger sons trying to make their fortune with cash crop plantations is a rather massive change.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You'd might still get the historical mix of towns, plantations, noble estates, tenant farmers and yeoman famers in the Chesapeake and Albemarle sound regions that existed historally just not the Barbados influenced mega plantations that dominated colonies of the deep south, I think.

So likely more attempts to recreate England in the new world in the southern reaches, perhaps with Maryland still being founded as a catholic refuge, Puritans in the north with the Quakers, Mennonites and Amish in the middle along with the Dutch and Swedes?

Alternatively, perhaps Mary doesn't die and has children so Elisbeth the first never becomes queen leading England and Wales to largely stay majority catholic without Elisbeth's policies strangling and Catholicism until it became a minority religion.

Then come colonization time perhaps there is a situation with England's American colonies being religiously divided with Puritans in the northern colonies while the southern colonies are catholic and the middle colonies being a mix of different religions.
 
'Italian Hanseatic League'.

That is, the Italian maritime republics form their own "mercantile confederation" to provide common defense and facilitate free-trade networks in the Med. Might even come to rival the actual Hanseatic League some day, depending on how successful their alliance is.
 
Zyobot said:
'Italian Hanseatic League'.

That is, the Italian maritime republics form their own "mercantile confederation" to provide common defense and facilitate free-trade networks in the Med. Might even come to rival the actual Hanseatic League some day, depending on how successful their alliance is.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The cities all hated each other's guts and would probably rather choke out than cooperate without a hegemon or unifying threat (and I'm not sure about the latter) to force them to play nice. Think White Sox/Red Sox or Eagles/Steelers but with crossbows and courtesans.

Fighting other Italians has been Italy's national pastime since before Rome. It's why I love them.:p
 
Last edited:
htgriffin said:
Given what happened to the Mississippians despite so little penetration that far into the North American Interior, I would not discount what Virgin Field epedemics may do without further ugliness. However the desely populated bits of Mesoamarica would have a far better chance of bouncing back and holding onto continuity without the intelligencia getting slaughtered as everyone else gets hauled to the mines in Job Lots.

The possibility of North American Colonization being more weighted towards fur trappers and exiled religious dissidents than younger sons trying to make their fortune with cash crop plantations is a rather massive change.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Would there potentially still be Caribbean Colonies? Sugar was a major cash crop, after all, and it's probsbly a bit easier for Spain et al to conquer e.g. Cuba than Mexico (and more reason to do so). Of course it wojld probably be rather more drawn out, a bit like the conquest of the Canaries.

Without looking at Europe the broader implications are difficult to parse out, but I'd also suggest that China would in the long run be almost as affected as Europe- a good chunk of the silver strip mined from thr Andes via slave labor got fed into the ravenous beast that was the Ming economy. That doesn't happen in a world where Columhus falls flat on his ass like he deserved, which has all kinds of serious ramifications, even before we consider the implications of a lack of a Colombian Exhange on crops etc.
 
Zyobot said:
'Italian Hanseatic League'.

That is, the Italian maritime republics form their own "mercantile confederation" to provide common defense and facilitate free-trade networks in the Med. Might even come to rival the actual Hanseatic League some day, depending on how successful their alliance is.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Obviously not all - the trading oligarchies (such as Venice, Pisa, and Genoa) are too fierce control over trade routes, and their location does not allow for an alliance. More democratic states like Florence (where manufacturing and banking play a leading role) will not want to ally with them.
 
Thoughts on the following TL?
forums.sufficientvelocity.com

Nothing to Lose but Your Chains! / a German Revolution TL

Nothing to Lose but Your Chains! After putting some thought into it, I've decided to start posting my timeline about a successful German Revolution of 1918 here for people who can't or won't use AH.com. Given the well-earned popularity of @The Laurent's Spartacus Rising quest, I figure some...
forums.sufficientvelocity.com forums.sufficientvelocity.com

  • The International Communists of Germany remain independent from the Spartacists while the non-SPD left win several other election victories.
  • The Spartacist Uprising never occurs in January.
  • Berlin police chief Eichhorn isn't sacked until much later.
  • The Freikorps are disavowed after they invade Poland.
  • Liebknecht, Luxemburg, and several other leftists are still alive.
  • The Kapp Putsch successfully turns Ebert into a puppet, which in turn escalates the crisis into a full civil war.
 
Last edited:
Zam said:
Ethiopia-Japanese Alliance
Revised Timeline 2
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ethiopia-Japanese Alliance
Revised Timeline 3​

July - December 1933:
Hitler begins his vast rearmament of Germany policy, an act backed and sponsored by nearly one hundred and fifty American companies. This decision received some critique, both from Europe in general and even among Germans given their ties to Japan, but their money was deemed a suitable balm for that 'wound'.

Deciding that with so many other nations busy in the South and Germany liable to only grow to be more of a problem, Stalin felt there would not be a more ideal time and so Russia would launch their invasion of Poland in late July. The isolated nation putting forth an aggressive defense, but straining against the overwhelming size of their opponent, let alone minor technical advantages.

Early into the renewed war, Turkey would smuggle a small host of planes and other supplies to Ethiopia via the recently dubbed, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia; the act was more a token gesture than a great cost, but it would leave potential doors open in the future. They would also begin turning a blind eye to any of their own ships seeking to undermine the Italians naval presence, provided they returned with worthwhile goods, or left nothing behind. Only a handful of these raids took place, but they were effective.

As the Italians continued their aggressive push into Ethiopia, the British and French Colonies began more aggressive maneuvers than mere border skirmishes, pushing deeper into the country, though always watching their backs for potential rebellions or sabotage. In response, Ethiopia adopted more extreme means of defense, scorched earth tactics became the norm and more soldiers began embracing their Japanese Allies zealous ideals, their bloody sacrifices and explosive raids proving a harrowing force for the Europeans.

Despite their claims to neutrality, the Dutch East Indies did provide free passage and cover to Australian vessels, allowing for a blood ambush and the destruction of a Japanese warship. This act was deemed a suitable cause for justifying war, and having already been in talks with representative from rebel movements across the islands, Japan and Thailand's militaries began to engage the Dutch East Indies, even arming the rebels with weapons taken from the already defeated Europeans forces elsewhere.

These new forces and a flood of recruits as territories began to be 'freed' would soon see the Imperial Army's size grow by nearly ninety thousand soldiers. Skirmishes with Australian and Dutch vessels were but the prelude to the arrival of English, French and a handful of Italian naval vessels however; these allied forces were quick to reinforce Burma in its war against Thailand, and push into the islands.
 
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top